changing actions after an AoO [Archive] - Wizards Community

changing actions after an AoO [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gabriel Black
11-08-05, 07:16 PM A character declares he is going to leave a threatened space, move 30' then climb a short wall to engage different enemies. He provokes an AoO since he does not have a climb speed listed. He takes a lot of damage from the AoO reducing him to 1 hp. Can the character then decide to change his intended action or must he continue with the move/climb he previously declared? Obviously the character would not want to move into another combat with only 1hp.

If he can change his action, how much of his round would he have left? Does he still have a move and standard? Could he decide to stay and fight as a full round action?
Can he decide to double move off in a different direction?

I have to lean towards he has to finish the intended action. If you can change your mind after the result of an AoO that really screws with a lot of other feats and abilities.

On the other hand, what if the result of the AoO makes completeion of the action impossible. Let's say in the above scenario the AoO took him to 0hp. He could not complete his actions as he may only take one move action and the climb would be a second move. Would the guy only move to the wall then stop?

This scenario caused a huge argument that no one could win because no answer really seemed logical. There were flaws with every solution we tried. Any ideas?
Tony Vargas
11-08-05, 08:06 PM 3E does not require you to declare actions. Many systems do, D&D doesn't. When you provoke an AoO you have already begun an action. For instance, if you provoke an AoO for leaving a square, you have already started a movement action. Once the AoO is resolved, you can continue the action, or you can abandon it, but you've already used it. So, in your example, the character is already performing a Move action, he can stop moving, or he can move up to his regular move in whatever direction he chooses. He still has a standard action left after he's completed his movement.

Hope that helps.
Gabriel Black
11-08-05, 09:22 PM I believe you have to have some sort of "declaration" of your actions as the DM will need to know how to react. You can't just pick up your guy and start moving him around without saying what you are going to do. The DM would have to know if your moving out of the threatened space would provoke or not.

Your answers opens up some of the problems we were having. If you can freely change what you were going to do then what would happen if a monster would take two different actions depending on the direction you move? If a character is leaving the threatened space to move to the left side of the room the creature would hit with a spell storing weapon loaded with blindness hoping the guy would fall into a pit trap it knows is there. If the guy would move to the right (towards the exit) he would use another spell storing weapon with hold person to stop them from getting away. The creature is going to have to see which way you are going in order to decide which weapon to use.

What if you say you are moving away and you get an AoO. Can you then say well instead of actually moving, I'm going to use that move action to get a potion out of my pack. What if the guy really wanted to save his AoO to hit the spellcaster but would use it to hit you if you tried to leave. He is certainly going to be able to tell the difference if your getting in your pack or leaving. You ended up not leaving and he wasted his AoO.

My problem with this is everything is relative to what someone else is doing. When you change your action you change the circumstances that the creature uses to determine its actions.
ScipioX
11-08-05, 11:32 PM You declare your actions one at a time. So therefore you indicate that you are taking a move action. (as opposed to withdraw action) Then you move the first 5' of your movement. The MOB can then take it's AoO if it chooses. Once the first 5' of movement is complete, you then move the next 5' and so on.
Once your movement is complete, you declare what you're doing with your standard action.

So yes, the AoO'er gets some information on what you're doing. You can't change the action that actually provoked, but you can change the rest of your round.

For instanace, if instead of moving, you took a move action to do an action that provoked, you'd still have to finish that action (or stand there stupidly if the AoO made it impossible to complete the action.) Then you can decide what to do with the remainder of your round.
digoraccoon
11-09-05, 10:48 AM So, in your example, the character is already performing a Move action, he can stop moving, or he can move up to his regular move in whatever direction he chooses. He still has a standard action left after he's completed his movement.
I'm in agreement here. Actions can change just as fast as people change their minds. :) As long as they have actions available to use (In the example above he character still has a standard action available) they can change their mind and try something different.
tarkin
11-09-05, 10:53 AM I agree.

Note, I generally also let a character that is charging convert it to a move + standard action if they have not yet moved more than their speed.
Tony Vargas
11-09-05, 03:51 PM I believe you have to have some sort of "declaration" of your actions as the DM will need to know how to react. ...The DM would have to know if your moving out of the threatened space would provoke or not. You do have to decide what action you're taking, but you still don't need to 'declare' it. For instance, deciding to take a 5' step or Withdraw action is very different from deciding to take a move action. So, when you decide to take a move action and attempt to leave a square, you get AoO'd while you're still in that square. You can then decide where you move to, or even decide not to move afterall - but you've used your move action for the round.

Your answers opens up some of the problems we were having. If you can freely change what you were going to do then what would happen if a monster would take two different actions depending on the direction you move? You could change 'direction' after the monster took it's AoO.

If a character is leaving the threatened space to move to the left side of the room the creature would hit with a spell storing weapon loaded with blindness hoping the guy would fall into a pit trap it knows is there. If the guy would move to the right (towards the exit) he would use another spell storing weapon with hold person to stop them from getting away. The creature is going to have to see which way you are going in order to decide which weapon to use. Then, really, the monster is going to have to wait until you exit the second or subsequent square of your movement before taking the AoO. It doesn't get to see the future or read your mind.

What if you say you are moving away and you get an AoO. Can you then say well instead of actually moving, I'm going to use that move action to get a potion out of my pack. No, you're already using a move action to move.

My problem with this is everything is relative to what someone else is doing. When you change your action you change the circumstances that the creature uses to determine its actions. The D&D initiative system is actually pretty granular in that regard. If you take an AoO, you take it when the provoking action is initiated but before it's resolved. If you want to interrupt an action, you can Ready. If you want to see what someone else is doing, then react, you have to Delay, and you go after they've completed thier round.
Grond Axegrinder
11-12-05, 12:47 PM I believe you have to have some sort of "declaration" of your actions as the DM will need to know how to react. You can't just pick up your guy and start moving him around without saying what you are going to do. The DM would have to know if your moving out of the threatened space would provoke or not.

If a character is leaving the threatened space to move to the left side of the room the creature would hit with a spell storing weapon loaded with blindness hoping the guy would fall into a pit trap it knows is there. If the guy would move to the right (towards the exit) he would use another spell storing weapon with hold person to stop them from getting away. The creature is going to have to see which way you are going in order to decide which weapon to use.

Since the AaO is generated by leaving the square, an opponent knows which direction you are moving, but not what you intend to do when you get there.

An AoO has to be taken with the weapon in hand. Drawing another weapon is a MEA and not allowed as part of an AoO. If the creature had both weapons in hand, he could use either weapon.

What if you say you are moving away and you get an AoO. Can you then say well instead of actually moving, I'm going to use that move action to get a potion out of my pack. What if the guy really wanted to save his AoO to hit the spellcaster but would use it to hit you if you tried to leave. He is certainly going to be able to tell the difference if your getting in your pack or leaving. You ended up not leaving and he wasted his AoO.

No. Since the AoO is generated by moving out of the threatened square, you actually have to move the first 5 feet. Unless you declare that you are taking a 5' step before you move, you can't stop the AoO once you have started moving. There is nothing that says however that you can't stop after that first 5' and get a potion out of your pack, or even move back into your origonal square and attack the creature.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gabriel Black 11-08-05, 07:16 PM	A character declares he is going to leave a threatened space, move 30' then climb a short wall to engage different enemies. He provokes an AoO since he does not have a climb speed listed. He takes a lot of damage from the AoO reducing him to 1 hp. Can the character then decide to change his intended action or must he continue with the move/climb he previously declared? Obviously the character would not want to move into another combat with only 1hp. If he can change his action, how much of his round would he have left? Does he still have a move and standard? Could he decide to stay and fight as a full round action? Can he decide to double move off in a different direction? I have to lean towards he has to finish the intended action. If you can change your mind after the result of an AoO that really screws with a lot of other feats and abilities. On the other hand, what if the result of the AoO makes completeion of the action impossible. Let's say in the above scenario the AoO took him to 0hp. He could not complete his actions as he may only take one move action and the climb would be a second move. Would the guy only move to the wall then stop? This scenario caused a huge argument that no one could win because no answer really seemed logical. There were flaws with every solution we tried. Any ideas?
Tony Vargas 11-08-05, 08:06 PM	3E does not require you to declare actions. Many systems do, D&D doesn't. When you provoke an AoO you have already begun an action. For instance, if you provoke an AoO for leaving a square, you have already started a movement action. Once the AoO is resolved, you can continue the action, or you can abandon it, but you've already used it. So, in your example, the character is already performing a Move action, he can stop moving, or he can move up to his regular move in whatever direction he chooses. He still has a standard action left after he's completed his movement. Hope that helps.
Gabriel Black 11-08-05, 09:22 PM	I believe you have to have some sort of "declaration" of your actions as the DM will need to know how to react. You can't just pick up your guy and start moving him around without saying what you are going to do. The DM would have to know if your moving out of the threatened space would provoke or not. Your answers opens up some of the problems we were having. If you can freely change what you were going to do then what would happen if a monster would take two different actions depending on the direction you move? If a character is leaving the threatened space to move to the left side of the room the creature would hit with a spell storing weapon loaded with blindness hoping the guy would fall into a pit trap it knows is there. If the guy would move to the right (towards the exit) he would use another spell storing weapon with hold person to stop them from getting away. The creature is going to have to see which way you are going in order to decide which weapon to use. What if you say you are moving away and you get an AoO. Can you then say well instead of actually moving, I'm going to use that move action to get a potion out of my pack. What if the guy really wanted to save his AoO to hit the spellcaster but would use it to hit you if you tried to leave. He is certainly going to be able to tell the difference if your getting in your pack or leaving. You ended up not leaving and he wasted his AoO. My problem with this is everything is relative to what someone else is doing. When you change your action you change the circumstances that the creature uses to determine its actions.
ScipioX 11-08-05, 11:32 PM	You declare your actions one at a time. So therefore you indicate that you are taking a move action. (as opposed to withdraw action) Then you move the first 5' of your movement. The MOB can then take it's AoO if it chooses. Once the first 5' of movement is complete, you then move the next 5' and so on. Once your movement is complete, you declare what you're doing with your standard action. So yes, the AoO'er gets some information on what you're doing. You can't change the action that actually provoked, but you can change the rest of your round. For instanace, if instead of moving, you took a move action to do an action that provoked, you'd still have to finish that action (or stand there stupidly if the AoO made it impossible to complete the action.) Then you can decide what to do with the remainder of your round.
digoraccoon 11-09-05, 10:48 AM	So, in your example, the character is already performing a Move action, he can stop moving, or he can move up to his regular move in whatever direction he chooses. He still has a standard action left after he's completed his movement. I'm in agreement here. Actions can change just as fast as people change their minds. :) As long as they have actions available to use (In the example above he character still has a standard action available) they can change their mind and try something different.
tarkin 11-09-05, 10:53 AM	I agree. Note, I generally also let a character that is charging convert it to a move + standard action if they have not yet moved more than their speed.
Tony Vargas 11-09-05, 03:51 PM	I believe you have to have some sort of "declaration" of your actions as the DM will need to know how to react. ...The DM would have to know if your moving out of the threatened space would provoke or not. You do have to decide what action you're taking, but you still don't need to 'declare' it. For instance, deciding to take a 5' step or Withdraw action is very different from deciding to take a move action. So, when you decide to take a move action and attempt to leave a square, you get AoO'd while you're still in that square. You can then decide where you move to, or even decide not to move afterall - but you've used your move action for the round. Your answers opens up some of the problems we were having. If you can freely change what you were going to do then what would happen if a monster would take two different actions depending on the direction you move? You could change 'direction' after the monster took it's AoO. If a character is leaving the threatened space to move to the left side of the room the creature would hit with a spell storing weapon loaded with blindness hoping the guy would fall into a pit trap it knows is there. If the guy would move to the right (towards the exit) he would use another spell storing weapon with hold person to stop them from getting away. The creature is going to have to see which way you are going in order to decide which weapon to use. Then, really, the monster is going to have to wait until you exit the second or subsequent square of your movement before taking the AoO. It doesn't get to see the future or read your mind. What if you say you are moving away and you get an AoO. Can you then say well instead of actually moving, I'm going to use that move action to get a potion out of my pack. No, you're already using a move action to move. My problem with this is everything is relative to what someone else is doing. When you change your action you change the circumstances that the creature uses to determine its actions. The D&D initiative system is actually pretty granular in that regard. If you take an AoO, you take it when the provoking action is initiated but before it's resolved. If you want to interrupt an action, you can Ready. If you want to see what someone else is doing, then react, you have to Delay, and you go after they've completed thier round.
Grond Axegrinder 11-12-05, 12:47 PM	I believe you have to have some sort of "declaration" of your actions as the DM will need to know how to react. You can't just pick up your guy and start moving him around without saying what you are going to do. The DM would have to know if your moving out of the threatened space would provoke or not. If a character is leaving the threatened space to move to the left side of the room the creature would hit with a spell storing weapon loaded with blindness hoping the guy would fall into a pit trap it knows is there. If the guy would move to the right (towards the exit) he would use another spell storing weapon with hold person to stop them from getting away. The creature is going to have to see which way you are going in order to decide which weapon to use. Since the AaO is generated by leaving the square, an opponent knows which direction you are moving, but not what you intend to do when you get there. An AoO has to be taken with the weapon in hand. Drawing another weapon is a MEA and not allowed as part of an AoO. If the creature had both weapons in hand, he could use either weapon. What if you say you are moving away and you get an AoO. Can you then say well instead of actually moving, I'm going to use that move action to get a potion out of my pack. What if the guy really wanted to save his AoO to hit the spellcaster but would use it to hit you if you tried to leave. He is certainly going to be able to tell the difference if your getting in your pack or leaving. You ended up not leaving and he wasted his AoO. No. Since the AoO is generated by moving out of the threatened square, you actually have to move the first 5 feet. Unless you declare that you are taking a 5' step before you move, you can't stop the AoO once you have started moving. There is nothing that says however that you can't stop after that first 5' and get a potion out of your pack, or even move back into your origonal square and attack the creature.