changing keen [Archive] - Wizards Community

changing keen [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Patrick Draken-Korin
11-07-05, 06:31 PM keen, the +1 weapon enhancment that doubles a weapon threat range. it's a good ability, especially for rapiers and kukris, but a relativly crummy one to add to a 20/x2 standard critical weapon.
i'd like to know the opinion on changing keen (and improved critical) to instead increase a weapon threat range by +2;
20/x? becomes 18/x? (rather than 19/x?)
19/x? becomes 17/x? (rather than 17/x?)
18/x? becomes 16/x? (rather than 15/x?)
and now 17/x? base weapon are somewhat reasonable because they only become 15/x? (rather than 13/x? as they would with the core system's keen and improved critical)

on the other side all of the 20/x3 weapons would now be 18/x3, and 20x4 weapons would be 18/4.

hmm. math time! (note that i ignore weapon damage, just figuring the critical value)

formula example
20/x2; miss on a 1 (-5%), normal hit on a 2-19 (90%), crit on a 20 (5% base), x2 damage on a crit (5% * 2 = 10% total) = 100% (mean damage is 100% of the weapon's possible damage)

20/x2 (0.10, mean 100%)
20/x3 (0.15, mean 105%)
20/x4 (0.20, mean 110%)
19/x2 (0.20, mean 105%)
19/x3 (0.30, mean 115%) would be eliminated (i'm not adding 19/x3 base weapons!)
19/x4 (0.40, mean 125%) scary but previously possible, would be eliminated (i'm not adding 19/x4 base weapons!)
18/x2 (0.30, mean 110%)
18/x3 (0.45, mean 125%) scary & perviously impossible
18/x4 (0.60, mean 140%) freaking scary & previously impossible
17/x2 (0.40, mean 115%)
16/x2 (0.50, mean 120%) slightly scary & previously impossible
15/x2 (0.60, mean 125%) scary but previously possible

the whole double the threat range thing is kinda strange isn't it? it affects the best threat ranges alot more than it affects the worst... this is rather illogical don't you think? (though magic and logic don't always get along & i don't really see the need for them to always do so anyways)
note that this is just a thing that i've been considering.
opinions?
RisingZan
11-07-05, 06:42 PM The primary reason why Keen only doubles the threat range, and also why it doesn't stack with the Improved Critical ability is the existance of x3 and x4 weapons that you point out. These weapons are already some of the most high damage weapons, even with out crits as they are two handed, and with a crit, and most likely power attack they are devastating. (A Scythe strike for 100+ damage anyone?). The weapons that have a crit only on 20 with a x2 have a few things in common:
1)most of them are light, and probably are not getting used by front line fighters
2)They are generally the cheapest weapons in the game
3) A lot of the ones not covered by the above have other abilities, like the Spiked Chain and the Trident.

You also made an error in that weapons that are 19-20 that have their crit range doubled by keen already become 17-20, not 18-20 as you indicate.

Also note that if you change the ability, you would also have to change the Keen Edge spell and the Scabbard of Keen Edges as they are all the same effect (and all based upon the spell).

It actually makes sense that doubling the crit ranges effects the best critting weapons even more because that's the one thing those weapons are good at. The Rapier, Scimtar and Falchion are all really good at Crits, but they don't do as much damage as comparable weapons, and the piercing damage of the Rapier is often a limitation, especially if fighting undead such as skeletons, zombies and liches. Very few creatures with DR have DR/Piercing
DragonDeadite
11-07-05, 06:47 PM Hm... really not that bad of an idea IMHO, but you've got to remember that some weapons are just sharper, and magicaly making them even sharper is a reflectiong of how sharp they are to begin with. A scimitar is a curved blade that is just a very good weapon for slicing things apart with a very sharp edge. That's reflected in the higher crit range, and adding Keen to it just hones that crit range even more. On the other hand, a weapon that only has a 20/X2 crit is more than likely a weapon that is used to hack down onto an enemy and try to break him apart more than slice through his body in a single swipe, so you can't really improve the sharpness of the blade to make it more effective beyond what it already is. If you think of it in real world terms it does make more sense.

I'm personaly glad they came out with the Impact ability for bludgeoning weapons, not that it ever stopped me before from applying the keen ability to bludg. weapons anyways. :cool:
Rulebook
11-07-05, 06:50 PM well, another reason they dont stack were all the ways to get a 2-20 threat range. (with 5-20 being fairly common actually)
LaoKhanWei
11-07-05, 07:12 PM I like it.
Patrick Draken-Korin
11-07-05, 09:17 PM 1) thanks for noting the error, RisingZan, it's been edited

2) of course all of the other "keen" effects would be changed too. changing some an not others would be idiotic. i didn't mention the others because the all refrence the either keen or improved critical.

3) It actually makes sense that doubling the crit ranges effects the best critting weapons even more because that's the one thing those weapons are good at.
??? of course a doubling effect is going to affect a larger value more than a smaller value... but i'm not talking about multiplication, but changing it to straight value increase.
[/deliberate ignorance] the point being i'm changing the way keen works from an expaning system (where bigger things expand faster) to a regular system (where all things expand at the same rate). most of D&D is a regular system (exempting the pricing structure of magical items).
expanding systems are of the most common munchkin abuses- flurry + TWF + speed weapons, that power point cycle that produces more power points, stacking core keen with core improved critical, etc.
( :embarrass , couldn't list a third expanding system munchkin abuse off-hand without resoting to the subject at hand).

4) an extremely sharp weapon is made magically shaper... so of course it's now several levels above where it was. a slightly sharp weapon is made magically sharper (using the exact same effect) and is now only a single level above where it was.
i'd love to get an effect that does this for base damage; upgrades a dagger 1 damage step (1d4 to 1d6, but upgrades a great axe three damage steps (1d12 to 4d8). see my point?
fortunately, threat range is treated better in 3.5, by preventing stacking, though the expanding system remains.

5)impact rocks. impact sap? impact quarterstaff?, impact great club?

6) i never said the effects should stack.
Nom
11-07-05, 09:45 PM Double threat range makes perfect sense.

Firstly, note that the mean damage of 19-20/x2 is exactly equivalent to 20/x3, as long as our to-hit number is 19 or less. Both work out to be a +2 bonus (19-20/+1, 20/+2).

Second, note that weapons with a larger crit value already pay for it. Compare mace 1d8 20/x2 simple (crit +1) with warhammer 1d8 20/x3 martial (crit +2). Or rapier 1d6 18-20/x2 martial (crit +3) with longsword 1d8 19-20/x2 martial (crit +2). And note that a warhammer or battleaxe 1d8 20/x3 martial (crit +2) is equivalent to a longsword 1d8 19-20/x2 martial (crit +2).

Each +1 of crit value is worth +5% mean base damage.

Now, if increasing crit value just gave another +1, this would mean that a rapier would go to 17-20/x2 and a longsword to 18-20/x2, increasing both by +5% mean base damage. However, the rapier already sacrificed 1d8 -> 1d6 for the increased crit range, so the longsword actually gains more absolute damage from this trade. If we simply double crit value, then each weapon gains the same amount as it originally gained (+5% -> +2*5%, +10% -> +2*10%, +15% -> +2*15%). Assuming the initial values were balanced, the new values should also be balanced.

The other problem with a flat +1 (or +X) is applying it to 20/xN weapons. Such weapons are already problematic, as a "lucky crit" can drastically alter play. In general, slow swings are good, since these allow the players to respond. Massive, infrequent swings are bad, since they are hard to predict and compensate for - a PC can go from healthy to dead on a single lucky crit. Further increasing the multiplier increases the skew, so that is undesirable, but there is no other easy way to turn a 20/x3 (+2) weapon into a +3 weapon. 19/x2 20/x3 is clunky, but might be an interesting rule.

Increasing threat range has another, more subtle, problem. The bigger your threat range the greater the chance you won't be able to use it. Your rapier may threaten on a 15-20 but if you need 17 to-hit then much of your advantage is wasted. In contrast, a 19-20/x4 weapon is much less likely to have rolls thrown away.

I am attracted to the split-range, however. I wonder if a rule where a keen battleaxe became 18-19/x2 20/x3 would be playable?
Kendrick
11-07-05, 09:46 PM 1. Keen as it is already affects weapons with equivilant multipliers and threat ranges identically. What you purpose would give a significant power boost to high threat weapons like the battle axe and scythe, while kicking sword wielders in the groin.

2. 20/*2 weapons are not relevant for discussing the effects of keen. You should look at the maximum possible effect of what you propose - not the minimum.

3. For example, have fun with the 18-20 scythe with a *4 modifier, which now averages 140% of its base damage. It's like a tripping greatsword based on its base damage alone, nevermind the fact that damage from enhancements and strength will be increased by over 20% compared to a greatsword. (i. e. a character with a scythe and 20 strength will now do more damage than a character with a greatsword and 22 strength)

Conclusion? This is a Bad Idea(tm).
Vaelan
11-08-05, 12:48 AM 1. Keen as it is already affects weapons with equivilant multipliers and threat ranges identically. What you purpose would give a significant power boost to high threat weapons like the battle axe and scythe, while kicking sword wielders in the groin.

2. 20/*2 weapons are not relevant for discussing the effects of keen. You should look at the maximum possible effect of what you propose - not the minimum.

3. For example, have fun with the 18-20 scythe with a *4 modifier, which now averages 140% of its base damage. It's like a tripping greatsword based on its base damage alone, nevermind the fact that damage from enhancements and strength will be increased by over 20% compared to a greatsword. (i. e. a character with a scythe and 20 strength will now do more damage than a character with a greatsword and 22 strength)

Conclusion? This is a Bad Idea(tm).
What he said.
Rulebook
11-08-05, 10:29 AM be very careful when you allow things like keen and improved crit to stack...

i'll gladly take a kukri or clawed gauntlet wielding Paladin and apply Bless Weapon to it if im fighting evil things... a 5(or even 2)-20 AUTO CRIT is just too plain nasty for me to think about.
Patrick Draken-Korin
11-09-05, 12:20 AM first, rulebook; what are you talking about? so far you're the only person here talking about making these effects stack. we get the point, it's a bad idea. the rest of us are taling about changing the threat modification system.
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okay for the rest of youse; i can see your points, though note that
a) sword wielders aren't "kicked in the groin", because i was proposing a +2 increase. true rapiers, scimitars, kukris, and falchions are all groaning on the floor, but all 19/x2 swords are completely unaffected by this proposed change.
and b) as has been stated greater crit ranges are often less useful than they appear: how much would it really change things for them? with either a +10% or a +15% increase to threat range (when most of the time only a +5% to +10% increase is actually noticed), then why bother with the greater threat increase?

but i've got to admit (partially due to my own thoughts, and partially due to your opinions), that with D&D as it is the doubling effect works better. that is when the system only generally allows increases to threat range but leaves the multiplier to be constant.
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on the other hand, expand the scenario;
-change keen to +10% increment (as suggested above), as a +1 enhancment*
-and add an enhancment that increases the critical multiplier by +1 (x2 becomes x3, x3 becomes x4, and x4 becomes x5), as a +1 enhancment*
*note that if a wepaon had one enhancment and you wanted to add the other, this would be equivilant to a +2 enhancment (for +3 total if both abilities are together).

the math would be as follows (i'm just listing every possiblity up to 15/x? and ?/x5);
20/x2 (0.10, mean 100%) base weapon
20/x3 (0.15, mean 105%) +1, 20/x2 weapon, base weapon
20/x4 (0.20, mean 110%) +1, 20/x3 weapon; base weapon
20/x5 (0.25, mean 115%) +1, 20/x4 weapon
19/x2 (0.20, mean 105%) base weapon
19/x3 (0.30, mean 115%) +1, 19/x2 weapon; barely possible (as a base weapon- i'm not allowing that, personally)
19/x4 (0.40, mean 125%) barely possible (+1, 19/x3 weapon)
19/x5 (0.50, mean 135%) impossible
18/x2 (0.30, mean 110%) +1, 20/x2 weapon; base weapon
18/x3 (0.45, mean 125%) +3, 20/x2 weapon; +1, 20/x3 weapon; +1, 18/x2 weapon
18/x4 (0.60, mean 140%) +3, 20/x3 weapon; +1, 20/x4 weapon
18/x5 (0.75, mean 155%) +3, 20/x4 weapon
17/x2 (0.40, mean 115%) +1, 19/x2 weapon; base weapon
17/x3 (0.60, mean 135%) +3, 19/x2 weapon; barely possible (+1, 19/x3 weapon); +1, 17/x2 weapon
17/x4 (0.80, mean 155%) barely possible (+3, 19/x3 weapon)
17/x5 (1.00, mean 175%) impossible
16/x2 (0.50, mean 120%) +1, 18/x2 weapon
16/x3 (0.75, mean 145%) +3, 18/x2 weapon
16/x4 (1.00, mean 170%) impossible
16/x5 (1.25, mean 195%) impossible
15/x2 (0.60, mean 125%) +1, 17/x2 weapon
15/x3 (0.90, mean 155%) +3, 17/x2 weapon
15/x4 (1.20, mean 185%) impossible
15/x5 (1.50, mean 205%) impossible
highest pssible mean; 155% (+3 equivalent), 140% (+1 equivalent)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
vs. the core keen ability plus the ability to increase the critical multiplier
the math would be as follows (again, just listing every possiblity up to 15/x? and ?/x5);
20/x2 (0.10, mean 100%) base weapon
20/x3 (0.15, mean 105%) +1, 20/x2 weapon, base weapon
20/x4 (0.20, mean 110%) +1, 20/x3 weapon; base weapon
20/x5 (0.25, mean 115%) +1, 20/x4 weapon
19/x2 (0.20, mean 105%) +1, 20/x2 weapon; base weapon
19/x3 (0.30, mean 115%) +3, 20/x2 weapon; +1, 20/x3 weapon; +1, 19/x2 weapon; barely possible (as a base weapon- i'm not allowing that, personally)
19/x4 (0.40, mean 125%) +3, 20/x3 weapon; +1, 20/x4 weapon; barely possible (+1, 19/x3 weapon)
19/x5 (0.50, mean 135%) +3, 20/x4 weapon
18/x2 (0.30, mean 110%) base weapon
18/x3 (0.45, mean 125%) +1, 18/x2 weapon
18/x4 (0.60, mean 140%) impossible
18/x5 (0.75, mean 155%) impossible
17/x2 (0.40, mean 115%) +1, 19/x2 weapon; base weapon
17/x3 (0.60, mean 135%) +3, 19/x2 weapon; barely possible (+1, 19/x3 weapon); +1, 17/x2 weapon
17/x4 (0.80, mean 155%) barely possible (+3, 19/x3 weapon)
17/x5 (1.00, mean 175%) impossible
16/x2 (0.50, mean 120%) impossible
16/x3 (0.75, mean 145%) impossible
16/x4 (1.00, mean 170%) impossible
16/x5 (1.25, mean 195%) impossible
15/x2 (0.60, mean 125%) +1, 18/x2 weapon
15/x3 (0.90, mean 155%) +3, 18/x2 weapon
15/x4 (1.20, mean 185%) impossible
15/x5 (1.50, mean 205%) impossible
highest pssible mean; 155% (+3 equivalent, 135% (+1 equivalent)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
well, that's interesting. as for mean damage, my suggestion (for the expanded sytem at least) is almost equal. sure it's higher powered, but balanced powergaming is fun (even if it's an oxymoron). the question is whethere it's balanced like this.
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final note; weapon damage and critical multiplier can be compared seperately. of course weapons that have a better threat range or critical multiplier will have reduced damage. that's what they exchange for the improved critical rating. mentioning the lost damage level is the same as point out the wizards lack of proficiencies. calculating damage vs threat is for determining martial vs exotic.
nonsi
11-09-05, 02:09 AM Hm... really not that bad of an idea IMHO, but you've got to remember that some weapons are just sharper, and magicaly making them even sharper is a reflectiong of how sharp they are to begin with. A scimitar is a curved blade that is just a very good weapon for slicing things apart with a very sharp edge. That's reflected in the higher crit range, and adding Keen to it just hones that crit range even more. On the other hand, a weapon that only has a 20/X2 crit is more than likely a weapon that is used to hack down onto an enemy and try to break him apart more than slice through his body in a single swipe, so you can't really improve the sharpness of the blade to make it more effective beyond what it already is. If you think of it in real world terms it does make more sense.

I'm personaly glad they came out with the Impact ability for bludgeoning weapons, not that it ever stopped me before from applying the keen ability to bludg. weapons anyways. :cool:

just ask yourself "how much sharper can I make a surgical blade?". the blades are already as shark as craftsmanship can make them. I view "keen" just as an affect that "pushes the bio-matter asside" to make room for the blade. I go for the fixed increment.
Kendrick
11-09-05, 02:44 AM 1. What standard weapon has a X3 critical and a 19-20 threat range?
2. Is it really a good idea to have a single "best" possible weapon? Nope. That's not "balanced powergaming" - that's eliminating options.
3. The entire point of having all critical effects double range is that they have the same effect on equivilant criticals - 20/X3 and 19-20/X2, and 18-20/X2 and 20/X4. When you change this so that high critical multiplier weapons are better, you have just successfully kicked the sword-wielders in the groin, by making everybody except them better.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Patrick Draken-Korin 11-07-05, 06:31 PM	keen, the +1 weapon enhancment that doubles a weapon threat range. it's a good ability, especially for rapiers and kukris, but a relativly crummy one to add to a 20/x2 standard critical weapon. i'd like to know the opinion on changing keen (and improved critical) to instead increase a weapon threat range by +2; 20/x? becomes 18/x? (rather than 19/x?) 19/x? becomes 17/x? (rather than 17/x?) 18/x? becomes 16/x? (rather than 15/x?) and now 17/x? base weapon are somewhat reasonable because they only become 15/x? (rather than 13/x? as they would with the core system's keen and improved critical) on the other side all of the 20/x3 weapons would now be 18/x3, and 20x4 weapons would be 18/4. hmm. math time! (note that i ignore weapon damage, just figuring the critical value) formula example 20/x2; miss on a 1 (-5%), normal hit on a 2-19 (90%), crit on a 20 (5% base), x2 damage on a crit (5% * 2 = 10% total) = 100% (mean damage is 100% of the weapon's possible damage) 20/x2 (0.10, mean 100%) 20/x3 (0.15, mean 105%) 20/x4 (0.20, mean 110%) 19/x2 (0.20, mean 105%) 19/x3 (0.30, mean 115%) would be eliminated (i'm not adding 19/x3 base weapons!) 19/x4 (0.40, mean 125%) scary but previously possible, would be eliminated (i'm not adding 19/x4 base weapons!) 18/x2 (0.30, mean 110%) 18/x3 (0.45, mean 125%) scary & perviously impossible 18/x4 (0.60, mean 140%) freaking scary & previously impossible 17/x2 (0.40, mean 115%) 16/x2 (0.50, mean 120%) slightly scary & previously impossible 15/x2 (0.60, mean 125%) scary but previously possible the whole double the threat range thing is kinda strange isn't it? it affects the best threat ranges alot more than it affects the worst... this is rather illogical don't you think? (though magic and logic don't always get along & i don't really see the need for them to always do so anyways) note that this is just a thing that i've been considering. opinions?
RisingZan 11-07-05, 06:42 PM	The primary reason why Keen only doubles the threat range, and also why it doesn't stack with the Improved Critical ability is the existance of x3 and x4 weapons that you point out. These weapons are already some of the most high damage weapons, even with out crits as they are two handed, and with a crit, and most likely power attack they are devastating. (A Scythe strike for 100+ damage anyone?). The weapons that have a crit only on 20 with a x2 have a few things in common: 1)most of them are light, and probably are not getting used by front line fighters 2)They are generally the cheapest weapons in the game 3) A lot of the ones not covered by the above have other abilities, like the Spiked Chain and the Trident. You also made an error in that weapons that are 19-20 that have their crit range doubled by keen already become 17-20, not 18-20 as you indicate. Also note that if you change the ability, you would also have to change the Keen Edge spell and the Scabbard of Keen Edges as they are all the same effect (and all based upon the spell). It actually makes sense that doubling the crit ranges effects the best critting weapons even more because that's the one thing those weapons are good at. The Rapier, Scimtar and Falchion are all really good at Crits, but they don't do as much damage as comparable weapons, and the piercing damage of the Rapier is often a limitation, especially if fighting undead such as skeletons, zombies and liches. Very few creatures with DR have DR/Piercing
DragonDeadite 11-07-05, 06:47 PM	Hm... really not that bad of an idea IMHO, but you've got to remember that some weapons are just sharper, and magicaly making them even sharper is a reflectiong of how sharp they are to begin with. A scimitar is a curved blade that is just a very good weapon for slicing things apart with a very sharp edge. That's reflected in the higher crit range, and adding Keen to it just hones that crit range even more. On the other hand, a weapon that only has a 20/X2 crit is more than likely a weapon that is used to hack down onto an enemy and try to break him apart more than slice through his body in a single swipe, so you can't really improve the sharpness of the blade to make it more effective beyond what it already is. If you think of it in real world terms it does make more sense. I'm personaly glad they came out with the Impact ability for bludgeoning weapons, not that it ever stopped me before from applying the keen ability to bludg. weapons anyways. :cool:
Rulebook 11-07-05, 06:50 PM	well, another reason they dont stack were all the ways to get a 2-20 threat range. (with 5-20 being fairly common actually)
LaoKhanWei 11-07-05, 07:12 PM	I like it.
Patrick Draken-Korin 11-07-05, 09:17 PM	1) thanks for noting the error, RisingZan, it's been edited 2) of course all of the other "keen" effects would be changed too. changing some an not others would be idiotic. i didn't mention the others because the all refrence the either keen or improved critical. 3) It actually makes sense that doubling the crit ranges effects the best critting weapons even more because that's the one thing those weapons are good at. ??? of course a doubling effect is going to affect a larger value more than a smaller value... but i'm not talking about multiplication, but changing it to straight value increase. [/deliberate ignorance] the point being i'm changing the way keen works from an expaning system (where bigger things expand faster) to a regular system (where all things expand at the same rate). most of D&D is a regular system (exempting the pricing structure of magical items). expanding systems are of the most common munchkin abuses- flurry + TWF + speed weapons, that power point cycle that produces more power points, stacking core keen with core improved critical, etc. ( :embarrass , couldn't list a third expanding system munchkin abuse off-hand without resoting to the subject at hand). 4) an extremely sharp weapon is made magically shaper... so of course it's now several levels above where it was. a slightly sharp weapon is made magically sharper (using the exact same effect) and is now only a single level above where it was. i'd love to get an effect that does this for base damage; upgrades a dagger 1 damage step (1d4 to 1d6, but upgrades a great axe three damage steps (1d12 to 4d8). see my point? fortunately, threat range is treated better in 3.5, by preventing stacking, though the expanding system remains. 5)impact rocks. impact sap? impact quarterstaff?, impact great club? 6) i never said the effects should stack.
Nom 11-07-05, 09:45 PM	Double threat range makes perfect sense. Firstly, note that the mean damage of 19-20/x2 is exactly equivalent to 20/x3, as long as our to-hit number is 19 or less. Both work out to be a +2 bonus (19-20/+1, 20/+2). Second, note that weapons with a larger crit value already pay for it. Compare mace 1d8 20/x2 simple (crit +1) with warhammer 1d8 20/x3 martial (crit +2). Or rapier 1d6 18-20/x2 martial (crit +3) with longsword 1d8 19-20/x2 martial (crit +2). And note that a warhammer or battleaxe 1d8 20/x3 martial (crit +2) is equivalent to a longsword 1d8 19-20/x2 martial (crit +2). Each +1 of crit value is worth +5% mean base damage. Now, if increasing crit value just gave another +1, this would mean that a rapier would go to 17-20/x2 and a longsword to 18-20/x2, increasing both by +5% mean base damage. However, the rapier already sacrificed 1d8 -> 1d6 for the increased crit range, so the longsword actually gains more absolute damage from this trade. If we simply double crit value, then each weapon gains the same amount as it originally gained (+5% -> +25%, +10% -> +210%, +15% -> +2*15%). Assuming the initial values were balanced, the new values should also be balanced. The other problem with a flat +1 (or +X) is applying it to 20/xN weapons. Such weapons are already problematic, as a "lucky crit" can drastically alter play. In general, slow swings are good, since these allow the players to respond. Massive, infrequent swings are bad, since they are hard to predict and compensate for - a PC can go from healthy to dead on a single lucky crit. Further increasing the multiplier increases the skew, so that is undesirable, but there is no other easy way to turn a 20/x3 (+2) weapon into a +3 weapon. 19/x2 20/x3 is clunky, but might be an interesting rule. Increasing threat range has another, more subtle, problem. The bigger your threat range the greater the chance you won't be able to use it. Your rapier may threaten on a 15-20 but if you need 17 to-hit then much of your advantage is wasted. In contrast, a 19-20/x4 weapon is much less likely to have rolls thrown away. I am attracted to the split-range, however. I wonder if a rule where a keen battleaxe became 18-19/x2 20/x3 would be playable?
Kendrick 11-07-05, 09:46 PM	1. Keen as it is already affects weapons with equivilant multipliers and threat ranges identically. What you purpose would give a significant power boost to high threat weapons like the battle axe and scythe, while kicking sword wielders in the groin. 2. 20/2 weapons are not relevant for discussing the effects of keen. You should look at the maximum possible effect of what you propose - not the minimum. 3. For example, have fun with the 18-20 scythe with a 4 modifier, which now averages 140% of its base damage. It's like a tripping greatsword based on its base damage alone, nevermind the fact that damage from enhancements and strength will be increased by over 20% compared to a greatsword. (i. e. a character with a scythe and 20 strength will now do more damage than a character with a greatsword and 22 strength) Conclusion? This is a Bad Idea(tm).
Vaelan 11-08-05, 12:48 AM	1. Keen as it is already affects weapons with equivilant multipliers and threat ranges identically. What you purpose would give a significant power boost to high threat weapons like the battle axe and scythe, while kicking sword wielders in the groin. 2. 20/2 weapons are not relevant for discussing the effects of keen. You should look at the maximum possible effect of what you propose - not the minimum. 3. For example, have fun with the 18-20 scythe with a 4 modifier, which now averages 140% of its base damage. It's like a tripping greatsword based on its base damage alone, nevermind the fact that damage from enhancements and strength will be increased by over 20% compared to a greatsword. (i. e. a character with a scythe and 20 strength will now do more damage than a character with a greatsword and 22 strength) Conclusion? This is a Bad Idea(tm). What he said.
Rulebook 11-08-05, 10:29 AM	be very careful when you allow things like keen and improved crit to stack... i'll gladly take a kukri or clawed gauntlet wielding Paladin and apply Bless Weapon to it if im fighting evil things... a 5(or even 2)-20 AUTO CRIT is just too plain nasty for me to think about.
Patrick Draken-Korin 11-09-05, 12:20 AM	first, rulebook; what are you talking about? so far you're the only person here talking about making these effects stack. we get the point, it's a bad idea. the rest of us are taling about changing the threat modification system. -------------- okay for the rest of youse; i can see your points, though note that a) sword wielders aren't "kicked in the groin", because i was proposing a +2 increase. true rapiers, scimitars, kukris, and falchions are all groaning on the floor, but all 19/x2 swords are completely unaffected by this proposed change. and b) as has been stated greater crit ranges are often less useful than they appear: how much would it really change things for them? with either a +10% or a +15% increase to threat range (when most of the time only a +5% to +10% increase is actually noticed), then why bother with the greater threat increase? but i've got to admit (partially due to my own thoughts, and partially due to your opinions), that with D&D as it is the doubling effect works better. that is when the system only generally allows increases to threat range but leaves the multiplier to be constant. --------------- on the other hand, expand the scenario; -change keen to +10% increment (as suggested above), as a +1 enhancment* -and add an enhancment that increases the critical multiplier by +1 (x2 becomes x3, x3 becomes x4, and x4 becomes x5), as a +1 enhancment* *note that if a wepaon had one enhancment and you wanted to add the other, this would be equivilant to a +2 enhancment (for +3 total if both abilities are together). the math would be as follows (i'm just listing every possiblity up to 15/x? and ?/x5); 20/x2 (0.10, mean 100%) base weapon 20/x3 (0.15, mean 105%) +1, 20/x2 weapon, base weapon 20/x4 (0.20, mean 110%) +1, 20/x3 weapon; base weapon 20/x5 (0.25, mean 115%) +1, 20/x4 weapon 19/x2 (0.20, mean 105%) base weapon 19/x3 (0.30, mean 115%) +1, 19/x2 weapon; barely possible (as a base weapon- i'm not allowing that, personally) 19/x4 (0.40, mean 125%) barely possible (+1, 19/x3 weapon) 19/x5 (0.50, mean 135%) impossible 18/x2 (0.30, mean 110%) +1, 20/x2 weapon; base weapon 18/x3 (0.45, mean 125%) +3, 20/x2 weapon; +1, 20/x3 weapon; +1, 18/x2 weapon 18/x4 (0.60, mean 140%) +3, 20/x3 weapon; +1, 20/x4 weapon 18/x5 (0.75, mean 155%) +3, 20/x4 weapon 17/x2 (0.40, mean 115%) +1, 19/x2 weapon; base weapon 17/x3 (0.60, mean 135%) +3, 19/x2 weapon; barely possible (+1, 19/x3 weapon); +1, 17/x2 weapon 17/x4 (0.80, mean 155%) barely possible (+3, 19/x3 weapon) 17/x5 (1.00, mean 175%) impossible 16/x2 (0.50, mean 120%) +1, 18/x2 weapon 16/x3 (0.75, mean 145%) +3, 18/x2 weapon 16/x4 (1.00, mean 170%) impossible 16/x5 (1.25, mean 195%) impossible 15/x2 (0.60, mean 125%) +1, 17/x2 weapon 15/x3 (0.90, mean 155%) +3, 17/x2 weapon 15/x4 (1.20, mean 185%) impossible 15/x5 (1.50, mean 205%) impossible highest pssible mean; 155% (+3 equivalent), 140% (+1 equivalent) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vs. the core keen ability plus the ability to increase the critical multiplier the math would be as follows (again, just listing every possiblity up to 15/x? and ?/x5); 20/x2 (0.10, mean 100%) base weapon 20/x3 (0.15, mean 105%) +1, 20/x2 weapon, base weapon 20/x4 (0.20, mean 110%) +1, 20/x3 weapon; base weapon 20/x5 (0.25, mean 115%) +1, 20/x4 weapon 19/x2 (0.20, mean 105%) +1, 20/x2 weapon; base weapon 19/x3 (0.30, mean 115%) +3, 20/x2 weapon; +1, 20/x3 weapon; +1, 19/x2 weapon; barely possible (as a base weapon- i'm not allowing that, personally) 19/x4 (0.40, mean 125%) +3, 20/x3 weapon; +1, 20/x4 weapon; barely possible (+1, 19/x3 weapon) 19/x5 (0.50, mean 135%) +3, 20/x4 weapon 18/x2 (0.30, mean 110%) base weapon 18/x3 (0.45, mean 125%) +1, 18/x2 weapon 18/x4 (0.60, mean 140%) impossible 18/x5 (0.75, mean 155%) impossible 17/x2 (0.40, mean 115%) +1, 19/x2 weapon; base weapon 17/x3 (0.60, mean 135%) +3, 19/x2 weapon; barely possible (+1, 19/x3 weapon); +1, 17/x2 weapon 17/x4 (0.80, mean 155%) barely possible (+3, 19/x3 weapon) 17/x5 (1.00, mean 175%) impossible 16/x2 (0.50, mean 120%) impossible 16/x3 (0.75, mean 145%) impossible 16/x4 (1.00, mean 170%) impossible 16/x5 (1.25, mean 195%) impossible 15/x2 (0.60, mean 125%) +1, 18/x2 weapon 15/x3 (0.90, mean 155%) +3, 18/x2 weapon 15/x4 (1.20, mean 185%) impossible 15/x5 (1.50, mean 205%) impossible highest pssible mean; 155% (+3 equivalent, 135% (+1 equivalent) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well, that's interesting. as for mean damage, my suggestion (for the expanded sytem at least) is almost equal. sure it's higher powered, but balanced powergaming is fun (even if it's an oxymoron). the question is whethere it's balanced like this. -------------------- final note; weapon damage and critical multiplier can be compared seperately. of course weapons that have a better threat range or critical multiplier will have reduced damage. that's what they exchange for the improved critical rating. mentioning the lost damage level is the same as point out the wizards lack of proficiencies. calculating damage vs threat is for determining martial vs exotic.
nonsi 11-09-05, 02:09 AM	Hm... really not that bad of an idea IMHO, but you've got to remember that some weapons are just sharper, and magicaly making them even sharper is a reflectiong of how sharp they are to begin with. A scimitar is a curved blade that is just a very good weapon for slicing things apart with a very sharp edge. That's reflected in the higher crit range, and adding Keen to it just hones that crit range even more. On the other hand, a weapon that only has a 20/X2 crit is more than likely a weapon that is used to hack down onto an enemy and try to break him apart more than slice through his body in a single swipe, so you can't really improve the sharpness of the blade to make it more effective beyond what it already is. If you think of it in real world terms it does make more sense. I'm personaly glad they came out with the Impact ability for bludgeoning weapons, not that it ever stopped me before from applying the keen ability to bludg. weapons anyways. :cool: just ask yourself "how much sharper can I make a surgical blade?". the blades are already as shark as craftsmanship can make them. I view "keen" just as an affect that "pushes the bio-matter asside" to make room for the blade. I go for the fixed increment.
Kendrick 11-09-05, 02:44 AM	1. What standard weapon has a X3 critical and a 19-20 threat range? 2. Is it really a good idea to have a single "best" possible weapon? Nope. That's not "balanced powergaming" - that's eliminating options. 3. The entire point of having all critical effects double range is that they have the same effect on equivilant criticals - 20/X3 and 19-20/X2, and 18-20/X2 and 20/X4. When you change this so that high critical multiplier weapons are better, you have just successfully kicked the sword-wielders in the groin, by making everybody except them better.