Character VS. Army [Archive] - Wizards Community

Character VS. Army [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sneak_Attack
06-16-07, 12:35 PM If the fighter in the party attacks a squad of lvl.1 human warriors, and the warriors can only hit on a 20, is it better for them to start a mass-grapple with the fighter?
Anyone wanna give an explanation on the rules for mass-grappling?
Mastel
06-16-07, 12:49 PM You can use the rules for a mob. DMGII P.59

They acte as a single monster. The basic is similar to the swarm.
Sneak_Attack
06-16-07, 02:21 PM But as I see it, Cleave and Great Cleave is WERY useful while fighting squads (mobs) like this. But will Cleave be usable with the rules for a mob?
Derren S.
06-16-07, 03:16 PM I advise against using mob rules as they simply make no sense as they have abilities which are far more powerfull than what 30 single soldiers could do combined.

Grapple, coupled with Aid Another is always a good strategy for swarm enemies.
BW0222
06-16-07, 03:40 PM Sneak_Attack,

Flasks of oil are normally pretty effective. Even if only half hit that is about 5d6 damage in the first round and 5d6 in the second round plus some splash and possible burn damage.

Achemists fire is possible, but not many low level would be equiped with it. Oil is relatively common if only for lamps.
Sneak_Attack
06-16-07, 03:48 PM So I can say like
"You are surrounded by the great evil-spitting-while-talking-teachers-army; they can only hit you on a 20 and do like 1d6 damage on every blow, and if you don't have any lamp oil (which you don't have because you all have darkvision) you are stuck there for rounds and rounds until you kill them all (wery not likely) or till you die from aging."
Mastel
06-16-07, 04:01 PM I agree with Derren mob have a lot of thing hard to understand.

Cleave & great cleave does not work anymore.

the way i see it, it is very hard to be at your best when you are surrended by hundreds of warriors.

Using the aid a another is a very good option & simple.
BW0222
06-16-07, 05:44 PM Sneak_Attack,

"You are surrounded by the great evil-spitting-while-talking-teachers-army; they can only hit you on a 20 and do like 1d6 damage on every blow, and if you don't have any lamp oil (which you don't have because you all have darkvision) you are stuck there for rounds and rounds until you kill them all (wery not likely) or till you die from aging."

If a DM said this to me I smack him.

First, how does the player character know that they can only hit on a 20? Maybe they are all 5th-level? Maybe they have spells? That is meta-gaming at it's worst.

Second, how does the player character know that they don't have oil? Do they have x-ray vision and can look in the pouches of all the bad guys? Again, terrible meta-gaming.

Third, why wouldn't creatures with darkvision carry oil or alchemists fire? Presumably if their boss is fighting more powerful creatures he might take a few hundred gold out of his treasure pile and equip his army so that they have some chance of defeating more powerful enemies. I can't see any reason not to give a few folks some flasks of oil, potions, etc.

Forth, doesn't the army have sergeants and lieutenants? I mean wouldn't the army have a few higher level fighters, a few clerics, and maybe a few arcane casters to back up the troops.

Sixth, how stupid is this BBEG to not equip an army with reasonable (and cheap) methods of standing up to typical encounters? I'm going to assume that he isn't going to spend months raising an army only to see if destroyed because some bear or troll wanders into them.

If characters want to make assumptions, fine. Personally, I think they would be stupid assumptions, but players are free to make them. However, you don't tell the players that the army can't defeat them unless they have some way of knowing it.

And if the army can't defeat them, then they'll know it (either their leader should tell them or they'll discover it after a few rounds of combat) and they should change tactics -- i.e. flee, go get help, surrender with the promise of (possibly false) information, etc.

Personally, if some party was going after some 10th-level BBEG who had an army of say 50 kobolds.

40 kobolds might be warriors. Outcasts from some tribe say.
6 kobold sergeants would be fighter/1.
3 kobolds would be sorceror/1.
1 kobolds would be sorceror/3.
I'd also toss in some giant lizards.

I'd certainly equip them with shortbows, oil, a few masterwork arrows each. Sergeants would each have say three +1 frost arrows, potions of cure light and maybe some smoke sticks. I've give each sorceror some alchemists fire, a left-over wand (say 5 charges of grease, magic missile, or cause fear) plus each getting a couple of higher level scrolls -- say mirror image, scare, and resist energy) and a couple of cure light potions. The leader sorceror would a wand of magic missile (at 3rd with 10 charges) and a couple of more powerful scrolls -- say lightning bolt, slow, and wind wall.

Being kobolds... they'd immediately scatter forming a ring and take cover. Any group the PCs approached would flee (possibly using smoke sticks, alchemists fire, etc. to pull back), while those on the far side of the room/circle fire arrows and (once they realize they can't hit) oil. Casters would try their wands, grease spells, and obsuring mist spells to make it difficult for PCs to get more than a handful of kobolds in melee. The leaders would try slow, lightning bolt (and then run) and finally their spells.

For about 5,000gp you have equiped these folks sufficiently to survive encounters which they are likely to run into. A wandering a group of six bugbears or a armored troll isn't going to destroy half their army. Most of the time, they won't need to dip into its special items, but if something nasty comes along they can drive it off using only a few hundred gold pieces of equipment which their BBEG patron can easily re-supply if necessary.
tui
06-18-07, 04:25 PM As others have pointed out, Aid Another can be VERY helpful for lots of low-level (expendable) enemies attacking one more powerful creature. All they have to do is hit AC 10, which should be at least a 50/50 chance... and the +2 bonus stacks. So if one character was swarmed on all sides, two levels deep, by bad guys with reach weapons available, I think you can get 20 enemies all attacking in the same round. So 19 of them do an Aid Another, and the 20th gets a big bonus to hit (probably somewhere between +19 to +38, depending on how many hit AC 10).

Or they split up and 9 aid one, 9 another, and they each get +8 to +18 to hit. Either way, those are pretty good odds against even many higher level characters. (Not that they'll actually do much damage, even when they DO hit...)

Switching to Mass Grappling, as the OP asked, you can use the Aid Another to initiate the grapple if the character has a very high Touch AC.. once a grapple is initiated, up to 4 same-sized opponents can grapple a character, and he has to break all 4 of them to get away.

Here's an excerpt from the grapple section of the SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/specialAttacks.html).

Joining a Grapple

If your target is already grappling someone else, you can use an attack to start a grapple, as above, except that the target doesn’t get an attack of opportunity against you, and your grab automatically succeeds. You still have to make a successful opposed grapple check to become part of the grapple.

If there are multiple opponents involved in the grapple, you pick one to make the opposed grapple check against.

Multiple Grapplers

Several combatants can be in a single grapple. Up to four combatants can grapple a single opponent in a given round. Creatures that are one or more size categories smaller than you count for half, creatures that are one size category larger than you count double, and creatures two or more size categories larger count quadruple.

When you are grappling with multiple opponents, you choose one opponent to make an opposed check against. The exception is an attempt to escape from the grapple; to successfully escape, your grapple check must beat the check results of each opponent.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sneak_Attack 06-16-07, 12:35 PM	If the fighter in the party attacks a squad of lvl.1 human warriors, and the warriors can only hit on a 20, is it better for them to start a mass-grapple with the fighter? Anyone wanna give an explanation on the rules for mass-grappling?
Mastel 06-16-07, 12:49 PM	You can use the rules for a mob. DMGII P.59 They acte as a single monster. The basic is similar to the swarm.
Sneak_Attack 06-16-07, 02:21 PM	But as I see it, Cleave and Great Cleave is WERY useful while fighting squads (mobs) like this. But will Cleave be usable with the rules for a mob?
Derren S. 06-16-07, 03:16 PM	I advise against using mob rules as they simply make no sense as they have abilities which are far more powerfull than what 30 single soldiers could do combined. Grapple, coupled with Aid Another is always a good strategy for swarm enemies.
BW0222 06-16-07, 03:40 PM	Sneak_Attack, Flasks of oil are normally pretty effective. Even if only half hit that is about 5d6 damage in the first round and 5d6 in the second round plus some splash and possible burn damage. Achemists fire is possible, but not many low level would be equiped with it. Oil is relatively common if only for lamps.
Sneak_Attack 06-16-07, 03:48 PM	So I can say like "You are surrounded by the great evil-spitting-while-talking-teachers-army; they can only hit you on a 20 and do like 1d6 damage on every blow, and if you don't have any lamp oil (which you don't have because you all have darkvision) you are stuck there for rounds and rounds until you kill them all (wery not likely) or till you die from aging."
Mastel 06-16-07, 04:01 PM	I agree with Derren mob have a lot of thing hard to understand. Cleave & great cleave does not work anymore. the way i see it, it is very hard to be at your best when you are surrended by hundreds of warriors. Using the aid a another is a very good option & simple.
BW0222 06-16-07, 05:44 PM	Sneak_Attack, "You are surrounded by the great evil-spitting-while-talking-teachers-army; they can only hit you on a 20 and do like 1d6 damage on every blow, and if you don't have any lamp oil (which you don't have because you all have darkvision) you are stuck there for rounds and rounds until you kill them all (wery not likely) or till you die from aging." If a DM said this to me I smack him. First, how does the player character know that they can only hit on a 20? Maybe they are all 5th-level? Maybe they have spells? That is meta-gaming at it's worst. Second, how does the player character know that they don't have oil? Do they have x-ray vision and can look in the pouches of all the bad guys? Again, terrible meta-gaming. Third, why wouldn't creatures with darkvision carry oil or alchemists fire? Presumably if their boss is fighting more powerful creatures he might take a few hundred gold out of his treasure pile and equip his army so that they have some chance of defeating more powerful enemies. I can't see any reason not to give a few folks some flasks of oil, potions, etc. Forth, doesn't the army have sergeants and lieutenants? I mean wouldn't the army have a few higher level fighters, a few clerics, and maybe a few arcane casters to back up the troops. Sixth, how stupid is this BBEG to not equip an army with reasonable (and cheap) methods of standing up to typical encounters? I'm going to assume that he isn't going to spend months raising an army only to see if destroyed because some bear or troll wanders into them. If characters want to make assumptions, fine. Personally, I think they would be stupid assumptions, but players are free to make them. However, you don't tell the players that the army can't defeat them unless they have some way of knowing it. And if the army can't defeat them, then they'll know it (either their leader should tell them or they'll discover it after a few rounds of combat) and they should change tactics -- i.e. flee, go get help, surrender with the promise of (possibly false) information, etc. Personally, if some party was going after some 10th-level BBEG who had an army of say 50 kobolds. 40 kobolds might be warriors. Outcasts from some tribe say. 6 kobold sergeants would be fighter/1. 3 kobolds would be sorceror/1. 1 kobolds would be sorceror/3. I'd also toss in some giant lizards. I'd certainly equip them with shortbows, oil, a few masterwork arrows each. Sergeants would each have say three +1 frost arrows, potions of cure light and maybe some smoke sticks. I've give each sorceror some alchemists fire, a left-over wand (say 5 charges of grease, magic missile, or cause fear) plus each getting a couple of higher level scrolls -- say mirror image, scare, and resist energy) and a couple of cure light potions. The leader sorceror would a wand of magic missile (at 3rd with 10 charges) and a couple of more powerful scrolls -- say lightning bolt, slow, and wind wall. Being kobolds... they'd immediately scatter forming a ring and take cover. Any group the PCs approached would flee (possibly using smoke sticks, alchemists fire, etc. to pull back), while those on the far side of the room/circle fire arrows and (once they realize they can't hit) oil. Casters would try their wands, grease spells, and obsuring mist spells to make it difficult for PCs to get more than a handful of kobolds in melee. The leaders would try slow, lightning bolt (and then run) and finally their spells. For about 5,000gp you have equiped these folks sufficiently to survive encounters which they are likely to run into. A wandering a group of six bugbears or a armored troll isn't going to destroy half their army. Most of the time, they won't need to dip into its special items, but if something nasty comes along they can drive it off using only a few hundred gold pieces of equipment which their BBEG patron can easily re-supply if necessary.
tui 06-18-07, 04:25 PM	As others have pointed out, Aid Another can be VERY helpful for lots of low-level (expendable) enemies attacking one more powerful creature. All they have to do is hit AC 10, which should be at least a 50/50 chance... and the +2 bonus stacks. So if one character was swarmed on all sides, two levels deep, by bad guys with reach weapons available, I think you can get 20 enemies all attacking in the same round. So 19 of them do an Aid Another, and the 20th gets a big bonus to hit (probably somewhere between +19 to +38, depending on how many hit AC 10). Or they split up and 9 aid one, 9 another, and they each get +8 to +18 to hit. Either way, those are pretty good odds against even many higher level characters. (Not that they'll actually do much damage, even when they DO hit...) Switching to Mass Grappling, as the OP asked, you can use the Aid Another to initiate the grapple if the character has a very high Touch AC.. once a grapple is initiated, up to 4 same-sized opponents can grapple a character, and he has to break all 4 of them to get away. Here's an excerpt from the grapple section of the SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/specialAttacks.html). Joining a Grapple If your target is already grappling someone else, you can use an attack to start a grapple, as above, except that the target doesn’t get an attack of opportunity against you, and your grab automatically succeeds. You still have to make a successful opposed grapple check to become part of the grapple. If there are multiple opponents involved in the grapple, you pick one to make the opposed grapple check against. Multiple Grapplers Several combatants can be in a single grapple. Up to four combatants can grapple a single opponent in a given round. Creatures that are one or more size categories smaller than you count for half, creatures that are one size category larger than you count double, and creatures two or more size categories larger count quadruple. When you are grappling with multiple opponents, you choose one opponent to make an opposed check against. The exception is an attempt to escape from the grapple; to successfully escape, your grapple check must beat the check results of each opponent.