Changing Grapple Rules [Archive] - Wizards Community

Changing Grapple Rules [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
NobodyRemembersThis
09-24-07, 04:52 PM Hey all. I think most of us can agree that the grapple rules for 3.x are terrible. So, I have been trying to find a better way of dealing with them. here is what I suggest: Make Grapple a simplified attack, similar to Disarm, Sunder, or Trip.

Grapple
As a melee attack, you can attempt a grapple. When you do so, you prevent your opponent from moving, and prevent them from threatening any target other than you. Follow the steps outlined below.

Step 1
Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. (If you have the Improved Grapple feat, you don’t incur an attack of opportunity for making a grapple attempt.) If the defender’s attack of opportunity deals any damage, your grapple attempt fails.

Any target more than 2 size categories larger than you is not a viable target for a grapple attack.

You and the target now occupy the same square. Effects targetting the square are 50% likely to affect you, 50% likely to affect your opponent.

Step 2
Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed melee attack rolls. You gain a +2 bonus to your roll for every size category you are larger than the creature you are rolling against.
Example: Torva (Medium sized Human) is grappled by Ichabod (small size halfling), and missed the AoO. Torva gets a +2 bonus to his melee attack roll to avoid the grapple. Had he been large sized, it would be a +4.

Step 3
Consequences. If the attacker is successful, the target's threat range is reduced to 0 and it is unable to move from the square it occupies. Weapons and material components can not be drawn while in a grapple. Weapons larger than light can not be used when grappled.

If the attack is not successful, the attacker is forced back into his starting square and loses his remaining attacks. You remain grappled until the start of your next turn.

Spells: You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell.

Ending a Grapple
Your opponent may attempt to end the grapple on his turn. Ending a grapple is an attack action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Make an opposed melee attack roll. If your opponent wins, he is freed from the grapple and may move into an adjacent free square. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

If you do not make an additional grapple attack on your next turn, the grapple ends and you move to an adjacent square as a free action. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Well, what do you think? Is this a simpler way to handle it? I think I will be making Pin a feat as well. How does it look?
Orenmir
09-24-07, 05:32 PM I think the existing grapple rules work just fine, with one exception: maintaining a pin.

Your rules are very similar to the existing rules. You've changed the wording a bit, reuduced the size modifier, and limited the actions during the grapple... down to none, if I read it correctly. How do you damage someone in a grapple with your rules? What are your options while grappling?

What is it about the current rules that you don't like?
NobodyRemembersThis
09-24-07, 07:01 PM What I dislike is that grappling is effectively an entire subset of combat. I dislike it because it is complicated. The above Grapple has 3 primary effects:

1. Movement reduced to 0.
2. Reduce threatened area to 0 squares.
3. Spellcasting restricted severely.

Much Like Disarm, Sunder, and Trip, you still get your other attacks. So, if you grapple and succeed, you can still attack the target with the remainde of your attacks.

Pinning I think I will make a seperate attack - Say a standard action that prevents the target from taking any standard actions except an opposed strength or an escape artist check to break free.
Knightblde
09-25-07, 01:40 AM Not to be a jerk, but seriously, spend more time understanding the current rules, and less time making up your own and you will make out MUCH better.

If you change the size modifer, you change a core part of the game. Many creatures CRs are based on this and their ability to grapple. Are you now going to lower thier CRs?
NobodyRemembersThis
09-25-07, 11:40 AM Riiiight. For the record, I understand the rules of the game very well. Creatures bigger than the target they are grappling still get a bonus (+2/size difference), but it is not nearly as crazy as standard grappling rules. That way, it is still a relatively viable option at ever aspect of the game - it also means that, at high levels, getting grappled does not equal unstoppable death.

So yes, I understand the rules. I understand which changes I can make at what the ramifications are going to be, and I am still planning on making the changes. The benefits outweigh the ramifications. Example:

Purple worm's current grapple check is a +40. In my system, it's base is +24. Versus a medium creature, it is +30. Yes, that's a 10 point difference. But now a creature actually has a chance to escape said grapple.
Orenmir
09-25-07, 01:18 PM Should a medium-sized creature be able to escape a grapple with a creature that has that kind of grapple check? With a ton of strength and high BAB, maybe. With not much strength or low BAB, no. If the weaker character allows himself to be put in a situation where a purple worm has a chance to grapple him, he should die. That is realistic. The current grapple rules work fine.
jaelis
09-25-07, 01:27 PM I changed the grapple rules and I've been very happy with how it plays, if you're interested (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=859862). I think the one thing I had to change from that post is that a monster with Improved Grab still has to make a grapple check to start a grapple. (Otherwise Imp Grab was too good.)

I took kind of the opposite approach as you. Instead of reducing your options in a grapple, I said that you can do nearly anything in a grapple that you can do in regular combat, you just need to make grapple checks to move.
tyrecian
09-25-07, 02:47 PM Effects targetting the square are 50% likely to affect you, 50% likely to affect your opponent.

This is too good. We once played this way, for an entire campaign, and it created a situation whereby grappling effectively took someone out of the game. There was a monk PC who grappled as a specialty, and when he was on someone the 50% chance for melee (currently the rules restrict 50% to range, but we played everything, which is what i am reading here) enabled grapplers to be insanely overpowerred, essentially able to enter combat and grab an enemy and deal damage without the enemy's friends wanting to interfere without a 50% miss chance.

Every once in a while (i was DM) i would have another join the grapple, but that wasnt nearly as good as being able to shank the monk who is on the buddy, especially since he was totally primed to grapple, and many enemies are not.

I have to admit, I dont really dig grappling all that much, but as a DM i have found (and as a player) that it makes many enemies that seem retarded viable. Take for instance Monster Summoning 3, many wizards would say no to taking that spell on their lists in favor of better spells (dispel, fireball, etc.), but when grappling is brought into the equation one quickly realizes the benefit of the Fiendish Monstrous Centipede, Huge; which has a BA of +4 (lame) but a grapple of +15, yay! add in the poison, and we begin to see why that monster is good to summon.

Make Grapple a simplified attack, similar to Disarm, Sunder, or Trip.
I believe that it already is. It is simply an effect that lasts as long as you continue to grapple. I really dont believe that the rules are that complicated, they are simply a subset from the main that no particular class gets an inherent bonus to. I look at this as a way of bringing up the difficulty level of the game.

The pyro-hydra can breathe fire on the wizard all day long, but if he takes one of his mouths and grapples the wizard, pinning him in the mouth, then he has done a greater disservice to the PC party. It depends on the DM, and also on how clever the players are. Grappling can be a killer, if the PCs are caught totally unawares.

Also i would suggest that this is a HUGE boon for the druid in animal form, and would never want to take power away from the various animal forms that the druid can become that might not have the pounce action, or multiple attacks, but gain a grapple that is nice (such as bear line).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NobodyRemembersThis 09-24-07, 04:52 PM	Hey all. I think most of us can agree that the grapple rules for 3.x are terrible. So, I have been trying to find a better way of dealing with them. here is what I suggest: Make Grapple a simplified attack, similar to Disarm, Sunder, or Trip. Grapple As a melee attack, you can attempt a grapple. When you do so, you prevent your opponent from moving, and prevent them from threatening any target other than you. Follow the steps outlined below. Step 1 Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. (If you have the Improved Grapple feat, you don’t incur an attack of opportunity for making a grapple attempt.) If the defender’s attack of opportunity deals any damage, your grapple attempt fails. Any target more than 2 size categories larger than you is not a viable target for a grapple attack. You and the target now occupy the same square. Effects targetting the square are 50% likely to affect you, 50% likely to affect your opponent. Step 2 Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed melee attack rolls. You gain a +2 bonus to your roll for every size category you are larger than the creature you are rolling against. Example: Torva (Medium sized Human) is grappled by Ichabod (small size halfling), and missed the AoO. Torva gets a +2 bonus to his melee attack roll to avoid the grapple. Had he been large sized, it would be a +4. Step 3 Consequences. If the attacker is successful, the target's threat range is reduced to 0 and it is unable to move from the square it occupies. Weapons and material components can not be drawn while in a grapple. Weapons larger than light can not be used when grappled. If the attack is not successful, the attacker is forced back into his starting square and loses his remaining attacks. You remain grappled until the start of your next turn. Spells: You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell. You don’t have to make a successful grapple check to cast the spell. Ending a Grapple Your opponent may attempt to end the grapple on his turn. Ending a grapple is an attack action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Make an opposed melee attack roll. If your opponent wins, he is freed from the grapple and may move into an adjacent free square. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If you do not make an additional grapple attack on your next turn, the grapple ends and you move to an adjacent square as a free action. This movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Well, what do you think? Is this a simpler way to handle it? I think I will be making Pin a feat as well. How does it look?
Orenmir 09-24-07, 05:32 PM	I think the existing grapple rules work just fine, with one exception: maintaining a pin. Your rules are very similar to the existing rules. You've changed the wording a bit, reuduced the size modifier, and limited the actions during the grapple... down to none, if I read it correctly. How do you damage someone in a grapple with your rules? What are your options while grappling? What is it about the current rules that you don't like?
NobodyRemembersThis 09-24-07, 07:01 PM	What I dislike is that grappling is effectively an entire subset of combat. I dislike it because it is complicated. The above Grapple has 3 primary effects: 1. Movement reduced to 0. 2. Reduce threatened area to 0 squares. 3. Spellcasting restricted severely. Much Like Disarm, Sunder, and Trip, you still get your other attacks. So, if you grapple and succeed, you can still attack the target with the remainde of your attacks. Pinning I think I will make a seperate attack - Say a standard action that prevents the target from taking any standard actions except an opposed strength or an escape artist check to break free.
Knightblde 09-25-07, 01:40 AM	Not to be a jerk, but seriously, spend more time understanding the current rules, and less time making up your own and you will make out MUCH better. If you change the size modifer, you change a core part of the game. Many creatures CRs are based on this and their ability to grapple. Are you now going to lower thier CRs?
NobodyRemembersThis 09-25-07, 11:40 AM	Riiiight. For the record, I understand the rules of the game very well. Creatures bigger than the target they are grappling still get a bonus (+2/size difference), but it is not nearly as crazy as standard grappling rules. That way, it is still a relatively viable option at ever aspect of the game - it also means that, at high levels, getting grappled does not equal unstoppable death. So yes, I understand the rules. I understand which changes I can make at what the ramifications are going to be, and I am still planning on making the changes. The benefits outweigh the ramifications. Example: Purple worm's current grapple check is a +40. In my system, it's base is +24. Versus a medium creature, it is +30. Yes, that's a 10 point difference. But now a creature actually has a chance to escape said grapple.
Orenmir 09-25-07, 01:18 PM	Should a medium-sized creature be able to escape a grapple with a creature that has that kind of grapple check? With a ton of strength and high BAB, maybe. With not much strength or low BAB, no. If the weaker character allows himself to be put in a situation where a purple worm has a chance to grapple him, he should die. That is realistic. The current grapple rules work fine.
jaelis 09-25-07, 01:27 PM	I changed the grapple rules and I've been very happy with how it plays, if you're interested (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=859862). I think the one thing I had to change from that post is that a monster with Improved Grab still has to make a grapple check to start a grapple. (Otherwise Imp Grab was too good.) I took kind of the opposite approach as you. Instead of reducing your options in a grapple, I said that you can do nearly anything in a grapple that you can do in regular combat, you just need to make grapple checks to move.
tyrecian 09-25-07, 02:47 PM	Effects targetting the square are 50% likely to affect you, 50% likely to affect your opponent. This is too good. We once played this way, for an entire campaign, and it created a situation whereby grappling effectively took someone out of the game. There was a monk PC who grappled as a specialty, and when he was on someone the 50% chance for melee (currently the rules restrict 50% to range, but we played everything, which is what i am reading here) enabled grapplers to be insanely overpowerred, essentially able to enter combat and grab an enemy and deal damage without the enemy's friends wanting to interfere without a 50% miss chance. Every once in a while (i was DM) i would have another join the grapple, but that wasnt nearly as good as being able to shank the monk who is on the buddy, especially since he was totally primed to grapple, and many enemies are not. I have to admit, I dont really dig grappling all that much, but as a DM i have found (and as a player) that it makes many enemies that seem retarded viable. Take for instance Monster Summoning 3, many wizards would say no to taking that spell on their lists in favor of better spells (dispel, fireball, etc.), but when grappling is brought into the equation one quickly realizes the benefit of the Fiendish Monstrous Centipede, Huge; which has a BA of +4 (lame) but a grapple of +15, yay! add in the poison, and we begin to see why that monster is good to summon. Make Grapple a simplified attack, similar to Disarm, Sunder, or Trip. I believe that it already is. It is simply an effect that lasts as long as you continue to grapple. I really dont believe that the rules are that complicated, they are simply a subset from the main that no particular class gets an inherent bonus to. I look at this as a way of bringing up the difficulty level of the game. The pyro-hydra can breathe fire on the wizard all day long, but if he takes one of his mouths and grapples the wizard, pinning him in the mouth, then he has done a greater disservice to the PC party. It depends on the DM, and also on how clever the players are. Grappling can be a killer, if the PCs are caught totally unawares. Also i would suggest that this is a HUGE boon for the druid in animal form, and would never want to take power away from the various animal forms that the druid can become that might not have the pounce action, or multiple attacks, but gain a grapple that is nice (such as bear line).