Change in armor due to light materials [Archive] - Wizards Community

Change in armor due to light materials [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gitter Dunn
01-31-05, 11:24 AM So, a rogue (proficient in the use of only light armor) dons mithral breastplate. Does he suffer the armor check penalty to attacks?

My reasoning for the question is this - the rogue is not proficient with breastplate because it's medium armor. Does the rogue gain proficiency just because the mithral reduces the category from medium to light? Or does the mithral only count as light for movement and other abilities?
Lord Schpungus
01-31-05, 11:37 AM mithril breastplate is light armor. For all purposes.
Xeviat-DM
01-31-05, 11:39 AM This is a much contested issue on these boards. I believe that the armor still requires the higher proficiency to wear, but it's armor check penalty is lower. If not, there would be next to no reason for anyone to every take heavy armor proficiency, since mithril full-plate can grant you the highest AC in the core rules possible (aside from maxing out your Dex to 34 or higher).
Beamup
01-31-05, 11:40 AM The text of mithral states that it is considered to be one category lighter "for purposes of movement and other restrictions." Lack of proficiency is not a restriction, it's a penalty. The rules are quite clear.

So no. It's still considered Medium for proficiency.

Not to mention which, it's a poor idea anyway. The Mithral Chain Shirt is still superior - 1 AC for -1 ACP and 3100 gold is not a good deal.
StevenO
01-31-05, 02:52 PM As it has been pointed out the issue of proficiency requirements for mithral armors is a point of some contention. I favor leaving the proficiency unchanged (mithral breatplate need Med. Prof.) by reasoning that the Prof. represents the skill and knowledge to perform it that type of armor and that just because the armor is easier to work with the skill requirements don't change.

This issue isn't so great with mithral breastplate because an enchanted mithral chain shirt often costs less and a -1 ACP isn't that much. The bigger problem is letting someone use mithral fullplate as Med. Prof. without penalty. It may be lighter but you still need to put everything on in the right order and fashion. Ask yourself this when determining profiency, does changing the armor affect the time it takes don it? Unless you want to change how long it takes to put on the armor I wouldn't change what it takes to wear it.
Xeviat-DM
01-31-05, 04:09 PM Ask yourself this when determining profiency, does changing the armor affect the time it takes don it? Unless you want to change how long it takes to put on the armor I wouldn't change what it takes to wear it.

This is a good point. I also want to note that the larger issue is game balance. Do you want mithril to simply be a +2 (or +3) AC material? Breastplate is +5 AC and +3 Max Dex, while Mithril Fullplate is +8 AC and +3 Max Dex. The difference in cost is a drop in the bucket compared to the difference between a +2 Armor and a +5 Armor.
Ecthelion
02-01-05, 04:46 AM I don't think there is that much difference in strapping on a full-plate and a breastplate. If you can don one type of armoe, you can don them all. Proficiency is a matter of being able to move in said armor (just like proficiency wit weapons has to do with swinging them comfortably). Mithril makes it easier to wear the armor (hints: decreased ACP and increased max Dex). Therefore, mithril armors are one step lighter for ALL purposes, including proficiency. A rogue can use a mithil breastblate, and a barbarian can use a mithril full-plate, with full use of their abilities.
Beamup
02-01-05, 09:46 AM Therefore, mithril armors are one step lighter for ALL purposes, including proficiency.
And if the rules didn't explicitly restrict the purposes for which they are one step lighter, you might actually have a case.

Since they do, you don't.
Edymnion
02-01-05, 11:52 AM Rules are quite clear.
Mithril armor is counted as one step lighter for "movement and other restictions". Not being proficient in something is not a restriction. Not being able to use class abilities like barbarian fast movement is a restriction. Moving 20' instead of 30' is a restriction.

If the rules were intended to make it one step lighter for all purposes, it would have just said "and is now counted as being one step lighter for all purposes" instead of specifying which ones it counts for.

This is a very old discussion, going all the way back to 2000 when the books were first released. If you're of the opinion that 3.5 fixed all the unclear material, then realize they had the chance to change the wording on Mithril, but they didnt.

It is also in the FAQ that it does not affect needed proficiencies.

And on a side note, the reason full plate is harder to move in has little to do with it's weight (the reduction of which is already factored into the check penalty reduction), and the fact that you have solid metal plates limiting your movement. If you don't know how to get around that, you don't know how to get around that, and it doesn't matter what you make it out of.
KangTheCallipygian
02-01-05, 04:07 PM Beamup and Edymnion put it best I think, and I agree wholeheartedly with their posts.

A barbarian is restricted in what types of armor she can wear and still be able to use her fast movement; hello, mithral full-plate!

A warlock is restricted in what types of armor he can wear and still be able to ignore arcane spell failure; shiny mithral breastplate to the rescue!

A PC with no proficiency in any type of armor is not restricted from wearing armor at all. They're fully capable of strapping on anything from padded armor to full-plate, so long as they're willing to suck up the nonproficiency penalties; hello, armor check penalties on attack rolls and all skill checks involving movement for the barbarian and warlock above!

The FAQ Edymnion referred to just seals the deal. It's not one of those FAQ answers that's just "wrong" like the.... Nah; on second thought, I won't go there.

Here's an interesting related question: Would a monk wearing mithral light armor retain his AC bonus, fast movement, and flurry of blows abilities? ie. is wearing light mithral armor considered being unarmored for the purposes of movement and other restrictions? If so, monks could conceivably wear armor nonproficiently without penalty (mithral chain shirts have ACP 0) or loss of armor-restricted class abilities!

Kang
Evil Wizard
02-01-05, 04:43 PM No. There is no class below light armor, and even if there was, the monk entry says any armor. Wear anything restrictive at all, and the class abilities go away. The monk's cool tricks require complete freedom of movement, and even though many light armors don't affect your ability to perform skills, the maximum dexterity bonus indicates that they all limit your movement to some extent. I imagine the monk's AC bonus often requires some impressive feats of flexibility to work. Likewise with flurry of blows and probably fast movement.
StevenO
02-01-05, 09:54 PM Beamup and Edymnion put it best I think, and I agree wholeheartedly with their posts.

A barbarian is restricted in what types of armor she can wear and still be able to use her fast movement; hello, mithral full-plate!

A warlock is restricted in what types of armor he can wear and still be able to ignore arcane spell failure; shiny mithral breastplate to the rescue!

snip

Kang, I don't know what affect you were going for but in each of the above cases mithral armors do still allow those class functions. It is just that those classes don't have the correct armor proficiency without investing either a feat or class dip to avoid the penalties that come from wearing the stated armor. The warlock maybe wouldn't mind the ACP penalty but I don't think a full barbarian really wants -3 to hit.

A mithral shirt can be a problem because anyone can wear one without much (any) penalty.
DM Zoc
02-01-05, 11:11 PM Oddly, all of the specific mithral armors listed state clearly that they are one step lighter than they normally are (Elven Chain is "considered light armor") despite the fact that it costs the same as normal chainmail made from mithral (no price adjustment for special abilities). In the DMG, it specifically states that it is considered light armor because it is mithral.
shift244
02-02-05, 01:47 AM Oddly, all of the specific mithral armors listed state clearly that they are one step lighter than they normally are (Elven Chain is "considered light armor") despite the fact that it costs the same as normal chainmail made from mithral (no price adjustment for special abilities). In the DMG, it specifically states that it is considered light armor because it is mithral.There is no because as you referenced in the DMG. At least not the way i read it. Either you, or I am wrong. The way I read it is that the armor IS classed as light, not because it is made of mithril, but because is ot Elven made. The fact that it is made of mithril is simply the choice of material.

A normal suit of chainmail made of mithril is still a Medium armor, with some Light armor qualities when determining speed and other armor penalties. A suit of Elven Chainmail is a specific piece of armor that IS a Light armor.
KangTheCallipygian
02-02-05, 04:09 PM Kang, I don't know what affect you were going for but in each of the above cases mithral armors do still allow those class functions. It is just that those classes don't have the correct armor proficiency without investing either a feat or class dip to avoid the penalties that come from wearing the stated armor.That's pretty much exactly what I was going for, except I was trying to show why that is the case... Sorry if this wasn't clear. If you're asking for clarification of my post, the part you quoted was intended to illustrate the actual benefits of mithral armor - ie. a couple of examples of the kind of situation where mithral armor is considered one category lighter. I included it to provide a little contrast between the way mithral armor actually can benefit a character, and the part immediately after your 'snip', where I tried to show why the level of proficiency needed to use a given type of armor without penalty is not a restriction in the same sense as "no fast movement in heavy armor" etc., thus is not affected by a suit of armor being made of mithral. I hope you can now see what effect I was going for, but if not, rest assured, you and I seem to be in agreement so far as mithral armor proficiency is concerned. Again, sorry if that wasn't clear above.

Kang
Tony Vargas
02-02-05, 04:17 PM Another point to consider is that Mithral already makes armor you're not proficient in a lot easier to wear, since the non-proficiency penalty is based on the armor check penalty. If you're non-proficient in medium armor and wear a breastplate, you take a nasty -3 to your attacks. OTOH, if it's a mithral breastplate, you're at a more tollerable -1. Mithral Chain Shirts and bucklers, for instance, have /no/ armor check penalty, so even a completely non-proficient character, like a wizard or Monk or commoner, can wear them without suffering any penalty for being non-proficient (ASF is another matter, of course).
Zireael
02-03-05, 09:01 AM What are the stats for mithral full-plate? One size lighter and?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gitter Dunn 01-31-05, 11:24 AM	So, a rogue (proficient in the use of only light armor) dons mithral breastplate. Does he suffer the armor check penalty to attacks? My reasoning for the question is this - the rogue is not proficient with breastplate because it's medium armor. Does the rogue gain proficiency just because the mithral reduces the category from medium to light? Or does the mithral only count as light for movement and other abilities?
Lord Schpungus 01-31-05, 11:37 AM	mithril breastplate is light armor. For all purposes.
Xeviat-DM 01-31-05, 11:39 AM	This is a much contested issue on these boards. I believe that the armor still requires the higher proficiency to wear, but it's armor check penalty is lower. If not, there would be next to no reason for anyone to every take heavy armor proficiency, since mithril full-plate can grant you the highest AC in the core rules possible (aside from maxing out your Dex to 34 or higher).
Beamup 01-31-05, 11:40 AM	The text of mithral states that it is considered to be one category lighter "for purposes of movement and other restrictions." Lack of proficiency is not a restriction, it's a penalty. The rules are quite clear. So no. It's still considered Medium for proficiency. Not to mention which, it's a poor idea anyway. The Mithral Chain Shirt is still superior - 1 AC for -1 ACP and 3100 gold is not a good deal.
StevenO 01-31-05, 02:52 PM	As it has been pointed out the issue of proficiency requirements for mithral armors is a point of some contention. I favor leaving the proficiency unchanged (mithral breatplate need Med. Prof.) by reasoning that the Prof. represents the skill and knowledge to perform it that type of armor and that just because the armor is easier to work with the skill requirements don't change. This issue isn't so great with mithral breastplate because an enchanted mithral chain shirt often costs less and a -1 ACP isn't that much. The bigger problem is letting someone use mithral fullplate as Med. Prof. without penalty. It may be lighter but you still need to put everything on in the right order and fashion. Ask yourself this when determining profiency, does changing the armor affect the time it takes don it? Unless you want to change how long it takes to put on the armor I wouldn't change what it takes to wear it.
Xeviat-DM 01-31-05, 04:09 PM	Ask yourself this when determining profiency, does changing the armor affect the time it takes don it? Unless you want to change how long it takes to put on the armor I wouldn't change what it takes to wear it. This is a good point. I also want to note that the larger issue is game balance. Do you want mithril to simply be a +2 (or +3) AC material? Breastplate is +5 AC and +3 Max Dex, while Mithril Fullplate is +8 AC and +3 Max Dex. The difference in cost is a drop in the bucket compared to the difference between a +2 Armor and a +5 Armor.
Ecthelion 02-01-05, 04:46 AM	I don't think there is that much difference in strapping on a full-plate and a breastplate. If you can don one type of armoe, you can don them all. Proficiency is a matter of being able to move in said armor (just like proficiency wit weapons has to do with swinging them comfortably). Mithril makes it easier to wear the armor (hints: decreased ACP and increased max Dex). Therefore, mithril armors are one step lighter for ALL purposes, including proficiency. A rogue can use a mithil breastblate, and a barbarian can use a mithril full-plate, with full use of their abilities.
Beamup 02-01-05, 09:46 AM	Therefore, mithril armors are one step lighter for ALL purposes, including proficiency. And if the rules didn't explicitly restrict the purposes for which they are one step lighter, you might actually have a case. Since they do, you don't.
Edymnion 02-01-05, 11:52 AM	Rules are quite clear. Mithril armor is counted as one step lighter for "movement and other restictions". Not being proficient in something is not a restriction. Not being able to use class abilities like barbarian fast movement is a restriction. Moving 20' instead of 30' is a restriction. If the rules were intended to make it one step lighter for all purposes, it would have just said "and is now counted as being one step lighter for all purposes" instead of specifying which ones it counts for. This is a very old discussion, going all the way back to 2000 when the books were first released. If you're of the opinion that 3.5 fixed all the unclear material, then realize they had the chance to change the wording on Mithril, but they didnt. It is also in the FAQ that it does not affect needed proficiencies. And on a side note, the reason full plate is harder to move in has little to do with it's weight (the reduction of which is already factored into the check penalty reduction), and the fact that you have solid metal plates limiting your movement. If you don't know how to get around that, you don't know how to get around that, and it doesn't matter what you make it out of.
KangTheCallipygian 02-01-05, 04:07 PM	Beamup and Edymnion put it best I think, and I agree wholeheartedly with their posts. A barbarian is restricted in what types of armor she can wear and still be able to use her fast movement; hello, mithral full-plate! A warlock is restricted in what types of armor he can wear and still be able to ignore arcane spell failure; shiny mithral breastplate to the rescue! A PC with no proficiency in any type of armor is not restricted from wearing armor at all. They're fully capable of strapping on anything from padded armor to full-plate, so long as they're willing to suck up the nonproficiency penalties; hello, armor check penalties on attack rolls and all skill checks involving movement for the barbarian and warlock above! The FAQ Edymnion referred to just seals the deal. It's not one of those FAQ answers that's just "wrong" like the.... Nah; on second thought, I won't go there. Here's an interesting related question: Would a monk wearing mithral light armor retain his AC bonus, fast movement, and flurry of blows abilities? ie. is wearing light mithral armor considered being unarmored for the purposes of movement and other restrictions? If so, monks could conceivably wear armor nonproficiently without penalty (mithral chain shirts have ACP 0) or loss of armor-restricted class abilities! Kang
Evil Wizard 02-01-05, 04:43 PM	No. There is no class below light armor, and even if there was, the monk entry says any armor. Wear anything restrictive at all, and the class abilities go away. The monk's cool tricks require complete freedom of movement, and even though many light armors don't affect your ability to perform skills, the maximum dexterity bonus indicates that they all limit your movement to some extent. I imagine the monk's AC bonus often requires some impressive feats of flexibility to work. Likewise with flurry of blows and probably fast movement.
StevenO 02-01-05, 09:54 PM	Beamup and Edymnion put it best I think, and I agree wholeheartedly with their posts. A barbarian is restricted in what types of armor she can wear and still be able to use her fast movement; hello, mithral full-plate! A warlock is restricted in what types of armor he can wear and still be able to ignore arcane spell failure; shiny mithral breastplate to the rescue! snip Kang, I don't know what affect you were going for but in each of the above cases mithral armors do still allow those class functions. It is just that those classes don't have the correct armor proficiency without investing either a feat or class dip to avoid the penalties that come from wearing the stated armor. The warlock maybe wouldn't mind the ACP penalty but I don't think a full barbarian really wants -3 to hit. A mithral shirt can be a problem because anyone can wear one without much (any) penalty.
DM Zoc 02-01-05, 11:11 PM	Oddly, all of the specific mithral armors listed state clearly that they are one step lighter than they normally are (Elven Chain is "considered light armor") despite the fact that it costs the same as normal chainmail made from mithral (no price adjustment for special abilities). In the DMG, it specifically states that it is considered light armor because it is mithral.
shift244 02-02-05, 01:47 AM	Oddly, all of the specific mithral armors listed state clearly that they are one step lighter than they normally are (Elven Chain is "considered light armor") despite the fact that it costs the same as normal chainmail made from mithral (no price adjustment for special abilities). In the DMG, it specifically states that it is considered light armor because it is mithral.There is no because as you referenced in the DMG. At least not the way i read it. Either you, or I am wrong. The way I read it is that the armor IS classed as light, not because it is made of mithril, but because is ot Elven made. The fact that it is made of mithril is simply the choice of material. A normal suit of chainmail made of mithril is still a Medium armor, with some Light armor qualities when determining speed and other armor penalties. A suit of Elven Chainmail is a specific piece of armor that IS a Light armor.
KangTheCallipygian 02-02-05, 04:09 PM	Kang, I don't know what affect you were going for but in each of the above cases mithral armors do still allow those class functions. It is just that those classes don't have the correct armor proficiency without investing either a feat or class dip to avoid the penalties that come from wearing the stated armor.That's pretty much exactly what I was going for, except I was trying to show why that is the case... Sorry if this wasn't clear. If you're asking for clarification of my post, the part you quoted was intended to illustrate the actual benefits of mithral armor - ie. a couple of examples of the kind of situation where mithral armor is considered one category lighter. I included it to provide a little contrast between the way mithral armor actually can benefit a character, and the part immediately after your 'snip', where I tried to show why the level of proficiency needed to use a given type of armor without penalty is not a restriction in the same sense as "no fast movement in heavy armor" etc., thus is not affected by a suit of armor being made of mithral. I hope you can now see what effect I was going for, but if not, rest assured, you and I seem to be in agreement so far as mithral armor proficiency is concerned. Again, sorry if that wasn't clear above. Kang
Tony Vargas 02-02-05, 04:17 PM	Another point to consider is that Mithral already makes armor you're not proficient in a lot easier to wear, since the non-proficiency penalty is based on the armor check penalty. If you're non-proficient in medium armor and wear a breastplate, you take a nasty -3 to your attacks. OTOH, if it's a mithral breastplate, you're at a more tollerable -1. Mithral Chain Shirts and bucklers, for instance, have /no/ armor check penalty, so even a completely non-proficient character, like a wizard or Monk or commoner, can wear them without suffering any penalty for being non-proficient (ASF is another matter, of course).
Zireael 02-03-05, 09:01 AM	What are the stats for mithral full-plate? One size lighter and?