Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chark the Shark 04-18-07, 11:34 AM	Is there any reason why a Fire Elemental would NOT be able to perform a coup de grace on a helpless (paralyzed) victim?
RavenDrake 04-18-07, 11:40 AM	Well, as written, a Coup de gras is available ONLY to characters using a Melee Weapon, bow, or crossbow. You cannot, technically, make such attacks with either unarmed strikes or natural weapons. As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target. You automatically hit and score a critical hit. Edit: Added relelvent quote.
Chark the Shark 04-18-07, 11:41 AM	Awesome....thanks
draconic_swine 04-18-07, 11:43 AM	RavenDrake is right, but I don't really see a reason to not let natural attacks deliver a coup de grace, if it is a melee attack and deals lethal damage.
Zherog 04-18-07, 11:48 AM	I disagree with RavenDrake. A natural attack is a melee attack, and therefore a valid weapon to use in a CdG.
Chark the Shark 04-18-07, 12:16 PM	A natural attack is not a melee weapon.... From the SRD Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent
Chark the Shark 04-18-07, 12:17 PM	If a creature has 'improved unarmed strike' or some such feat THEN they would be considered as armed with melee weapons.
Zherog 04-18-07, 12:46 PM	A natural attack is not a melee weapon.... From the SRD Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent You haven't demonstrated a natural weapon is not a melee weapon (even taking into consideration your post below the one I quoted). Show me where it says a natural weapon used to make a melee attack is not a melee weapon.
Chark the Shark 04-18-07, 12:52 PM	I will try to track it down...... Melee Weapon - sword, dagger, etc Natural Weapn - claw, bite, etc they are completely and totally separate and different...thus the reason they are differentiated from each other. They can both be used to make a 'melee attack'. That is like asking why is water wet.
mvincent 04-18-07, 12:54 PM	A natural attack is not a melee weapon....They are typically call Natural Weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons), and they are typically used in melee, so I could not call your statement a truism. Indeed, the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons) say: "Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed"
Chark the Shark 04-18-07, 12:57 PM	Nowhere in does it state that 'natural weapons' are 'melee weapons'...which are needed to make CDG I never meant that creatures with 'natural weapons' were considered unarmed...that would make them incapable of AoO
calvinNhobbes 04-18-07, 01:37 PM	As per the PHB and glossary page: melee weapon: A handheld weapon designed for close combat. It would appear by a strict reading of the RAW that you can only coup de grace with a manufactured weapon (unless you want to argue that natural weapons are hand held). Does this make any sense? Nope. Do I allow coup de grace with natural weapons? Absolutely. EDIT: The rulebooks are very loose with their interchangable use of weapon and attack, similar to unarmed strike and unarmed attack. Most of the time it doesn't matter, other times you end up with rather ridiculous situtations such as this. EDIT: I feel all the rulebooks should have a disclaimer on the front: "These books are not written by lawyers. Please use common sense."
Tsuul 04-18-07, 02:35 PM	Is there any reason why a Fire Elemental would NOT be able to perform a coup de grace on a helpless (paralyzed) victim?Intelligence?
Cifer 04-18-07, 02:53 PM	@Chark I know this may be a bad idea, but try to go for some logic here. If you have a pack of wolves finally bringing down an opponent - are they capable of biting though their prey's throat? I'd say they are. When you've got a pitfiend with claws longer and sharper than your own sword - is he capable of stabbing them into your heart? I'd say he is. If you have a colossal dragon with a mouth bigger than your entire body - is it capable of biting your head clean off when you lie perfectly still? I'd say it is. Sorry, but to me this seems like a thinly veiled cry for help because you don't want to see your character burn in a situation that doesn't suit you. If you want to lawyer rules, do so, but do so outside of the forums. Intelligence? Elementals range from 4 to 10. Do you forbid half-orcs from couping if they've got less than 5 int?
mvincent 04-18-07, 03:00 PM	Nowhere in does it state that 'natural weapons' are 'melee weapons'...which are needed to make CDGThe rules state that they are weapons, and that they can be used in melee. This could be interpreted as constituting a 'melee weapon' (and I'm unsure why I need to point this out). Note that I have frequently seen creatures use natural attacks to CdG. Example: the Nabassu in "Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss" has only natural weapons, yet is expected to conduct coup de grace attacks per it's description.
jaelis 04-18-07, 03:05 PM	A strict reading of "melee weapon" according to the glossary causes all kinds of trouble. It is far more sensible to generally interpret "melee weapon" as "a weapon used in melee."
Kouk 04-18-07, 03:09 PM	Do you forbid half-orcs from couping if they've got less than 5 int? Hehe, it is more fun if they just keep hacking at the body normally isn't it?
Nephlite 04-18-07, 03:11 PM	If a creature has 'improved unarmed strike' or some such feat THEN they would be considered as armed with melee weapons. Nope, only Monk's unarmed strikes count as melee weapons for spells and effects (such as feats or CDG)
Tsuul 04-18-07, 03:44 PM	Intelligence? Elementals range from 4 to 10. Do you forbid half-orcs from couping if they've got less than 5 int?Pretty much. CDG is a bit more difficult the putting round pegs in square holes. Where would I draw the line? I don't know. 10 Int should be able to think of it. But a 4?
Chark the Shark 04-18-07, 03:46 PM	Nope, only Monk's unarmed strikes count as melee weapons for spells and effects (such as feats or CDG) That would then seem to clinch it then....only a monk's unarmed strikes can be considered 'melee weapons' That is a bit tongue in cheek and I am "kind of" being lawyery (if that is a term) The fact of the matter, in this case, is that the creature is a Fire Elemental and can only burn or slam...hardly the kind of attacks which are easy to imagine can do CDG....for me. Burn 1d6 damage....Slam is not precise enough for me to imagine CDG capable.
Chark the Shark 04-18-07, 03:48 PM	For that matter....I would think that a Fire Elemental would not be capable of coming up with the action Not because of Int but because they are immune to CDG and Crits (no discernible anatomy) and would have no frame of context. How is THAT for lawyering?
ScipioX 04-18-07, 04:08 PM	I agree with Chark here. Natural weapons should be able to CdG. (despite the RAW). However, a fire elemental shouldn't be CdG'ing even if they are smart enough. Unless they have encountered lots of fleshy beings before, they would probably be unaware of how to CdG a person. In addition, flaming limbs aren't exactly the kind of weapons that normally CdG.
MerlintheTuna 04-18-07, 04:34 PM	Nope, only Monk's unarmed strikes count as melee weapons for spells and effects (such as feats or CDG)No, a Monk's unarmed strikes count as manufactured weapons. "Melee weapon" doesn't appear in the description. Come on now. A melee weapon is a weapon that is used to attack in melee. A natural weapon is typically used in melee (aside: frigging Harpoon Spiders), ergo it's a melee weapon. For craps's sake, you can Coup de Grace someone by stabbing him with an arrow even if you're going to be picky about using the PHB's glossary for a definition of "melee weapon." You wouldn't allow a bear to do it with his giant bear claws?
Chark the Shark 04-18-07, 04:37 PM	Ok - naturall weapons should be able to CDG but I do NOT think that a Fire Elemental should be able to do so. Posting a new thread.
Lanoitakude 04-18-07, 08:12 PM	I don't think a creature should have an Int of atleast 4 to be able to use a coup de grace. An above example used wolves. Most predatory animals know the soft spots of their prey (most of the time, the throat). It would be reasonable to assume that any predatory animal can make a coup de grace based on instinct alone. Axe weilding orcs with 4 Int should be smart enough to know a squishy part on their enemies, whether or not they will grasp the tactical advantages and disadvantages of performing a coup de grace is a whole 'nother story.
Raukolinae 04-19-07, 03:39 AM	I think that an intellegent elemental would know a little bit about humanoid anatomy, to the extent that it would figure "if i bludgeon this squishy thing's hard enough it will die". Of course, always subject to debate. A small or medium elemental, certainly not, but I think a greater or elder elemental might have had the neccesary contact. Either way, I definetly agree that natural weapons should be able to perform a Coup de grace. For me the simple fact that its a natural weapon, and its melee, works, so long as it can deal lethal damage, another prequisite for a coup de grace. So unarmed attacks not made by someone with improved unarmed wouldn't work.