Challenging the Barb with the big sword [Archive] - Wizards Community

Challenging the Barb with the big sword [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
quix0te
03-18-06, 04:28 PM I'm GMing a group and one of my players is playing his stereotypical barbarian with a big 2h sword and 18 str. He does 25 dam/hit on average, with a +15/+10 atk. I have to put the ACs in the high 20's before he has a hard time hitting. And then my other melee characters have no chance. Ditto DR.
I'd like to have encounters be challenging for the party, but short of always taking him out with a will save atk, most combats end very quickly when he does 50 damage in the first round or two. And anything thats hard for him, is out of the reach of my rogue, the rogue thief, and the shaman's summoned creatures.
Edymnion
03-18-06, 05:08 PM Use concealment for the straight up miss chance.
Blur, or even mundane darkness or smoke/fog.

Or, he's a barbarian, he will have a low AC, have someone with Improved Init grapple him.

He's a raging barbarian, he's supposed to hit really, really hard. However, he has to trade out the fact that he can't have a really great AC (especially when Raging), and as always, he has to close to melee before he can do anything.

Use ranged attacks outside of 60' (so he can't charge), and then switch to grappling/stunning/snaring up close.
Radijs
03-18-06, 05:54 PM Outside of 80'. Barbarians have fast movement.

A few slabs of grease will also wreck his charge into a good slide.
Dessirris
03-18-06, 05:56 PM Use ranged attacks outside of 60' (so he can't charge), and then switch to grappling/stunning/snaring up close.

Actually, 80 ft's the key number, since barbs get that +10 to base speed, but it's the right idea.

Edit: >_< Sarrnath'd

Even better than keeping out of charge range, go with difficult terrain. A scout is excellent for this, especially. They can move through natural terrain such as heavy underbrush without penalty, while the barbarian has difficulty moving, much less charging through it. Give the scout shot on the run, and bounce in to skirmish range, fire, and the back out of range of a single move for him. With good skills, the scout can even do the same thing from the trees with Brachiation. Can't melee what's 20'+ above your head.
DrMorganes
03-18-06, 06:00 PM Also keep in mind the limits of rage: duration, fatigue, and limited uses per day. Make sure you enforce all three.
Silverthumb128
03-18-06, 06:35 PM Also keep in mind the limits of rage: duration, fatigue, and limited uses per day. Make sure you enforce all three.

Also given the fact that Barbarians can only Rage once per encounter. If you use Calm Emotions, he won't be able to Rage again until the fight is over, and he'll be fatigued. That spell ruins so many Barbarians. :D
Rulebook
03-18-06, 07:11 PM darkness and incorporeal creatures always work too. when he's only hitting maybe 15% as much as he used to he'll get frustrated really fast.

oooh, and OOZES!
equilibrium17
03-18-06, 10:20 PM Some other possibilities:

- Tight spaces. Think kobold or gnome-sized tunnels. Big 2H weapons take serious penalities in spaces like this. This kind of encounter will favor any small-sized PCs.

- Try opponents with really high AC, but low touch AC -- Simplest example would be anything in full plate. This favors spellcasters (many spell attacks rely on a touch or ranged touch).

- Try organized opponents who use good tactics, and give them the feats to match. For example -- a group of elite Hobgoblin warriors, armed with pole arms and bows. The polearmsmean, with feats like Hold the Line form a blocking line, while a back rank of archers with Precise Shot pours on the arrows. If the polearms fight Total Defense, their AC will be very high, making it difficult for the Barb to break through, but the Archers will continue to pour on damage. Very nasty, and forces the Barb and PCs think, work together, and use countertactics -- an area spell to wipe out the pole arm line, ranged fire to punch a hole in the line so the barbarian can get through, etc.
Dark_beebles
03-18-06, 11:40 PM If he power attacks use a guy with disarm, since his attack bonus will be low and easy to make him drop his weapon.

Ray of enfeeblement will work as well its a cheap way to lower his str and with his really low ac from Rage or charging should be quite easy to hit.

Blind him, with glitterdust. Or use Bands of iron or steel...forgot the name but its in the CA even if he makes the save he is entangled..lower ac, no charging, and weaker attack (or just use a mundane net)
mvincent
03-19-06, 12:31 AM Kill him. Seriously; barbarians typically have low AC's, and smart opponent's will likely try to remove them first. And even (big) dumb creatures will often first grapple the most threatening opponent (i.e. the barbarian). Barbarians can have a short life-span unless they are played cautiously (unlikely).

Really though, most classes are capable of massive damage at later levels anyway. Don't be afraid to crank up the competition to provide a challenge. The other players may soon come to appreciate the barbarian's ability to occupy the opposition's attention, and may even chip in to resurrect him constantly.

Or just give the group more ranged or puzzle-type encounters.
Ogre4Hire
03-19-06, 01:02 AM Hit him with a Ray of Enfeablement in the first round. That puts a real damper on both his attack and damage.
Squaba
03-19-06, 01:10 AM You're walking on treacherous ground trying to find a way to "take out" a PC character. I can understand the desire to not want your baddies getting dropped in the first couple rounds, but keep in mind he's your player and he's there to have fun not get screwed over. Some legit ways to get around him is to have him fight a more talented swordsmen, some one who uses Dodge, Off-hand Parry, things that can give him an AC bonus against one player, but not against others.

An opponent focused on the barbarian could disarm him, trip him, and generally keep him from dishing out too much damage, but still be left open to the other players. This could potentially teach the Barbarian not to rush into every encounter raging, and to rely on his allies a bit more, while giving the allies the opportunity to feel like they helped save their friend from a dire situation.

Other excellent methods for dealing with an over damaging character are, Grapple, Pin, Entangling, Hold Person, Sleep, Enchantments, Fear effects, and Nausea. A Swarm could be pretty devastating to a melee character. Also don’t forget that the Barbarian can only once per encounter, and even at the highest level only 6 times per day.

Judging by the attack bonus you gave I’m guessing he’s like level 10? That means he can only rage 3 times per day. Try throwing some weaker encounters at him, make him use the rages, then have the bigger smarter villains come in. This’ll again hopefully teach him not to use his rages so quickly, and will make him play a little more mildly.
runestar
03-19-06, 01:47 AM His will save will probably suck. Unless he is protected by magic such as prot: evil, have a mage dominate him and turn him against his party... :D
Rulebook
03-19-06, 07:21 AM oh man i LOVE it when my DM has to pull out stops to put a damper on my characters. it means ive been putting the Cheese in the right places (Be it from attack, magic, diplomacy, whatever)
teclis
03-19-06, 10:53 AM anything with a ton of HP could work. it doesn't have to even have that great an AC, so long as it's ratio of damage to HP is better than that of the barb. at least then, the other party members are NEEDED for MR smashy mc smash smash to win.
Edymnion
03-19-06, 12:57 PM Actually, yeah, disarming him would be a great way to go, especially if he's raging. Disarm him, then go on full defensive until his Rage ends, and then he'll be weak as a kitten (relatively speaking).
quix0te
03-19-06, 01:32 PM Okay. These are all good ideas (except killing him or paralyzing him, which means the player isnt having fun). I dont want to go out of my way to screw him, but he's dishing out huge amounts of damage, which means most encounters last two, maybe three rounds after contact.
Thanks for the ideas.
Oliver D'Argent
03-19-06, 01:47 PM I tend to agree with Squaba that makeing a serious effort to "take out" a PC is risky.

There are plenty of options that limit the effectiveness of this type of character - many of which have been mentioned already:

Ranged attacks - especially those from opponents that he cannot easily get to.
Opponents that grapple and/or disarm.
Spells or spell-like abilities that require Will saves.
Swarms or larger numbers of weaker oponents.
The Amazing Dancing Bear
03-19-06, 02:51 PM One of my favorite tricks is such: have an ogre or something else BIG use a whip. I believe this increases the reach, but that's not important right now. Give him Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Improved Disarm (he'll have to be a very smart ogre). Now, if the ogre gets initiative, have him ready an action to trip if the barbarian gets in range of the whip. If the ogre loses init, have him 5' step out of the barbarian's range and trip.

Now the trip: assuming a successful trip, the barbarian's on the ground, and the ogre gets a bonus attack. Use this for disarming the barbarian of his sword (I advocate gripping the whip in two hands). Now, drop the whip, pull out a massive axe or whatever, and wreak havoc on the barbarian's prostrate form.

I also enjoy putting the barbarian on the other side of a pit, having him fight anything that flies and has range, or just making him roleplay better than a squid.

Enjoy.
Blu Death
03-20-06, 01:27 AM I agree with the grapple part. Like every party, there is always that barbarian that can deal a crap load of damage. For example, just this sat. we played a game. The barbarian with his ogre great axe (he took the oversized weapon fighting feat) was a level 6 and dealt a crap load of damage against a boar (yes, I know that is low level, but they needed to get food for a monestary they were staying, they had eaten them out of house and home). He did 30 damage on a non crit and on a crit did 81 damage with sub-par rolls.

After the fight taking out a herd of boars in a cornered cave, I realized he was strong and I needed to think of something to do to take him out. Well, they fought a dragon later that day so I gave it improved snatch. Wow, +24 grapple check. What could he do?

So he is in this juvenile green dragons mouth (yes CR 8, but these guys had high stats for a high powered game and there are 7 of them) and he cant seem to get out. And he can't attack with his axe, so he is being chewed up in the mouth, and blasted by acid. Pretty soon, he is a blob of messy acidic green glue. Yay, the barbarian is dead! Its ok, im not too big of an ass, they have true ressurection salves at their level. Yeah, yeah, I know, those are worth probally worth like 30k or something, but trust me, this is a high powered campaign and we like dying.

Point is, melee fighters with big weapons can be hurt badly by grapplers, especially dragons. Dragons can get so massive and can, if they are big enough, swallow opponents. Most often, these barbarians forget to bring along a dagger to cut themselves out of the stomach because they have so much confidence in their big shiny sword of +10 doom! Which brings us to another point, sunder. When they lose their +3 vorpal flaming greatsword of democracy to a +5 mace of sundering crap, they tend to lose their cool. Remember, as a DM, you can make up feats and magic items. Don't limit the sunder feats to imporved and heightened sunder (and concussion and combat brute!) but rather add in some interesting items or house rules. Heh heh, and adamantine...

Summing that up, fighters with huge shiny things that do tons of damage, from longswords of slaying everything but squid to axe the size of a dwarf, are often befudled when they are grappled and can't use their huge weapon or lose it due to sundering.

So don't fret when the barbarian rages, full power attacks, and pulls some crazy crap out of ass and kills a huge boss with a well placed critical. Rather, laugh insanely as you start sketching up the new fighter boss TWFing with two adamantine shortswords and heightened sunder... muhahahahaha!
DarkRhystar
03-20-06, 01:52 AM The best way to deal with a super powerful character is sneaky.

Don't let it fight.

If your campaign is all about fighting, then such a character is going to shine. This is good, it's what it does so it should be really good. What happens if you need to do something non-combat oriented? A great axe can't solve that problem so what then? A character like this is usually a one-trick pony. Let the character be good in combat, but if you add in enough non-combat stuff the other characters will get their own chances to strut their stuff.

If all you want is for the characters to perform equally well and contribute equally in battle, there's no point to different classes. You may as well just make everyone a generic "adventurer" or something. Battle is the majority of what a Barbarian does. Let the player at least have that.
Krug_the_smasher
03-20-06, 12:30 PM hmmmm...these are some good ideas. I too have 3 charaters in the campaign that are super damage dealers. The ranger with monkeygrip and a sized up comp. longbow once did over 90 damage to one of the bosses. There is a barbarian, and a fighter, using the Greatblade Soldier (on Dnd Wiki (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Greatblade_Soldier_%28Dn D_Prestige_Class%29) ) and a Warperist using a one handed weapon that does 1d12 damage, but gives -1 penalty to AC. The warperist still has 27 AC, thanks to magical fullplate and magical Tower sheild. I find that ranged attacks work wonders, and so does smaller creatures, like swarms. hehe...immune to weapon damage. i love it.
Illion the Red
03-20-06, 12:45 PM Use the most underutilized tactic of all intelligent foes...run for the hills!

No, seriously. Hit him with an arrow or two and let him rage. Then, have the foes scatter to the four winds. Sure he can close the gap a bit with his extra speed, but they will have a headstart and his rage will run out eventually. At which point, he's a long way away from any support...in just the perfect place for an ambush.
Majick
03-20-06, 02:26 PM fire giant
improved sunder
adamantite weapon
done and done
no weapon for barbarian anymore
... or anyone else for that matter >:)
eyelessgame
03-23-06, 01:33 AM In addition to everyone else's suggestions (grapple, will saves, trip, sunder, various magic, ranged weapons) may I suggest:

- flying opponents
- incorporeal undead, particularly strength- or con-draining undead
- opponent groups with one high-AC creature and several 'friends' to engage with the rest of the party
- invisible opponents
- forcing him to drop his weapon (Command spells, for example, which don't take him out of the fight)
- Forget about high AC. Hit them with low-AC, high-HP monsters that take several rounds to drop even when everyone works together
- Or forget the high AC and the high hp, and swarm them. Doing 50 hp in a round doesn't help you if you have 12 opponents with 10 hp each and they stay out of cleave range of each other. A dozen third-level kobold sorcerers can deliver 24 magic missiles per round; that puts a crimp in anybody's loincloth.

And last but not least: HELP the other players with their characters. The barbarian you describe isn't out of line; it just requires a bit more finesse to get other PCs to work as well.

I figure that barbarian is about 7th level, right? (BAB +7, +4 for STR, +2 for rage, +1 for weapon focus, +1 for MW or magic weapon). How's the L7 party rogue? Dex 20, small size, weapon finesse, weapon focus, masterwork gives +11 to hit and 5d6 damage at least. (The rogue should be able to enter combat with Dex 20 at least, whether from a naturally high stat, gloves, or a cat's grace spell or wand. Add TWF and the rogue does 10d6 damage per round. Reduce Person gives another +2 to hit if you have weapon finesse...)
PossiblyInsane
03-23-06, 01:46 AM room full of enemies

like said above swarm while avoiding great cleave

OR

ooh... try swarming them with grappling enemies (lots of little people:evillaugh:), make him shine by punching them all out while allowing your other pc's to hit them too
Surreal
03-23-06, 01:51 PM A couple feats to consider: (both from Complete Warrior)
1) Elusive Target - negates all his bonus damage from power attack (which is probably where most of his damage is coming from)
2) Hamstring - let the rogue sneak up and cut his movement in half
quinnquillion quillacia
03-23-06, 02:20 PM try tripwires and snaplines. from charging>flying>to hanging upsidedown barbarion :smirk:
supernerd8916
03-23-06, 04:44 PM ooh ooh ooh ooh! pick me!

ok heres my idea: mirror fighting!

make a barb with the same stats as your PC, but better. do the same with the rest so they dont feel left out.

yeah, thats never been done before... :rofl:
supernerd8916
03-23-06, 04:46 PM using the Greatblade Soldier (on Dnd Wiki )

cant seem to find this...
StruckingFuggle
03-23-06, 04:56 PM One thing I'm going to be doing with my barbarian (and his SPIKED CHAIN.>..< ...) is a lot of small enemies, like goblin cannon fodder. Toss in a swarm of a bunch of small things, so that if they just go after the bigger badides they'll get slaughtered, and who better to crash into the swarm and deal with them while the others go after hte BBEG? The barbarian, yep! :)
kenoza
04-06-06, 02:11 AM i'm keen on the idea of having an ambush of archers in the trees, a barb has two choices climb the tree, meaning he is a sitting duck on the way up and possibly onthe way down agian ( either from failing a climb check or can't hang on do to damage and lack of concentration from trying to avoid the arrows in his face) or he can jsut sit there and swing his big o'sword at the braches. giving a rogue the chance to use bow and mage to use spell or druides to use any of there nature abilities. the barb then gets to sit there and pace like a caged animal. the later choice is even more nasty if the ambush is set up by rangers with the tree step ability, the fight may start on the ground causing the barb to rage and what not only to have the rangers tree step into a tree and out of another some 20+ ft over head, (again caged animal much like darth maul in starwars)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
quix0te 03-18-06, 04:28 PM	I'm GMing a group and one of my players is playing his stereotypical barbarian with a big 2h sword and 18 str. He does 25 dam/hit on average, with a +15/+10 atk. I have to put the ACs in the high 20's before he has a hard time hitting. And then my other melee characters have no chance. Ditto DR. I'd like to have encounters be challenging for the party, but short of always taking him out with a will save atk, most combats end very quickly when he does 50 damage in the first round or two. And anything thats hard for him, is out of the reach of my rogue, the rogue thief, and the shaman's summoned creatures.
Edymnion 03-18-06, 05:08 PM	Use concealment for the straight up miss chance. Blur, or even mundane darkness or smoke/fog. Or, he's a barbarian, he will have a low AC, have someone with Improved Init grapple him. He's a raging barbarian, he's supposed to hit really, really hard. However, he has to trade out the fact that he can't have a really great AC (especially when Raging), and as always, he has to close to melee before he can do anything. Use ranged attacks outside of 60' (so he can't charge), and then switch to grappling/stunning/snaring up close.
Radijs 03-18-06, 05:54 PM	Outside of 80'. Barbarians have fast movement. A few slabs of grease will also wreck his charge into a good slide.
Dessirris 03-18-06, 05:56 PM	Use ranged attacks outside of 60' (so he can't charge), and then switch to grappling/stunning/snaring up close. Actually, 80 ft's the key number, since barbs get that +10 to base speed, but it's the right idea. Edit: >_< Sarrnath'd Even better than keeping out of charge range, go with difficult terrain. A scout is excellent for this, especially. They can move through natural terrain such as heavy underbrush without penalty, while the barbarian has difficulty moving, much less charging through it. Give the scout shot on the run, and bounce in to skirmish range, fire, and the back out of range of a single move for him. With good skills, the scout can even do the same thing from the trees with Brachiation. Can't melee what's 20'+ above your head.
DrMorganes 03-18-06, 06:00 PM	Also keep in mind the limits of rage: duration, fatigue, and limited uses per day. Make sure you enforce all three.
Silverthumb128 03-18-06, 06:35 PM	Also keep in mind the limits of rage: duration, fatigue, and limited uses per day. Make sure you enforce all three. Also given the fact that Barbarians can only Rage once per encounter. If you use Calm Emotions, he won't be able to Rage again until the fight is over, and he'll be fatigued. That spell ruins so many Barbarians. :D
Rulebook 03-18-06, 07:11 PM	darkness and incorporeal creatures always work too. when he's only hitting maybe 15% as much as he used to he'll get frustrated really fast. oooh, and OOZES!
equilibrium17 03-18-06, 10:20 PM	Some other possibilities: - Tight spaces. Think kobold or gnome-sized tunnels. Big 2H weapons take serious penalities in spaces like this. This kind of encounter will favor any small-sized PCs. - Try opponents with really high AC, but low touch AC -- Simplest example would be anything in full plate. This favors spellcasters (many spell attacks rely on a touch or ranged touch). - Try organized opponents who use good tactics, and give them the feats to match. For example -- a group of elite Hobgoblin warriors, armed with pole arms and bows. The polearmsmean, with feats like Hold the Line form a blocking line, while a back rank of archers with Precise Shot pours on the arrows. If the polearms fight Total Defense, their AC will be very high, making it difficult for the Barb to break through, but the Archers will continue to pour on damage. Very nasty, and forces the Barb and PCs think, work together, and use countertactics -- an area spell to wipe out the pole arm line, ranged fire to punch a hole in the line so the barbarian can get through, etc.
Dark_beebles 03-18-06, 11:40 PM	If he power attacks use a guy with disarm, since his attack bonus will be low and easy to make him drop his weapon. Ray of enfeeblement will work as well its a cheap way to lower his str and with his really low ac from Rage or charging should be quite easy to hit. Blind him, with glitterdust. Or use Bands of iron or steel...forgot the name but its in the CA even if he makes the save he is entangled..lower ac, no charging, and weaker attack (or just use a mundane net)
mvincent 03-19-06, 12:31 AM	Kill him. Seriously; barbarians typically have low AC's, and smart opponent's will likely try to remove them first. And even (big) dumb creatures will often first grapple the most threatening opponent (i.e. the barbarian). Barbarians can have a short life-span unless they are played cautiously (unlikely). Really though, most classes are capable of massive damage at later levels anyway. Don't be afraid to crank up the competition to provide a challenge. The other players may soon come to appreciate the barbarian's ability to occupy the opposition's attention, and may even chip in to resurrect him constantly. Or just give the group more ranged or puzzle-type encounters.
Ogre4Hire 03-19-06, 01:02 AM	Hit him with a Ray of Enfeablement in the first round. That puts a real damper on both his attack and damage.
Squaba 03-19-06, 01:10 AM	You're walking on treacherous ground trying to find a way to "take out" a PC character. I can understand the desire to not want your baddies getting dropped in the first couple rounds, but keep in mind he's your player and he's there to have fun not get screwed over. Some legit ways to get around him is to have him fight a more talented swordsmen, some one who uses Dodge, Off-hand Parry, things that can give him an AC bonus against one player, but not against others. An opponent focused on the barbarian could disarm him, trip him, and generally keep him from dishing out too much damage, but still be left open to the other players. This could potentially teach the Barbarian not to rush into every encounter raging, and to rely on his allies a bit more, while giving the allies the opportunity to feel like they helped save their friend from a dire situation. Other excellent methods for dealing with an over damaging character are, Grapple, Pin, Entangling, Hold Person, Sleep, Enchantments, Fear effects, and Nausea. A Swarm could be pretty devastating to a melee character. Also don’t forget that the Barbarian can only once per encounter, and even at the highest level only 6 times per day. Judging by the attack bonus you gave I’m guessing he’s like level 10? That means he can only rage 3 times per day. Try throwing some weaker encounters at him, make him use the rages, then have the bigger smarter villains come in. This’ll again hopefully teach him not to use his rages so quickly, and will make him play a little more mildly.
runestar 03-19-06, 01:47 AM	His will save will probably suck. Unless he is protected by magic such as prot: evil, have a mage dominate him and turn him against his party... :D
Rulebook 03-19-06, 07:21 AM	oh man i LOVE it when my DM has to pull out stops to put a damper on my characters. it means ive been putting the Cheese in the right places (Be it from attack, magic, diplomacy, whatever)
teclis 03-19-06, 10:53 AM	anything with a ton of HP could work. it doesn't have to even have that great an AC, so long as it's ratio of damage to HP is better than that of the barb. at least then, the other party members are NEEDED for MR smashy mc smash smash to win.
Edymnion 03-19-06, 12:57 PM	Actually, yeah, disarming him would be a great way to go, especially if he's raging. Disarm him, then go on full defensive until his Rage ends, and then he'll be weak as a kitten (relatively speaking).
quix0te 03-19-06, 01:32 PM	Okay. These are all good ideas (except killing him or paralyzing him, which means the player isnt having fun). I dont want to go out of my way to screw him, but he's dishing out huge amounts of damage, which means most encounters last two, maybe three rounds after contact. Thanks for the ideas.
Oliver D'Argent 03-19-06, 01:47 PM	I tend to agree with Squaba that makeing a serious effort to "take out" a PC is risky. There are plenty of options that limit the effectiveness of this type of character - many of which have been mentioned already: Ranged attacks - especially those from opponents that he cannot easily get to. Opponents that grapple and/or disarm. Spells or spell-like abilities that require Will saves. Swarms or larger numbers of weaker oponents.
The Amazing Dancing Bear 03-19-06, 02:51 PM	One of my favorite tricks is such: have an ogre or something else BIG use a whip. I believe this increases the reach, but that's not important right now. Give him Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Improved Disarm (he'll have to be a very smart ogre). Now, if the ogre gets initiative, have him ready an action to trip if the barbarian gets in range of the whip. If the ogre loses init, have him 5' step out of the barbarian's range and trip. Now the trip: assuming a successful trip, the barbarian's on the ground, and the ogre gets a bonus attack. Use this for disarming the barbarian of his sword (I advocate gripping the whip in two hands). Now, drop the whip, pull out a massive axe or whatever, and wreak havoc on the barbarian's prostrate form. I also enjoy putting the barbarian on the other side of a pit, having him fight anything that flies and has range, or just making him roleplay better than a squid. Enjoy.
Blu Death 03-20-06, 01:27 AM	I agree with the grapple part. Like every party, there is always that barbarian that can deal a crap load of damage. For example, just this sat. we played a game. The barbarian with his ogre great axe (he took the oversized weapon fighting feat) was a level 6 and dealt a crap load of damage against a boar (yes, I know that is low level, but they needed to get food for a monestary they were staying, they had eaten them out of house and home). He did 30 damage on a non crit and on a crit did 81 damage with sub-par rolls. After the fight taking out a herd of boars in a cornered cave, I realized he was strong and I needed to think of something to do to take him out. Well, they fought a dragon later that day so I gave it improved snatch. Wow, +24 grapple check. What could he do? So he is in this juvenile green dragons mouth (yes CR 8, but these guys had high stats for a high powered game and there are 7 of them) and he cant seem to get out. And he can't attack with his axe, so he is being chewed up in the mouth, and blasted by acid. Pretty soon, he is a blob of messy acidic green glue. Yay, the barbarian is dead! Its ok, im not too big of an ass, they have true ressurection salves at their level. Yeah, yeah, I know, those are worth probally worth like 30k or something, but trust me, this is a high powered campaign and we like dying. Point is, melee fighters with big weapons can be hurt badly by grapplers, especially dragons. Dragons can get so massive and can, if they are big enough, swallow opponents. Most often, these barbarians forget to bring along a dagger to cut themselves out of the stomach because they have so much confidence in their big shiny sword of +10 doom! Which brings us to another point, sunder. When they lose their +3 vorpal flaming greatsword of democracy to a +5 mace of sundering crap, they tend to lose their cool. Remember, as a DM, you can make up feats and magic items. Don't limit the sunder feats to imporved and heightened sunder (and concussion and combat brute!) but rather add in some interesting items or house rules. Heh heh, and adamantine... Summing that up, fighters with huge shiny things that do tons of damage, from longswords of slaying everything but squid to axe the size of a dwarf, are often befudled when they are grappled and can't use their huge weapon or lose it due to sundering. So don't fret when the barbarian rages, full power attacks, and pulls some crazy crap out of ass and kills a huge boss with a well placed critical. Rather, laugh insanely as you start sketching up the new fighter boss TWFing with two adamantine shortswords and heightened sunder... muhahahahaha!
DarkRhystar 03-20-06, 01:52 AM	The best way to deal with a super powerful character is sneaky. Don't let it fight. If your campaign is all about fighting, then such a character is going to shine. This is good, it's what it does so it should be really good. What happens if you need to do something non-combat oriented? A great axe can't solve that problem so what then? A character like this is usually a one-trick pony. Let the character be good in combat, but if you add in enough non-combat stuff the other characters will get their own chances to strut their stuff. If all you want is for the characters to perform equally well and contribute equally in battle, there's no point to different classes. You may as well just make everyone a generic "adventurer" or something. Battle is the majority of what a Barbarian does. Let the player at least have that.
Krug_the_smasher 03-20-06, 12:30 PM	hmmmm...these are some good ideas. I too have 3 charaters in the campaign that are super damage dealers. The ranger with monkeygrip and a sized up comp. longbow once did over 90 damage to one of the bosses. There is a barbarian, and a fighter, using the Greatblade Soldier (on Dnd Wiki (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Greatblade_Soldier_%28Dn D_Prestige_Class%29) ) and a Warperist using a one handed weapon that does 1d12 damage, but gives -1 penalty to AC. The warperist still has 27 AC, thanks to magical fullplate and magical Tower sheild. I find that ranged attacks work wonders, and so does smaller creatures, like swarms. hehe...immune to weapon damage. i love it.
Illion the Red 03-20-06, 12:45 PM	Use the most underutilized tactic of all intelligent foes...run for the hills! No, seriously. Hit him with an arrow or two and let him rage. Then, have the foes scatter to the four winds. Sure he can close the gap a bit with his extra speed, but they will have a headstart and his rage will run out eventually. At which point, he's a long way away from any support...in just the perfect place for an ambush.
Majick 03-20-06, 02:26 PM	fire giant improved sunder adamantite weapon done and done no weapon for barbarian anymore ... or anyone else for that matter >:)
eyelessgame 03-23-06, 01:33 AM	In addition to everyone else's suggestions (grapple, will saves, trip, sunder, various magic, ranged weapons) may I suggest: - flying opponents - incorporeal undead, particularly strength- or con-draining undead - opponent groups with one high-AC creature and several 'friends' to engage with the rest of the party - invisible opponents - forcing him to drop his weapon (Command spells, for example, which don't take him out of the fight) - Forget about high AC. Hit them with low-AC, high-HP monsters that take several rounds to drop even when everyone works together - Or forget the high AC and the high hp, and swarm them. Doing 50 hp in a round doesn't help you if you have 12 opponents with 10 hp each and they stay out of cleave range of each other. A dozen third-level kobold sorcerers can deliver 24 magic missiles per round; that puts a crimp in anybody's loincloth. And last but not least: HELP the other players with their characters. The barbarian you describe isn't out of line; it just requires a bit more finesse to get other PCs to work as well. I figure that barbarian is about 7th level, right? (BAB +7, +4 for STR, +2 for rage, +1 for weapon focus, +1 for MW or magic weapon). How's the L7 party rogue? Dex 20, small size, weapon finesse, weapon focus, masterwork gives +11 to hit and 5d6 damage at least. (The rogue should be able to enter combat with Dex 20 at least, whether from a naturally high stat, gloves, or a cat's grace spell or wand. Add TWF and the rogue does 10d6 damage per round. Reduce Person gives another +2 to hit if you have weapon finesse...)
PossiblyInsane 03-23-06, 01:46 AM	room full of enemies like said above swarm while avoiding great cleave OR ooh... try swarming them with grappling enemies (lots of little people:evillaugh:), make him shine by punching them all out while allowing your other pc's to hit them too
Surreal 03-23-06, 01:51 PM	A couple feats to consider: (both from Complete Warrior) 1) Elusive Target - negates all his bonus damage from power attack (which is probably where most of his damage is coming from) 2) Hamstring - let the rogue sneak up and cut his movement in half
quinnquillion quillacia 03-23-06, 02:20 PM	try tripwires and snaplines. from charging>flying>to hanging upsidedown barbarion :smirk:
supernerd8916 03-23-06, 04:44 PM	ooh ooh ooh ooh! pick me! ok heres my idea: mirror fighting! make a barb with the same stats as your PC, but better. do the same with the rest so they dont feel left out. yeah, thats never been done before... :rofl:
supernerd8916 03-23-06, 04:46 PM	using the Greatblade Soldier (on Dnd Wiki ) cant seem to find this...
StruckingFuggle 03-23-06, 04:56 PM	One thing I'm going to be doing with my barbarian (and his SPIKED CHAIN.>..< ...) is a lot of small enemies, like goblin cannon fodder. Toss in a swarm of a bunch of small things, so that if they just go after the bigger badides they'll get slaughtered, and who better to crash into the swarm and deal with them while the others go after hte BBEG? The barbarian, yep! :)
kenoza 04-06-06, 02:11 AM	i'm keen on the idea of having an ambush of archers in the trees, a barb has two choices climb the tree, meaning he is a sitting duck on the way up and possibly onthe way down agian ( either from failing a climb check or can't hang on do to damage and lack of concentration from trying to avoid the arrows in his face) or he can jsut sit there and swing his big o'sword at the braches. giving a rogue the chance to use bow and mage to use spell or druides to use any of there nature abilities. the barb then gets to sit there and pace like a caged animal. the later choice is even more nasty if the ambush is set up by rangers with the tree step ability, the fight may start on the ground causing the barb to rage and what not only to have the rangers tree step into a tree and out of another some 20+ ft over head, (again caged animal much like darth maul in starwars)