Character and Npc CR [Archive] - Wizards Community

Character and Npc CR [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Empyrium
12-19-06, 09:37 AM How exactly do yuo calculate a single individual's CR? For example a Lvl 8 Ranger? Just gimme the general tutorial please?:weep:
jaelis
12-19-06, 09:49 AM A character with the elite stat array and levels in a PC class has a CR equal to his level.

A character with the nonelite stat array and levels in an NPC class has a CR equal to his level minus 1.

For something in between (say an NPC class with the elite array, or mixed PC and NPC classes), the DM will need to decide. I'd factor the NPC's gear into that decision pretty heavily too.
xaqariah
12-19-06, 09:53 AM The CR of a character is its Level plus any Level Adjustment.
NPC Classes are one CR less.

A Level 8 Ranger would be CR 8.
(8 Ranger Levels)

A Level 8 Gnoll Ranger would be CR 9.
(8 Ranger Levels plus LA + 1 from being a Gnoll)

A Level 8 Warrior would be a CR 7.
(8 Warrior Levels plus -1 for having at least one NPC Class Level)

A Rogue 4, Fighter 4 would be CR 8.
(8 PC Class Levels)

A Rogue 4, Warrior 4 would be CR 7.
(4 PC Class Levels plus 4 NPC Levels minus 1 for having at least one NPC Class Level)

A Gnoll Rogue 4, Warrior 4 would be CR 8.
(4 PC Class Levels plus 4 NPC Levels minus 1 for having at least one NPC Class Level plus LA +1 from being a Gnoll)

Hope this helps!
Empyrium
12-19-06, 10:22 AM Okay... But aren't pc's elite arrays as well? How is a Lvl 8 ranger on his own suppose to be a challange to a party of Lvl 8 characters? Or am I missing something here?
jaelis
12-19-06, 10:26 AM A CR 8 encounter should be an even match for a single level 8 character. A party of four level 8 characters should be able to handle four CR 8 encounters every day.
Lecen_of_Mitran
12-19-06, 10:33 AM Let´s say we have a human Fighter 9. His CR it is 9. Here, we´re talking about NPCs (so, their wealth is different from PCs).

What should be the CR from a PC then? A human Fighter 9?
Empyrium
12-19-06, 10:46 AM Cr 9 no? I don't know why this seems so confusing :confused: I think I get it...
Maraxus
12-19-06, 11:11 AM It all depends on what you mean with CR.
Okay... But aren't pc's elite arrays as well? How is a Lvl 8 ranger on his own suppose to be a challange to a party of Lvl 8 characters? Or am I missing something here?No, you are not missing anything, NPCs are very easy encounters, compared with monsters.

Lecen_of_Mitran: Well, it does not say that clearly, but probably the answer is "both". A level 9 fighter is CR 9. With NPC wealth or PC wealth. It shows again, that CR does not say everything about the difficulty of a challenge.

Let's forget the official CR for a while.
I think the best formula for low-powered groups (3 good characters, or a sub-optimal 4 character group) is:

Commoner Level *0.25 + (Adept, Aristocrat, Expert Level) *0.33 + Warrior Level *0.4 + PC-Class Level * 0.5
+ wealth equally to PC level.

For example, if you had a commoner 12, with a crude pitchfork (no reasonable value), this would be a nice and fair encounter for a 3rd level party.

If you had a Warrior 6 /Fighter 2 with Full Plate +1, Flaming Greatsword +1 and 2000 gp in potions (recomended wealth for a 6th level PC), it would be a good fight for a 1.5+1+3 group somewhere between Level 5 and 6.

Or last, a wizard 11 with lot's of spells (treat as a scroll each, don't forget the free 2/level) in his book worth 19000 gp (Level 7 PC money) would be a good encounter for a 5.5 + 3.5 = Level 9 group

These estimates NPCs slightly lesser then the DMG rules, but offers more flexibility and is overall fairer when compairing fights vs. monsters and NPCs (still not totally fair).
runestar
12-19-06, 11:37 AM Also, the cr assumes you play to the NPC's strengths and manage to give full play to his special abilities.

Naturally, a ranger will be over cr'ed if you just clad him in light armour and send him charging headlong towards the party. So don't complain when the party barb slices him into ribbons within seconds.

He should be some sort of stalker/sniper, harassing the party over time with animal companions while they rest for the night, hiding in the trees and sending occasional pot shots their way, forcing them to expend valuable resources on "imaginary targets" before finally making his grand appearance.
Empyrium
12-19-06, 10:16 PM hehe yeah...

Thx for the advice :D
Lecen_of_Mitran
12-19-06, 10:37 PM It all depends on what you mean with CR.
No, you are not missing anything, NPCs are very easy encounters, compared with monsters.

Lecen_of_Mitran: Well, it does not say that clearly, but probably the answer is "both". A level 9 fighter is CR 9. With NPC wealth or PC wealth. It shows again, that CR does not say everything about the difficulty of a challenge.

Let's forget the official CR for a while.
I think the best formula for low-powered groups (3 good characters, or a sub-optimal 4 character group) is:

Commoner Level *0.25 + (Adept, Aristocrat, Expert Level) *0.33 + Warrior Level *0.4 + PC-Class Level * 0.5
+ wealth equally to PC level.

For example, if you had a commoner 12, with a crude pitchfork (no reasonable value), this would be a nice and fair encounter for a 3rd level party.

If you had a Warrior 6 /Fighter 2 with Full Plate +1, Flaming Greatsword +1 and 2000 gp in potions (recomended wealth for a 6th level PC), it would be a good fight for a 1.5+1+3 group somewhere between Level 5 and 6.

Or last, a wizard 11 with lot's of spells (treat as a scroll each, don't forget the free 2/level) in his book worth 19000 gp (Level 7 PC money) would be a good encounter for a 5.5 + 3.5 = Level 9 group

These estimates NPCs slightly lesser then the DMG rules, but offers more flexibility and is overall fairer when compairing fights vs. monsters and NPCs (still not totally fair).

Wait a second. A PC Fighter atl lvl 20 has 760.000 g.p. in wealth value, while a NPC Fighter has 200.000 g.p, do you think they should have the same CR?
runestar
12-19-06, 10:50 PM Wait a second. A PC Fighter atl lvl 20 has 760.000 g.p. in wealth value, while a NPC Fighter has 200.000 g.p, do you think they should have the same CR?
No. The PC fighter will be ECL20, the npc fighter is cr20. ECL and cr and completely separate criteria calculated off different factors, and thus should never be confused for each other, nor should they be used interchangeably.:)

The NPC fighter is expected to drain about 20% of the PC fighter's resources, which seems about right.
Maraxus
12-21-06, 08:44 PM Wait a second. A PC Fighter atl lvl 20 has 760.000 g.p. in wealth value, while a NPC Fighter has 200.000 g.p, do you think they should have the same CR?

No, and that's why my formular includes wealth totally independent from levels.

A fighter 20 with 760.000 had a CR of 20, while a Fighter 20 with 200.000 gp (level 15 wealth) had a CR of 17.5.

In contrast to written rules, those have no rules about that and a Fighter 20 has CR 20, no matter what, and he shall best have about 200.000 wealth.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Empyrium 12-19-06, 09:37 AM	How exactly do yuo calculate a single individual's CR? For example a Lvl 8 Ranger? Just gimme the general tutorial please?:weep:
jaelis 12-19-06, 09:49 AM	A character with the elite stat array and levels in a PC class has a CR equal to his level. A character with the nonelite stat array and levels in an NPC class has a CR equal to his level minus 1. For something in between (say an NPC class with the elite array, or mixed PC and NPC classes), the DM will need to decide. I'd factor the NPC's gear into that decision pretty heavily too.
xaqariah 12-19-06, 09:53 AM	The CR of a character is its Level plus any Level Adjustment. NPC Classes are one CR less. A Level 8 Ranger would be CR 8. (8 Ranger Levels) A Level 8 Gnoll Ranger would be CR 9. (8 Ranger Levels plus LA + 1 from being a Gnoll) A Level 8 Warrior would be a CR 7. (8 Warrior Levels plus -1 for having at least one NPC Class Level) A Rogue 4, Fighter 4 would be CR 8. (8 PC Class Levels) A Rogue 4, Warrior 4 would be CR 7. (4 PC Class Levels plus 4 NPC Levels minus 1 for having at least one NPC Class Level) A Gnoll Rogue 4, Warrior 4 would be CR 8. (4 PC Class Levels plus 4 NPC Levels minus 1 for having at least one NPC Class Level plus LA +1 from being a Gnoll) Hope this helps!
Empyrium 12-19-06, 10:22 AM	Okay... But aren't pc's elite arrays as well? How is a Lvl 8 ranger on his own suppose to be a challange to a party of Lvl 8 characters? Or am I missing something here?
jaelis 12-19-06, 10:26 AM	A CR 8 encounter should be an even match for a single level 8 character. A party of four level 8 characters should be able to handle four CR 8 encounters every day.
Lecen_of_Mitran 12-19-06, 10:33 AM	Let´s say we have a human Fighter 9. His CR it is 9. Here, we´re talking about NPCs (so, their wealth is different from PCs). What should be the CR from a PC then? A human Fighter 9?
Empyrium 12-19-06, 10:46 AM	Cr 9 no? I don't know why this seems so confusing :confused: I think I get it...
Maraxus 12-19-06, 11:11 AM	It all depends on what you mean with CR. Okay... But aren't pc's elite arrays as well? How is a Lvl 8 ranger on his own suppose to be a challange to a party of Lvl 8 characters? Or am I missing something here?No, you are not missing anything, NPCs are very easy encounters, compared with monsters. Lecen_of_Mitran: Well, it does not say that clearly, but probably the answer is "both". A level 9 fighter is CR 9. With NPC wealth or PC wealth. It shows again, that CR does not say everything about the difficulty of a challenge. Let's forget the official CR for a while. I think the best formula for low-powered groups (3 good characters, or a sub-optimal 4 character group) is: Commoner Level 0.25 + (Adept, Aristocrat, Expert Level) 0.33 + Warrior Level 0.4 + PC-Class Level 0.5 + wealth equally to PC level. For example, if you had a commoner 12, with a crude pitchfork (no reasonable value), this would be a nice and fair encounter for a 3rd level party. If you had a Warrior 6 /Fighter 2 with Full Plate +1, Flaming Greatsword +1 and 2000 gp in potions (recomended wealth for a 6th level PC), it would be a good fight for a 1.5+1+3 group somewhere between Level 5 and 6. Or last, a wizard 11 with lot's of spells (treat as a scroll each, don't forget the free 2/level) in his book worth 19000 gp (Level 7 PC money) would be a good encounter for a 5.5 + 3.5 = Level 9 group These estimates NPCs slightly lesser then the DMG rules, but offers more flexibility and is overall fairer when compairing fights vs. monsters and NPCs (still not totally fair).
runestar 12-19-06, 11:37 AM	Also, the cr assumes you play to the NPC's strengths and manage to give full play to his special abilities. Naturally, a ranger will be over cr'ed if you just clad him in light armour and send him charging headlong towards the party. So don't complain when the party barb slices him into ribbons within seconds. He should be some sort of stalker/sniper, harassing the party over time with animal companions while they rest for the night, hiding in the trees and sending occasional pot shots their way, forcing them to expend valuable resources on "imaginary targets" before finally making his grand appearance.
Empyrium 12-19-06, 10:16 PM	hehe yeah... Thx for the advice :D
Lecen_of_Mitran 12-19-06, 10:37 PM	It all depends on what you mean with CR. No, you are not missing anything, NPCs are very easy encounters, compared with monsters. Lecen_of_Mitran: Well, it does not say that clearly, but probably the answer is "both". A level 9 fighter is CR 9. With NPC wealth or PC wealth. It shows again, that CR does not say everything about the difficulty of a challenge. Let's forget the official CR for a while. I think the best formula for low-powered groups (3 good characters, or a sub-optimal 4 character group) is: Commoner Level 0.25 + (Adept, Aristocrat, Expert Level) 0.33 + Warrior Level 0.4 + PC-Class Level 0.5 + wealth equally to PC level. For example, if you had a commoner 12, with a crude pitchfork (no reasonable value), this would be a nice and fair encounter for a 3rd level party. If you had a Warrior 6 /Fighter 2 with Full Plate +1, Flaming Greatsword +1 and 2000 gp in potions (recomended wealth for a 6th level PC), it would be a good fight for a 1.5+1+3 group somewhere between Level 5 and 6. Or last, a wizard 11 with lot's of spells (treat as a scroll each, don't forget the free 2/level) in his book worth 19000 gp (Level 7 PC money) would be a good encounter for a 5.5 + 3.5 = Level 9 group These estimates NPCs slightly lesser then the DMG rules, but offers more flexibility and is overall fairer when compairing fights vs. monsters and NPCs (still not totally fair). Wait a second. A PC Fighter atl lvl 20 has 760.000 g.p. in wealth value, while a NPC Fighter has 200.000 g.p, do you think they should have the same CR?
runestar 12-19-06, 10:50 PM	Wait a second. A PC Fighter atl lvl 20 has 760.000 g.p. in wealth value, while a NPC Fighter has 200.000 g.p, do you think they should have the same CR? No. The PC fighter will be ECL20, the npc fighter is cr20. ECL and cr and completely separate criteria calculated off different factors, and thus should never be confused for each other, nor should they be used interchangeably.:) The NPC fighter is expected to drain about 20% of the PC fighter's resources, which seems about right.
Maraxus 12-21-06, 08:44 PM	Wait a second. A PC Fighter atl lvl 20 has 760.000 g.p. in wealth value, while a NPC Fighter has 200.000 g.p, do you think they should have the same CR? No, and that's why my formular includes wealth totally independent from levels. A fighter 20 with 760.000 had a CR of 20, while a Fighter 20 with 200.000 gp (level 15 wealth) had a CR of 17.5. In contrast to written rules, those have no rules about that and a Fighter 20 has CR 20, no matter what, and he shall best have about 200.000 wealth.