Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kage_no_Neko 12-05-06, 09:53 PM	I know the spiked chain is either loved or hated, and I am not going to change that. Personally I like the feel of the spiked chain but have two major issues with it: one, with its high damage and many abilities it is too much compared to other weapons (in the PHB and pretty much anywhere); two, as written in the PHB, it is the only single weapon possibly worth giving up a feat to become proficient in. So, I decided to try my hand at fixing these issues. As a side note, the three other weapons listed below originally came from Oriental Adventures and the stats fall under OGL as far as I can tell. ________________________________________ Chain Weapons Two-Handed Exotic Melee Weapons NAME Cost DMG(S) DMG(M) Crit Weight Type -------------- ------ ------- ------- ---- ------ -------------------- Kusari-gama 25 gp 1d4/1d3 1d6/1d4 x2 5 lb. Slashing/Bludgeoning Kwanga 25 gp 1d3/1d3 1d4/1d4 x2 3 lb. Slashing/Bludgeoning Manriki-gusari 20 gp 1d4/1d4 1d6/1d6 x2 7 lb. Bludgeoning Spiked chain 25 gp 1d4/1d4 1d6/1d6 x2 10 lb. Piercing Common Characteristics: Chain weapons can be used either as a double weapon or a reach weapon. You can fight with them as with fighting with two weapons, incurring all the normal attack penalties as if fighting with a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. In this case you can only strike adjacent opponents. You may use either end as the primary weapon, the other end is the off-hand weapon. Irregardless of the size of the chain weapon in relation to you, you may not use a chain weapon as a double weapon one-handed. If you use the chain weapon as a reach weapon, you make strike an opponent up to 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike other weapons with reach you may use the chain weapon against adjacent foes. In this case you can only use one end of the chain weapon effectively; you cannot use it as a double weapon. Because they can be used to wrap around an opponents leg or other limb, you can make trip attacks with chain weapons. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the chain weapon to avoid being tripped. When using a chain weapon, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to avoid being disarmed if your attempt fails). You may use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with chain weapons sized for you, even though they are not light weapons. Kusari-gama: A kusari-gama is a length of chain with a kama on one end and a small weight on the other. The kama end does 1d6 slashing damage; the weighted end does 1d4 bludgeoning damage. Kwanga: A kwanga is a light chain with weight on one end and a sharpened grappling hook on the other. In addition to its uses in combat, a kwanga can also be used as a climbing tool. It is equivalent to 10 feet of rope with a grappling hook attached. Manriki-gusari: A manriki-gusari is simply a length of chain with weights at both ends. Spiked chain: See the picture in the PHB on page 119. ________________________________________ Exotic Weapon Proficiency (chain weapons) You are proficient with chain weapons. You understand how to use them in combat. Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1, Dex 13 Benefit: Because they share common characteristics and common fighting styles, only a single exotic weapon proficiency is necessary to be proficient with all chain weapons. You may make attack rolls with chain weapons normally. Normal: A character who uses a weapon with which he or she is not proficient takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls. Special: Proficiency with chain weapons allows you to threaten your entire extended range when using a stretching weapon of fighting with a melee weapon with the striking bracelets soulmeld bound to your hand chakra.
draconic_swine 12-06-06, 11:23 AM	I'm a part of the camp that doesn't hate the spiked chain, although I do think that it is slightly overpowered, but what you have here is very good. I've always thought the double-weapon or reach weapon is a better mechanic, and gives the weapons good flavour, especially compared to just about every other weapon. The only thing I'd change is to make it when you use it as a reach weapon, it is solely a reach weapon - no hitting adjacent weapons. That way choosing between a double-weapon and reach is even more of a tactical decision.
Kage_no_Neko 12-06-06, 06:06 PM	I'm a part of the camp that doesn't hate the spiked chain, although I do think that it is slightly overpowered, but what you have here is very good. Thank you. The only thing I'd change is to make it when you use it as a reach weapon, it is solely a reach weapon - no hitting adjacent weapons. But this is part of the feel of the weapon, being flexible and dynamic. Part of the reason I dropped the damage of the spiked chain was make this ability viable without overpowering the weapon.
Chrono Nexus 12-06-06, 06:38 PM	http://www.geocities.com/nmccormick100/chainer.jpg This isn't really on topic, but I thought I might share it besides.
dengarbountyhunter 12-06-06, 06:51 PM	I like your system! It's based off the DMG's kusari-gama, ain't it? Well, it does make the spiked chain more balanced, though I'm not sure that a single feat is enough for all four weapons... It makes sense because they're not much different from each other, and yet... Oh well, it's already better than the original spiked chain.
Ilion 12-06-06, 09:57 PM	Very good treatment. I could see making the user choose either reach or adjacent each round, but say that if you have the Weapon Focus feat for the weapon you're using, you can use it on adjacent or non-adjacent targets both. Regardless, as written I like it a lot. Good job.
Kage_no_Neko 12-07-06, 06:07 PM	Once again thank you. It's based off the DMG's kusari-gama, ain't it? No, I forgot there were any asian weapons in the DMG. All three of the other weapons (kusari-gama, kwanga, and manriki-gusari) are from Oriental Adventures. Oh, and Chrono Nexus, that beautiful picture is not off topic at all.
Waterhammer 12-07-06, 11:20 PM	It should be noted that the spiked chain in the PHB is not a double weapon. Nor should it be. A chain weapon used TWF style would be as much a threat to the wielder as to the enemy he faced. The kusari-gama, is a bit different case; the shaft, and sickle-like end are not flexible, and so are controllable. Thus the kama end could be used to help control the weighted chain end. If you doubt my words, go to the hardware store and buy some chain. Attack a post or similar object with the chain. DO NOT hit yourself, being hit with a chain is most unpleasant, you won't like it.
Ultimatecalibur 12-08-06, 12:35 AM	It should be noted that the spiked chain in the PHB is not a double weapon. Nor should it be. A chain weapon used TWF style would be as much a threat to the wielder as to the enemy he faced. *chough*3.0*chough* The kusari-gama, is a bit different case; the shaft, and sickle-like end are not flexible, and so are controllable. Thus the kama end could be used to help control the weighted chain end. The basic idea behind using a chain as a double weapon is that you are holding the chain about 1 and a half feet away from each of the weighted ends. If you doubt my words, go to the hardware store and buy some chain. Attack a post or similar object with the chain. DO NOT hit yourself, being hit with a chain is most unpleasant, you won't like it. :rolleye2: The difficulty fighting with the weapon is what makes it exotic (-4 penalty) and I doubt you are what is termed "proficient". Plus your hardware store chain is an improvised version (another -4 penalty): It may not have the properly weighted ends, to light/heavy, etc. Cat Shadow, I like your idea of merging all the chain weapon proficiencies into one group. I had thought of a similar idea for hand and a half weapons (bastard sword, dwarven waraxe, katana, etc.). Though I do have an idea for an additional limiter: You may only apply 1xstr to damage when wielded 2 handed.
Grizzled Gryphon 12-08-06, 02:12 AM	If you doubt my words, go to the hardware store and buy some chain. Attack a post or similar object with the chain. DO NOT hit yourself, being hit with a chain is most unpleasant, you won't like it. One tiny little problem with this idea. We, unlike our characters, have not spent hours upon hours of time training under someone who is profecient with any given weapon. So, yes, your average person is not going to do much of anything to said post, but they may very well do a LOT to themselves. That is the same as telling someone to jump into a formula 1 race car, and do a lap in qualifying time. Without that training, just not going to happen. However, there IS a good chance that they will wreck the car and kill themselves trying.
Ryu Katsuragi 12-08-06, 02:21 AM	That is the same as telling someone to jump into a formula 1 race car, and do a lap in qualifying time. Without that training, just not going to happen. However, there IS a good chance that they will wreck the car and kill themselves trying. Then, they should have took Vehicle Proficiency (F1 Racer) rather than Skill Focus (Suicide). :P
Kage_no_Neko 12-08-06, 08:21 PM	It should be noted that the spiked chain in the PHB is not a double weapon. Nor should it be. If you look at the picture in the PHB for the spiked chain what you see is spikes on chains at both ends, which connect to large ring-like handles for the hands which are connected together by sections of chain to an even larger ring. If we assume this picture is remotely like a real weapon that has existed somewhere, then the only way to get a 10 foot reach would be to release with one hand to choke up on one end of the weapon while swinging the other end at range. To control the chain at the end of the swing you are going to have to spread your hands back out. Therefore at some times the user is going to have his or her hands spread out to control the fine movements of the chains at both ends (effectively two-weapon fighting), at other times the user has choked up on one end allowing longer swings but less control (reach weapon, but no extra attacks). So in this way it makes sense. Plus all the other chain weapons in Oriental Adventures have this ability, so I figured with the reduced damage for the spiked chain it made sense to make it a universal ability.
Ryu Katsuragi 12-08-06, 08:43 PM	If you look at the picture in the PHB for the spiked chain what you see is spikes on chains at both ends, which connect to large ring-like handles for the hands which are connected together by sections of chain to an even larger ring. If we assume this picture is remotely like a real weapon that has existed somewhere, then the only way to get a 10 foot reach would be to release with one hand to choke up on one end of the weapon while swinging the other end at range. To control the chain at the end of the swing you are going to have to spread your hands back out. Therefore at some times the user is going to have his or her hands spread out to control the fine movements of the chains at both ends (effectively two-weapon fighting), at other times the user has choked up on one end allowing longer swings but less control (reach weapon, but no extra attacks). So in this way it makes sense. Plus all the other chain weapons in Oriental Adventures have this ability, so I figured with the reduced damage for the spiked chain it made sense to make it a universal ability. It makes sense, but DnD isn't about sense. By the pictures,a greatclub is laiden with huge nails - but it does bludgeoning damage?
Kage_no_Neko 12-09-06, 12:07 AM	It makes sense, but DnD isn't about sense. By the pictures,a greatclub is laiden with huge nails - but it does bludgeoning damage? Poke, poke ... :confused: ... WHAM! Guess trying to do damage with those spikes on one side just wasn't working for you, you ol' ogre you :D.
Waterhammer 12-09-06, 03:14 PM	Your ideas for chain weapons do have merit Kage_no_Neko. I do tend to feel that a chain weapon would be hard to control, and use in combat. Dual wielding it would be nigh impossible, even for Conan the Barbarian. I think a spiked chain might look more like this: http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p233/bngraves/spikedchain.jpg Grant-West is a fine artist, but apparently knows little about weapons, or the dynamics of a swinging chain.
Kage_no_Neko 12-09-06, 05:58 PM	In real life I definitely agree with you. Looking up manrikigusari online (the ultimate reference, I know :P), I could not find any of them longer than 4 feet. That said, this is fantasy. So with training a truly heroic character should easily be able to wield a long flexible chain weapon atleast 6 feet in length with weights/spikes/blades at the ends and not be in any real danger to himself or any of his allies nearby. That is the weapon type I was thinking of when I created this alternative.
Ultimatecalibur 12-09-06, 11:32 PM	waterhammer, just to give you something to think about but what if you put a spike on the non-bladed end of the chain in your version? That could make it viable as a double weapon. Oh this was grabbed from wikipedia: Additional applications include the composite use of a stabbing weapon ("spike and chain") in conjunction with the chain weapon. In this usage, the chain component is typically of longer length (circa 6-10 feet) weighted at both ends, either of which can be used individually or both of which may be applied simultaneously, when the user applies a center grip on the chain. When applied in conjunction with the spike (or knife, e.g., "tonfa") there is often applied a complex, circular, swinging/ensaring approach to the application of the weighted chain coupled with capturing and drawing the opponent into stabbing range. This composite use of "spike and chain" relies on the speed and reach (longer chain) to keep the opponent out of close range contact until either a controlling capture with the chain is accomplished or the opponent is disabled and, in either case, the spike (or knife) can then be applied to deliver a killing stroke. This application offers the advantage of highly concealable weapons of very different capacities that can be used against opponents at short and medium ranges. I maybe the source for the idea of the spiked chain in D&D, but an artist did not know what one looked like.
Waterhammer 12-10-06, 02:52 AM	"That said, this is fantasy. So with training a truly heroic character should easily be able to wield a long flexible chain weapon atleast 6 feet in length with weights/spikes/blades at the ends and not be in any real danger to himself or any of his allies nearby. That is the weapon type I was thinking of when I created this alternative." If I were a player in your campaign, Kage_no_Neko; I would have no problem with your rules on chain weapons. They seem solid and viable. I just do it a bit different. No big deal. "I think maybe the source for the idea of the spiked chain in D&D, but an artist did not know what one looked like." Ultimatecalibur: The spiked chain is a fantasy weapon, it exists nowhere but in D&D. I think it is a viable weapon though, just not in the form illustrated in the PHB. The one shown there would work, except it would need to be harmless chain on one end rather than doubled as shown, in the illustration. I think the artist got caught in the trap if desiring symmetry.
Chrono Nexus 12-10-06, 02:59 AM	Hmm... that gave me a scary idea for a modern chain weapon. The "ripper"- Uses magnetically charged barbed chain loops. It charges up an adapted rail cannon to cause the loops to spin- the spinning barbed loops plow through enemies. It isn't practical, of course, but it would be fun!
Kage_no_Neko 12-10-06, 09:35 AM	Hmm... that gave me a scary idea for a modern chain weapon. The "ripper"- Uses magnetically charged barbed chain loops. It charges up an adapted rail cannon to cause the loops to spin- the spinning barbed loops plow through enemies. It isn't practical, of course, but it would be fun! Wouldn't that be considered more of a flail though? Sure flails are chain weapons, but not quite the same vein as the ones here. ________________________________________ I have added a reference that having proficiency in chain weapons allows you to threaten to your extended range with a new soulmeld, striking bracelets, I created.
Balthanon 12-14-06, 12:39 PM	This doesn't really fit in with the core rules for learning how to utilize exotic weapons. If you're using Weapon Groups (UA) or removing the exotic weapon proficiency feat altogether for similar groupings, then I could see this fitting into a game. I also think I prefer utilizing a class feature (as was done in 3.0 with the Chain Master) or even just an additional feat for the double weapon fighting aspect. I think if you put one or the other (double weapon or fighting at all ranges of the reach) in a separate feat, it might help to balance this out.
Kage_no_Neko 12-14-06, 01:00 PM	This doesn't really fit in with the core rules for learning how to utilize exotic weapons. If you're using Weapon Groups (UA) or removing the exotic weapon proficiency feat altogether for similar groupings, then I could see this fitting into a game. As I said, I do not like the fact that you have to give up an entire feat to get proficiency in a single weapon, as EWP is currently written. I prefer the weapon groups from UA, but this was my attempt to work within the current form to allow a player to acquire pretty much one weapon (just change the damage type it does) as one feat and still have that be worthwhile. I also think I prefer utilizing a class feature (as was done in 3.0 with the Chain Master) or even just an additional feat for the double weapon fighting aspect. I think if you put one or the other (double weapon or fighting at all ranges of the reach) in a separate feat, it might help to balance this out. To some extent I agree; but I feel that the attack within reach is equivalent in value to the two-weapon form, and the fact that you can do one or the other makes them effectively a wash, that you have the choice is the bonus. Anyways, the only way to make effective use of the two-weapon form already requires another feat, Two-Weapon Fighting.
King_In_Yellow 01-07-07, 09:35 PM	It should be noted that the spiked chain in the PHB is not a double weapon. Nor should it be. A chain weapon used TWF style would be as much a threat to the wielder as to the enemy he faced. In "Savage Species" they have the Chain Lash which is basically Manriki-gusari which acts as a double weapon which can attack adjacent foes and with reach. King_In_Yellow