Challenge Rating and Party Level [Archive] - Wizards Community

Challenge Rating and Party Level [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jeddi151
11-02-06, 09:59 PM Okay, Scenario. 7 Characters. 5 are level 1, 2 are level 2. I believe using the "party level formula" we end up with like...9/7 = 1.xx party level. This is flawed since the group can handle most CR1 and CR2.

As we explore a cave...we encounter a Polar Bear, CR4. with an AC of 15, this is easy for us to attack. Then the bear full attacks a level 1 fighter, hits it with 2 claws and drops it to -16.

So it this a GM error? System Error? or Dice Bad Luck?

-Carson
Necropolitan
11-02-06, 10:05 PM Okay, Scenario. 7 Characters. 5 are level 1, 2 are level 2. I believe using the "party level formula" we end up with like...9/7 = 1.xx party level. This is flawed since the group can handle most CR1 and CR2.

As we explore a cave...we encounter a Polar Bear, CR4. with an AC of 15, this is easy for us to attack. Then the bear full attacks a level 1 fighter, hits it with 2 claws and drops it to -16.

So it this a GM error? System Error? or Dice Bad Luck?

-Carson

The CR system is a bit flawed, personally.

At lower levels you want to look at the total amount of damage any creature can do to a single player; if it's enough for a single-attack TPK or slaughtering of the group's tank... you'd probably not want to throw it at them.

You generally can't ever just throw monsters are PCs out of the book, there's always a little tailoring required for each individual party to make the encounter challenging, but not uberlethal.
Karak_Nechot
11-03-06, 12:11 AM Okay, Scenario. 7 Characters. 5 are level 1, 2 are level 2. I believe using the "party level formula" we end up with like...9/7 = 1.xx party level. This is flawed since the group can handle most CR1 and CR2.

What 'party level formula' are you refering too?

And, yes, you can easily handle CR 1-2 creatures, however, you should notice that it takes more of them to level up. It's a trade off for the number of players you have, as you do have almost double the number of expected players

As we explore a cave...we encounter a Polar Bear, CR4. with an AC of 15, this is easy for us to attack. Then the bear full attacks a level 1 fighter, hits it with 2 claws and drops it to -16.

That's to be expected. It's a creatures designed to fight PCs of 4th level or so. What you got there is effectively a 'superboss' fight. Just because you have that many players does not make them less likely to die from creatures that are much higher in CR than their level.

So it this a GM error? System Error? or Dice Bad Luck?

I would say a lot of factors, but mostly the GM putting a huge CR creature against a lot of low level PCs. A couple of black bears would have been better, or maybe a bunch of CR 1/2-1 creatures like orcs or gnolls.

The CR system is a bit flawed, personally.

Not if it is used correctly. Yes, there are individual flaws, but overall, the system is pretty sound.

At lower levels you want to look at the total amount of damage any creature can do to a single player; if it's enough for a single-attack TPK or slaughtering of the group's tank... you'd probably not want to throw it at them.

The total damage done should be factored into the CR of the creature.

You generally can't ever just throw monsters are PCs out of the book, there's always a little tailoring required for each individual party to make the encounter challenging, but not uberlethal.

In my games, I throw creatures at the PCs right from the books with virtually no ill effects. Only times it results in a TPK are when bad luck or very poor choices influence the encounter. And that's just a part of the game.
Onikani
11-03-06, 01:12 AM This is flawed since the group can handle most CR1 and CR2.

this is not flawed, RAW states a party of four members should be able to handle 4 encounters a day that are at a Cr equivalent to the party. So with SEVEN char's at level 1.xx you should be able to handle at LEAST 4 encounters of cr1, and most likely due to high number of character, you could handle 4 cr2's without a break.

But as you said, this does not mean you can handle a single CR4.
It was the Dm's fault for including something effectively 3 times your level.
I know this is stretchin it a little, but that's like an 8th level party fighting epic creatures. It shouldn't happen.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jeddi151 11-02-06, 09:59 PM	Okay, Scenario. 7 Characters. 5 are level 1, 2 are level 2. I believe using the "party level formula" we end up with like...9/7 = 1.xx party level. This is flawed since the group can handle most CR1 and CR2. As we explore a cave...we encounter a Polar Bear, CR4. with an AC of 15, this is easy for us to attack. Then the bear full attacks a level 1 fighter, hits it with 2 claws and drops it to -16. So it this a GM error? System Error? or Dice Bad Luck? -Carson
Necropolitan 11-02-06, 10:05 PM	Okay, Scenario. 7 Characters. 5 are level 1, 2 are level 2. I believe using the "party level formula" we end up with like...9/7 = 1.xx party level. This is flawed since the group can handle most CR1 and CR2. As we explore a cave...we encounter a Polar Bear, CR4. with an AC of 15, this is easy for us to attack. Then the bear full attacks a level 1 fighter, hits it with 2 claws and drops it to -16. So it this a GM error? System Error? or Dice Bad Luck? -Carson The CR system is a bit flawed, personally. At lower levels you want to look at the total amount of damage any creature can do to a single player; if it's enough for a single-attack TPK or slaughtering of the group's tank... you'd probably not want to throw it at them. You generally can't ever just throw monsters are PCs out of the book, there's always a little tailoring required for each individual party to make the encounter challenging, but not uberlethal.
Karak_Nechot 11-03-06, 12:11 AM	Okay, Scenario. 7 Characters. 5 are level 1, 2 are level 2. I believe using the "party level formula" we end up with like...9/7 = 1.xx party level. This is flawed since the group can handle most CR1 and CR2. What 'party level formula' are you refering too? And, yes, you can easily handle CR 1-2 creatures, however, you should notice that it takes more of them to level up. It's a trade off for the number of players you have, as you do have almost double the number of expected players As we explore a cave...we encounter a Polar Bear, CR4. with an AC of 15, this is easy for us to attack. Then the bear full attacks a level 1 fighter, hits it with 2 claws and drops it to -16. That's to be expected. It's a creatures designed to fight PCs of 4th level or so. What you got there is effectively a 'superboss' fight. Just because you have that many players does not make them less likely to die from creatures that are much higher in CR than their level. So it this a GM error? System Error? or Dice Bad Luck? I would say a lot of factors, but mostly the GM putting a huge CR creature against a lot of low level PCs. A couple of black bears would have been better, or maybe a bunch of CR 1/2-1 creatures like orcs or gnolls. The CR system is a bit flawed, personally. Not if it is used correctly. Yes, there are individual flaws, but overall, the system is pretty sound. At lower levels you want to look at the total amount of damage any creature can do to a single player; if it's enough for a single-attack TPK or slaughtering of the group's tank... you'd probably not want to throw it at them. The total damage done should be factored into the CR of the creature. You generally can't ever just throw monsters are PCs out of the book, there's always a little tailoring required for each individual party to make the encounter challenging, but not uberlethal. In my games, I throw creatures at the PCs right from the books with virtually no ill effects. Only times it results in a TPK are when bad luck or very poor choices influence the encounter. And that's just a part of the game.
Onikani 11-03-06, 01:12 AM	This is flawed since the group can handle most CR1 and CR2. this is not flawed, RAW states a party of four members should be able to handle 4 encounters a day that are at a Cr equivalent to the party. So with SEVEN char's at level 1.xx you should be able to handle at LEAST 4 encounters of cr1, and most likely due to high number of character, you could handle 4 cr2's without a break. But as you said, this does not mean you can handle a single CR4. It was the Dm's fault for including something effectively 3 times your level. I know this is stretchin it a little, but that's like an 8th level party fighting epic creatures. It shouldn't happen.