Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mystical-Unibrow 02-13-08, 01:32 PM	This may seem like a basic question, however recently I've found out that my, "quite obvious", answer does not in fact match with the "quite obvious" answers of my friends. My answer was that the table represents of wealth gain in such way that it shows how much money you should gain from one to another level. Eg. if at lvl 1 I have 1000 gp, and at lvl 2 I have 2000 gp, then that means that I should earn 1000 gp going from 1st level to 2nd. Here lies the important bit, the way I see it - these 1000 gp are only allowance you get from one level to the next. If you spend it on expendable items (scrolls, potions), and use them, then that part of wealth is gone. Their answer was that roughly by level-up point, you should have the stated amount of wealth, EOD. Regardless weather I saved my money till the 2nd level, or if I spent all of wealth gained in the meanwhile on one-shoters which I promptly spent, I would still have the 2000 gp by the 2nd level. Any posessions used up by that imaginary level-up point were recompensated. I find it difficult to believe that players should be given recompensation for expendable items. Such items become in effect almost free, and their use is limited only by supply and temporary cash flow. While DMs could certainly make a fair-play agreement with the players not to overuse this, the fact is that there are classes and characters who have greater potential for using one-shot items than others. Compare a fighter, who in such a system can get only weak potions, with a rogue who could use any potion, scroll and wand of most any level, with a near endless supply. It is a derivation of this rule that bothers my friends the most. The starting wealth at given level. By my interpretation, at any given level you will be slightly behind the value in the table, due to expended scrolls and potions. As a rule of thumb, new characters in my campaigns start with 15% less wealth than in the table, representing the one-shoters spent in their imaginary past. Their criticism is that this unevenly penalyzes new characters, as not all of them would spend the same amount on expendables. Of course, their interpretation is what even I concede is RAW, that a new character simply starts off with the full value of wealth. The only reason I go against this is to bring the new members in line with existing characters which have followed the first rule. As I said, on this last point I can't but conceded it is RAW, and by going back to the first part, I'd probably also have to say their's is RAW, but I just can't get over the recompensation thing.
Plothos 02-13-08, 01:50 PM	I agree that their character wealth guidelines could have been made clearer. Here's how I've always thought they worked (though I admit I hadn't agonized over the accuracy of this analysis): The table labeled Starting Character Wealth by Level (or words to that effect; I'm writing this from memory) is pretty clearly meant to be what you start with when you make a new PC of a certain level. They do indicate that this is generated by appeal to the average gains one would expect to have gotten using the random treasure tables, typical encounters, etc., but that this is modified, that is reduced, by the expected usage of expedible items. That is, a PC created at 8th level should have such and such money because he's presumed to have used up (or had his companions do so to his benefit) a fraction of the expected wealth. Given this, I've always thought you're right and that expendible items, if the party sees fit to blow their wad on them, are just gone. They're emergency items for the most part, or utility scrolls to allow you to focus your prepared spells on stuff you know you'll use and not have to keep memorizing knock or endure elements just in case. What this required of me as DM was that I ensured that the PCs got a little bit more than the table indicated (which I considered to be the metric for their more permanent possessions) when they leveled during the course of a campaign, so that they could buy the odd contingency scroll. If they chose to spend more of their wealth on expendibles, well they have that option. I have no idea if this is definitely how the tables are intended to be used, but I think it's consistent with the RAW on at least one reading, and it's how I've handled this issue thus far. shrug
mvincent 02-13-08, 04:15 PM	I find it difficult to believe that players should be given recompensation for expendable items.The wealth by level table is for creating characters. While it is also a good approximation of where existing PC's might be, their actual wealth will indeed vary wildly depending on how wisely they've spent their money, which creatures (or adventures) they've encountered, how thoroughly they search for loot, whether they sale or keep certain loot, etc. That's part of the fun of role-playing.
mplindustries 02-13-08, 07:59 PM	This may seem like a basic question, however recently I've found out that my, "quite obvious", answer does not in fact match with the "quite obvious" answers of my friends. My answer was that the table represents of wealth gain in such way that it shows how much money you should gain from one to another level. Eg. if at lvl 1 I have 1000 gp, and at lvl 2 I have 2000 gp, then that means that I should earn 1000 gp going from 1st level to 2nd. Here lies the important bit, the way I see it - these 1000 gp are only allowance you get from one level to the next. If you spend it on expendable items (scrolls, potions), and use them, then that part of wealth is gone. Their answer was that roughly by level-up point, you should have the stated amount of wealth, EOD. Regardless weather I saved my money till the 2nd level, or if I spent all of wealth gained in the meanwhile on one-shoters which I promptly spent, I would still have the 2000 gp by the 2nd level. Any posessions used up by that imaginary level-up point were recompensated. I find it difficult to believe that players should be given recompensation for expendable items. Such items become in effect almost free, and their use is limited only by supply and temporary cash flow. While DMs could certainly make a fair-play agreement with the players not to overuse this, the fact is that there are classes and characters who have greater potential for using one-shot items than others. Compare a fighter, who in such a system can get only weak potions, with a rogue who could use any potion, scroll and wand of most any level, with a near endless supply. It is a derivation of this rule that bothers my friends the most. The starting wealth at given level. By my interpretation, at any given level you will be slightly behind the value in the table, due to expended scrolls and potions. As a rule of thumb, new characters in my campaigns start with 15% less wealth than in the table, representing the one-shoters spent in their imaginary past. Their criticism is that this unevenly penalyzes new characters, as not all of them would spend the same amount on expendables. Of course, their interpretation is what even I concede is RAW, that a new character simply starts off with the full value of wealth. The only reason I go against this is to bring the new members in line with existing characters which have followed the first rule. As I said, on this last point I can't but conceded it is RAW, and by going back to the first part, I'd probably also have to say their's is RAW, but I just can't get over the recompensation thing. I personally despise using non-renewable resources like potions, scrolls, wands, etc. I don't see why you would automatically assume everyone would waste money on stuff they'll be basically pouring down the drain later. I know I'm crazy, but you can't discount the possibility of crazy. Besides, its your game, give them whatever you want. I don't use wealth by level. Its absurd. Why, if I have something like 50,000 gold, would I keep adventuring? Why the hell wouldn't I just retire and live in style? Why wouldn't I invest that or something? Its just ridiculous. When I run a game, I give the players mundane masterwork equipment usually, and some coins. If they are high enough level, they get an established place to stay. Of course, when you do it my way, you have to do it all the way, and throw CR out the window. I actually custom build all of my enemies/npcs/whatever. Its worked out well. Oh, and the rare time the party does get a magic item, its usually one of the focal points for the campaign. I know I would never spend my time or XP on some +1 sword of boringness, why would anyone else? Anyway, the other people already gave you the RAW answer. You give them the listed amount, not 15% less or anything like that. The chart was made for people starting at a higher level, and it represents the average amount of money worth of gear you have at any given time, not the total amount of money you've ever had in your life. When someone asks you how much money you have, do you stop and do a calculation to determine how much you've ever spent on food, tickets to stuff, and whatever else that you've expended? I didn't think so.
Red_Wizard 02-14-08, 10:19 AM	Short answer here, but all expendables count towards wealth. So if one player manages to blow their allotted 1000 ish GP, then all the others are ahead of them in Value. Trying to do this otherwise makes it extremely unfair for characters who don't have the wide range of disposable items, such as the Wizard. For example, would it seem fair to allow the wizard to Buy a wand of Fireball, expend it all level, and then get his gold back as though it never happened. Perhaps if the CR goes up, but then the rest of the party is liable to suffer. That said, taking it to the opposite extreme is slightly silly as well. I can think of many reasons why someone with 50 000 gp wouldn't simply retire and sit on his wealth, but that is difference in opinion. Often times that 50 000 isn't in coin or gem, it's in items that no average city could afford to take off your hands for the desired coin. I might have 50 000 gp in Cape, weapons and Boots, but just because I am better in combat now doesn't mean that I can retire and hope for a better life than the average farmer. Most adventurers live and die for the excitement of their career, so retiring to some life of gluttony, or town militia isn't so appealing. Myself personally have the situation handled by dividing up Group wealth, and Individual wealth. This means that as DM I know that the group has the combined total give or take a couple K in gold and items, and that the Party is then left to decide how things are divvied up. Any personal expenses do not affect group wealth, but are to be calculated in individual wealth. So if you go drinking of gambling, the party doesn't suffer your coin expenditure. -RW
Merestil Haye 02-14-08, 11:00 AM	Can you say the word "nightmare?" The bookkeeping required to track a character's use of consumable items if expended items counted towards current wealth limits would fast blow through nightmare and into game-destroying. There would be endless arguments about being under-equipped. To properly resolve them, you would have to note on the character sheet every single consumable item the player has ever owned, and the value of such things. Does that sound like fun? How may people keep track of eyelashes? Of phials of bat dung? Of live spiders? Keeping track of used potions sounds like just as much fun. For accountants, it may be enthralling, but not for most gamers. The answer is that you don't count consumed items against the character's wealth. Consumables they haven't yet consumed count, but once a scroll is gone it is gone. The wealth-by-level guidelines are what the game designers use as assumptions of PC wealth when writing adventures. So they will assume, for example, that 7th level characters currently have something around 19k of equipment each - maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less - and they will design the adventure such that it if it requires a specific item, that the PCs level is such that the WBL of a character of that level is greater than the value of the required item. For example, a 7th level adventure will never require the PCs to possess a Helm of Underwater Action. If you've counted all the consumables a PC has used in his career to date into his wealth, he will be significantly under-equipped (going by the assumptions of module writers) and thus have a harder time of it than one who has never so much as looked at a scroll.
Kalsyre 02-14-08, 11:35 AM	Another factor to consider when calculating character wealth by level is if that character has a crafting feat. If a character has a crafting feat the cost in gold pieces for the items they make is half what it would cost them to buy them. In our group we use the Character Wealth by Level chart as a guideline. We dont calculate wands, scrolls, or potions as part of character wealth. We also dont count party loot like a bag of holding or group gold for raise dead services. When I DM, I keep a list of everyone's magic items excluding consumables (wands, scrolls, potions). This gives me a good base with witch to compare the players to each other and to the character wealth by lvl chart. Then out to the side of each item I make a note if it was a DROP, BUY, or CRAFT. Items that players buy or craft come from the same source.... (party gold splits). Crafters get more bang for their buck, which they should since they spent a feat. This leaves just dropped items. If you run a module the magic items are pretty balanced. But what if you have a group where everyone wears plate mail? Or if you roll random loot and you roll 4 headbands of intellect? As a DM I make sure everyone gets something that is a good fit for their character. It may not be what the player wanted, but its an item that their character can and will use. Then the players customize theur characters items with split gold.
Red_Wizard 02-14-08, 11:45 AM	Can you say the word "nightmare?" The bookkeeping required to track a character's use of consumable items if expended items counted towards current wealth limits would fast blow through nightmare and into game-destroying. There would be endless arguments about being under-equipped. To properly resolve them, you would have to note on the character sheet every single consumable item the player has ever owned, and the value of such things. Does that sound like fun? How may people keep track of eyelashes? Of phials of bat dung? Of live spiders? Keeping track of used potions sounds like just as much fun. For accountants, it may be enthralling, but not for most gamers. The answer is that you don't count consumed items against the character's wealth. Consumables they haven't yet consumed count, but once a scroll is gone it is gone. The wealth-by-level guidelines are what the game designers use as assumptions of PC wealth when writing adventures. So they will assume, for example, that 7th level characters currently have something around 19k of equipment each - maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less - and they will design the adventure such that it if it requires a specific item, that the PCs level is such that the WBL of a character of that level is greater than the value of the required item. For example, a 7th level adventure will never require the PCs to possess a Helm of Underwater Action. If you've counted all the consumables a PC has used in his career to date into his wealth, he will be significantly under-equipped (going by the assumptions of module writers) and thus have a harder time of it than one who has never so much as looked at a scroll. How do you figure? I personally have had no issue, and this has never, EVER slowed the game down. As DM, you should always be keeping track of items handed out, that's just good DMing. As a Player, you should already have a list of you items, Permanent and not, and a list of your gold. Subtracting your gold when you buy something is a given, and crossing off used potions isn't that hard. If you're not, then you're cheating, so thus far I can't see where your issue lies. Lastly, the only thing I add that gets calculated maybe once every 6-8 sessions, is total item value. This is simple as well, as all you need do is take the total value of your items and gold on yourself, and tally it up. This gives the DM and idea of how much is needed to balance things out. You count items used if they're expensive, and gold spent if it was from the current level. Also, if you have bought and resold an item, the cost of it new is the one factored in, and not the resale price. This instance is particular, as it assumes the PC bought the item, and then resold it later. Over all not complicated, and keeps everyone virtually exactly where the book suggests. As for your comment on bat dung, and spider legs, I can only assume you mean spell components. If that is indeed the case, so long as the player carries a spell pouch, the RAW states that they are assumed to have any mundane component required for their spells of 1 gp or less. -RW
mvincent 02-14-08, 12:56 PM	As DM, you should always be keeping track of items handed out, that's just good DMing.I think the point is keeping track up everything the PC's have used up (ammo, rations, potions, scrolls, etc.). Oddly, I do personally keep track of this in a detailed spreadsheet, but it's definitely not an expectation of the game. The wealth by level chart figures a PC's approximately current total assuming he has been using some expendables. If a PC avoided using up any expendables, overall he should have more than the expected wealth table.
Red_Wizard 02-14-08, 01:37 PM	Potions and scrolls though are a goodly portion of most adventurers wealth. I simply write them off, is giving the PC's a free handout that WILL increase their combat ability significantly. As for ammo and rations, those can be written off for the most part with ease. I Mean your average meal is a few silvers, and arrows only a gold for 20 or more? Not to mention the ability to loot such things from most compounds, or kitchens. I mean one can become ludicrous with how nit picky they want to be, but it was never my intent to suggest that such trivial things be accounted for. Unless the arrows are magical, or the food being bought in bulk to feed the tows people, I see no reason why one can't simply assume such things are available and received as needed. -RW
Merestil Haye 02-14-08, 01:46 PM	How do you figure? I personally have had no issue, and this has never, EVER slowed the game down. As DM, you should always be keeping track of items handed out, that's just good DMing. As a Player, you should already have a list of you items, Permanent and not, and a list of your gold. Subtracting your gold when you buy something is a given, and crossing off used potions isn't that hard. If you're not, then you're cheating, so thus far I can't see where your issue lies.What I am saying is this. The Wealth by level guidelines show the general level of gear that a character is supposed to have at that point in his career. It is not a guideline on how much has passed through his hands. The last campaign I ran lasted about a year of real-life time, and took the characters from second level (I hate DMing for first level characters) all the way to 20th. Most of the PCs finished off with the experience to be 21st. Now, if I follow the OPs logic, the healing potions that the character acquired and used in September should count towards the wealth that the character has in March, six months (and approximately 10 levels) later.How do you expect any of us to remember that? The only way is to have a sheet of paper where you record expended gear. Of course you count consumables that the character has on him. But keeping track of everything the character has ever owned is burdensome, time-consuming and leads to intra-party fights. My bringing up spell components in this discussion was to demonstrate that the game designers recognise that keeping track of finicky, nitpicking details is unfun. So they find ways to avoid it. Tracking everything you've used is also unfun. So the game designers don't expect you to.
mvincent 02-14-08, 02:53 PM	it was never my intent to suggest that such trivial things be accounted for. Unless the arrows are magicalI wasn't really meaning trivial stuff. More like Silver/adamantine ammo, alchemical items, etc. Regardless, my point is that the DM is not expected to keep track of how much the PC's have 'wasted' (i.e. used up, permanently gone wealth). Keep track of how much you've given out? Sure (and it should be more than the wealth table indicates). Keep track off how much stuff they currently have? Maybe (or at least an approximation). But keeping track of what PC's consume? Not an expectation for DM's (and often unfeasible). Now, a DM might start adjusting loot if the PC's have too much (or too little) gear, but if players know you will do this, they have less incentive to be frugal with what they have. I figure it all comes out in the wash and any disparities are often self-correcting problem. I like to stay impartial and stick to the loot generation tables or published adventures. If the PC's don't have enough gear, they can start crafting magic items, looting their dead or hunting treasure-rich opponents (like dragons). If they have too much gear, I might suggest some XP-rich encounters to bring up their level... or maybe invest in a ship or castle.
Red_Wizard 02-14-08, 06:44 PM	Merestil Haye: It isn't hard if you do it once a level. You may have found it hard, but as I have done it for a number of years, I think I know what is and isn't difficult to accomplish. Those potions you used in September should have been calculated as they happened, not in March as you said "10 levels later". Of course in that situation it will prove nigh impossible to manage. Good planning is the key. mvincent: The DM is only part of the picture though. That is why I said the DM covers party wealth, and the players are left to, honestly, keep track of themselves. Then, when the DM asks for an update, it shouldn't take overly long to get a final figure. I suppose it's really a trust case, in which the idea won't work unless the players are willing to back the DM. As for items passing through their hands, those are calculated at resale value, not new. If one PC uses an item for an extended period of time, then considering it lost wealth is acceptable. As for single use items, they are meant to bolster ones arsenal, and be there in the off chance an emergency arrives. If the players know they have an unlimited supply of single use items, what is to stop them from blowing them left and right knowing they'll get more? Or saving them up, and selling them in bulk? Or simply killing them all at the end of the level so that they get more gold out of it? I think the folly lies in the logic that they shouldn't count. That is a path that will ultimately lead to over powered PC's. -RW
Merestil Haye 02-14-08, 08:09 PM	I think the folly lies in the logic that they shouldn't count. That is a path that will ultimately lead to over powered PC's.If the designers wrote the WBL tables on the basis that consumable items counted towards the limit, the WBL guidelines would be higher. The low levels of the table would be :2nd : 1,000 3rd : 3,000 4th : 6,000 5th : 10,000This is simply calculated from the average treasure by encounter level table and the knowledge that it takes a 4-character party of a given ECL 131/3 encounters of that EL to go up a level (on average). The balance is assumed to be consumable items. I'd like to point out that you seem to have missed my method of keeping track of consumables, which was Write It Down. It's not a matter of planning and organisation. It's that D&D is a game of adventure and puzzle-solving with some social interaction thrown in for variety. It is not a game of bookkeeping. That's what you want to make it, but it's not how it was designed. In 1e you had to keep track of spell components. You really did need to keep track of eyelashes, bits of fleece and live spiders. What was the point? It added nothing to the game. In thiis edition, the spell component pouch was introduced to eliminate that bit of tedious bookkeping. Why do you suppose that the designers would create a mechanism that encourages people to argue about whether the rogue owes the cleric for the three charges from the wand of Cure Light Wounds that the cleric used on the rogue after the fight the previous week? (And don't tell me that will not happen, because it will. Why should the cleric have to foot the cost of healing the party out of his own pocket? It means he'll get weaker and weaker compared to them.) But now you've started down the road of turning every single action by a PC into an economic transaction between that character and the rest of the party. And that will destroy gaming groups. Oh, another thing. If you track consumables, what about destroyed items? A 19th level character has his +8 sword sundered. Is he still expected to carry the cost of the sword in his wealth allotment? If not, why not? If he is, how do you compensate for the loss of gear?
mplindustries 02-15-08, 04:05 AM	Are you kidding me? What is everyone even arguing about? Is this Dungeons and Dragons or Cubicles and Accountants? When you make a new character, you use the wealth by level table. You don't reduce it by any amount. That was the original issue. Now, all this stuff about good DMs keep track of everything stuff... No, good DMs tell a good story, and hopefully provide challenges that the players can handle and have fun doing so. I hardly think that requires extensive book keeping or wealth tracking. I mean, seriously? Someone makes people count their wealth every level? "Alright guys, you have the XP to level up. Make sure you file all your deductions, first." If a character's stuff is the bulk of what makes someone awesome, I think there's something wrong. PS - I'm well aware that gear was built into the system as a major balancing factor. However, just because it was made that way doesn't make it right or good. Honestly, its not that hard to adjust challenges for low to no magical gear parties. I've done it since I started running (A)D&D.
Red_Wizard 02-15-08, 09:07 AM	As it appears that the majority here are in no way interested in that aspect of the game, I will readily admit I am not here to persuade you to do otherwise. I answered the question, and did so from the stand point of a person who plays as the rules suggest, and have had it work flawlessly over 4 groups and almost 12 years. But hey, if it is that complicated, apparently I, and those around me have achieved such a state of DnD zen, that even the impossible becomes pathetically easy. *Shrugs* Let me just go and cross out all the passages that suggest how to divide up starting gold amongst Permanent and consumable items though. I would hate for the rules to back what I do. :rolleyes: -RW P.S. I Hope someday I get to play with one of you. I think the idea of Infinite wands of Fireball is a great game balancing one. That'll leave a lot of gold free to buy the permanent items like everyone else.
Mystical-Unibrow 02-15-08, 11:01 AM	Personally, I see absolutely no problem with keeping track of expendables. By most basic logic, saying that a character has X gold by level 1 and Y gold bv level 2, is equivalent to saying a character gains (Y-X) gold going from level 1 to level 2. Instead of keeping track what they have at any given moment, what they have expended or not, simply keep track of how much wealth have you given them. It is up to them to decide how much to spend and on what, and when to spend expendables and costly material components. You keep track how much wealth they have, they keep track in what form they have it. Compared to other rules of DnD that's hardly even a math problem. The problem you (Marestil Haye) percieve there is paradoxal, as you are arguing about keeping track of expendables from the point of your system, which does not keep track of expendables. On to another issue. Broken or lost equipment is by no means the same as expendables. Expendables are acquired intentionally, with a purpose to be used for some temporary gain. They are a short-lived tool. Buying them means that you are fully aware and willing to pay their cost for their effect. Broken or lost equipment was not willingly bought with the purpose of being broken. @mplindustries: I fail to see how keeping track of wealth is any different and more difficult than tracking XP. It goes by the same, quite basic, rule. Even if you give freeform XP as well as freeform wealth, you should agree that the above is the same. I share your oppinion of expendables, I've never used them as a player, ecept for an occasional potion of Cure. Hovever, the party will invariably end up with an amount of expendables. But you are completely right, even 15% seems too high. According to what you say, starting wealth is starting wealth, EOD, not to be reduced. I'm fully willing to accept that and stop unfairly penalyzing new characters. Expendables are not very popular in my group, and even if they find some in loot, well... I'm not going to complicate it for them anymore. I've never delved that deep inot the math of wealth, I've never compared the starting wealth table with the average output of random treasure tables, but once again, according to what you say this should be a higher ammount than the starting wealth, yes? So instead of lowering starting wealth by 15%, I'll bump up expected character wealth by some 15%, as a rule of thumb. Does that sound any better? I can not, though, give up on my opinion that expendables should be counted. Sorry, I'm just a kind of person that likes to rely on rules rather than improvisation. I certainly don't obsess with such numbers, but I do like to have a some sort of guideline written down. Regardless of our agreements or disagreements, I'd liek to thank all for your opinions and advice.
anonicon 02-16-08, 10:07 AM	FWIW, I've been working on a heavy variant system of D&D called Bloody20 (spelled Blood20) and used this 5-point system concerning the whole item creation and wealth by level issues. 1. All magic and magic gear is blood-attuned and cannot be permanently depleted. 1-time items like scrolls and potions do not exist. Command-word items like a Ring of Invisibility do exist, but staffs, wands, and rods must be for uses/day like the Eternal Wands in the Magic Item Compendium, or "always on" like the Warlock's rod of ranged touch attacks. Voila, no need to worry about consumables, but still mostly follow the prices listed in the books. FYI, a Wizard's Scribe Scroll feat at level 1 is changed to any metamagic feat of spell-level adjustment +0. 2. Normally, a 20th level PC should have equipment worth around 760,000gp according to the wealth by level table, and be richer than some barons. Bah! I took the variant Craft Points system from UA and changed it. A character begins with Craft Points = to expected wealth by level, e.g., a 6th level PC will have around 13,000 blood-charged craft points to make equipment. In the "real" world, the L6 PC may have less than 50gp to his name and be homeless (Rambo), or 5-6,000gp and own an estate near the city square (Croft). Big roleplaying difference, but no combat difference since neither GP nor XP are used for magic item creation. 3. Magic gear is completely blood-attuned. Only the person whose blood was attuned to the item at creation time can use the item to its full capability. If the PCs try to use a level 20 ranger's +5 Splitting Bow of Death with a +5 STR pull-bonus, it becomes a masterwork bow in their hands. They of course can sell it off, but they'll get full price for selling it as a masterwork bow of STR-pull +5, or about 900gp, usable towards their real-world wealth. Loot helps the PCs, but doesn't help them combat-wise. 4. Item creation feats are out. Any PC who meets the Character Level instead of Caster Level requirement for a magic item and has Character level +3 ranks in the skill Craft: Magic Arms and Armor, or Craft: Wondrous Item can create their item as long as they have sufficient craft points to "buy" the item. All they need is an un-attuned magical forge like the ones in Races of Stone p167 (but each forge is about 50% off those listed prices) and 1 8-hour day per 1,000 Craft Points (No XP component) to be spent on the item. Alternately, if a PC wants a magic item created for himself by someone else, fine. It's the Craft Points tied to the PC's blood which fuel the item's magic; the guildsmith creating the item simply charges a 5% value tax in GP for her time and expertise. Above-masterwork item creation still requires skill and PC commitment, but is not solely the burden of spellcasters. 5. Mundane item creation is worthwhile. In regular 3.5, creating 1 masterwork adamantine greatsword worth 3,050gp takes about 6-12 months. Bah! In my system, mundane craft checks are total craft check x base or voluntary DC x GP, not SP. So, a PC/NPC crafter with a Take 10 craft check of 20 x a voluntary DC of 20 can create 400GP, not SP, of stuff a week. That adamantine greatsword will take about 8 weeks to make at 8 hours/day, or 4 days with a magical forge at 1,000GP/8 hour day. Using this system cleans up a lot of issues: * Gear Wealth, PC Wealth. PC wealth is completely separated from their "gear wealth." Pcs have to abide by the same character wealth system as commoners or aristocracy. Suddenly, finding 15,000GP in a dragon lair at level 10 is a big deal since your PC is that much further from poverty, or for that matter, finding a downtime day job with a guild is worthwhile depending on your PC's fields of expertise. * Sundering. Sundering the BBEG's weapon or staff is no longer destroying a magic item your PC could use since your PC couldn't use it anyways due to attunement. * Powerful magic becomes mundane. Looting bodies is fine, but with blood-attunement, the DM's BBEG's Vorpal Shortsword is only a masterwork shortsword after his death. Making NPCs with powerful weapons just became a lot easier for the DM. * Auto equipment-wealth. DMs don't have to worry about giving their PCs too much wealth or not enough - a PC's "gear wealth" automagically adjusts to the level of the PC as their level-based Craft Points pay for gear, and everything else is for the PC out of combat. * No MageMarts. Every single magic item has to be prepared specifically for the PC. MageMarts are either the crafter making the item, or a broker who finds the crafter that the PC needs for item X or item quality Y. This also means that even a +5 magic sword can be created in a village (not just a metropolis) since magic items are custom created, not off-the-rack. * No random loot rolling for items the PCs may not use anyways since anything over masterwork qualities doesn't work for the PCs due to attunement, and they must choose what to spend their finite Craft Points on. * No 50% discount or XP drain for magic self-crafting. Creating a magic item no longer takes GP or XP, and it always costs full retail price in Craft Points except for non-magicals, which cost 1/3 price in materials per the SRD and can only be bought with GP/SP. NPC magic crafters and guilds make their money by charging a value tax of 5% or so for the magic item. I hope something within this variant idea might work for your own campaign.
mod5000 02-17-08, 01:29 AM	anonicon... Brilliant. Just brilliant. I completely bow to your greatness. Definitely stealing this for my campaign. Wish I had it before, but *definitely* making use of this now. CWBL has always been a problem for me, and this way it clears out all problems. And I can still hand out magic items that characters wouldn't normally buy (Pendant of Joy from MIC, for example) by making them unattuned, and this variant actually makes the cost of ressurection spells matter to characters. And a few Eternal Wands of Lesser Vigor or Healing Belts make it so healing isn't any more of a problem than before. Just... wow. Words fail me.
Scion of Coldshard 02-17-08, 02:20 AM	Through whatever methods the group deems prudent if the wealth by level guidelines are going to be followed then at the level the characters are at they should have about the right amount of useful gear money wise, regardless of other factors. If the guidelines are not going to be followed then some adjustment of challenges, or at least the rewards for those challenges, will likely need to occur. Any of the play-methods can work, so long as everyone is on the same page and the limitations of each are understood. As an extreme example, a level 20 character with 1,000,000 gp worth of art and no other equipment is rather unlikely to be anywhere near the powerlevel of the same build with 200,000 gp of useful gear. Treating the same in game is likely to cause... problems.
StevenO 02-17-08, 03:33 PM	Although I'm sure the answer to what I believe the problem is has already been answered I think this may be the Simple Answer. The Character Wealth by Level Table is just a snapshot of what the character should have RIGHT NOW. Treasure gain is determined by what is encountered and should have an average based on EL. Characters should gain more net treasure between levels than the difference on the CW/L table would indicate by some or even much of it may be expendable in nature and not be around the next time a character "takes inventory."
Mystical-Unibrow 02-18-08, 04:25 AM	anonicon, your work is very close to what I have been developing for my custom setting, particularily blood-attunement (I called it imbuement) and crafting time (which I'm not sure but may be identical to my what I came up with). There was one issue I couldn't solve, and I noticed you didn't as well, or you chose to neglect it. If attuned items cannot be traded, then characters can never get items that cover their shortcomings and flaws, only ones that build on their already existing strengths. A simplest example - a thief with 20 ranks in Hide and 0 in Open Locks will never be able to get an item to help him overcome his weakness in lockpicking, he'll only be able to produce needless items of Hiding. This is my greatest issue with this system. Anyways, great stuff there. Could you possibly e-mail me if you have anything more detailed, as it's quite more advanced than what I've done so far? My email is mnikolac@email.si
mod5000 02-18-08, 05:03 AM	A simplest example - a thief with 20 ranks in Hide and 0 in Open Locks will never be able to get an item to help him overcome his weakness in lockpicking, he'll only be able to produce needless items of Hiding. This is my greatest issue with this system. Couldn't this easily be replaced by an Eternal Wand of Knock (or more if you expect to face more than 2 locks per day) and UMD? Not sure where the problem is... even in a "traditional" system, a rogue with no ranks in Open Lock would be unable to open locks, even with access to a +30 skill item.
anonicon 02-18-08, 12:31 PM	There was one issue I couldn't solve, and I noticed you didn't as well, or you chose to neglect it. If attuned items cannot be traded, then characters can never get items that cover their shortcomings and flaws, only ones that build on their already existing strengths. A simplest example - a thief with 20 ranks in Hide and 0 in Open Locks will never be able to get an item to help him overcome his weakness in lockpicking, he'll only be able to produce needless items of Hiding. This is my greatest issue with this system. Hi Unibrow. Using your example, the thief is just fine, and has *two* choices. Choice #1 - The thief with 0 ranks in Open Lock will need to pay X,000 Craft Points for a magic item of Knock (as the spell) and he'll be able to use Knock as many times/day as the item permits (2/day for Eternal Wands in Magic Item Compendium, or maybe a Ring of Knock for 3-5/day or unlimited times/day). His 0 ranks in Open Lock do not prevent him from doing this. Choice #2 - Open Lock is a trained skill, so the thief can't use any item that grants an Open Lock +skill-bonus unless the player decides to give the thief at least 1 rank in the skill. Once he has 1 rank or more, the thief can spend his Craft Points to purchase/create, for example, Gloves of Open Lock +10 (10,000 Craft Points), or +20 (40,000 Craft Points) that he'll be able to use. Remember, Craft Points are always the player's choice, not the DM's (unless the item is severely broken, like the Retributive Amulet in Book of Exalted Deeds). Anyways, great stuff there. Could you possibly e-mail me if you have anything more detailed, as it's quite more advanced than what I've done so far? My email is mnikolac@email.si Per both you and mod5000 (BTW, thanks for the encouragement - I genuinely appreciate it), I'm completely rewriting all of 3.5 to make it more DM- and player-friendly. Crafting magic items and Character Wealth by Level were only a couple "annoyances" among *many* that I'm working on, so I have a lot of work to do and can't send you everything now. However, if you send me more questions on this thread (I monitor it for activity), I'll be glad to send you more answers. Chuck Blood20
Ace_of_time 02-19-08, 11:46 AM	Wealth by level table is the ammount of wealth a average PC should have at that level. Not the ammount of money they have gained up until then. WBL table says 900gp TPE table Page 51 DMG says 300 gp for the group per encounter. If you follow the CR =levels for encounter you should encounter 14 before leveling to 2nd. That's 300 times 14= 4200gp Divided by 4 person party = to about 1,050 So you should have gained an average of 1,050gp from 1st to 2nd level. The wealth by level table takes in to count that the PC would have spent some on some. Food, lodging, heals/potions, ect. and that you should only have 900 gps wealth of equipment on you. I play with 3 people and they have never picked up on this but they should start with more wealth then the table shows. 900gps times 4 = 3,600gp and then divide that by 3 instead of 4 and in a 3 person party each PC should start with 1,200gp. 5 person party should start with 720 each.
Axiomatic_vampire 02-19-08, 11:50 AM	4. Item creation feats are out. Any PC who meets the Character Level instead of Caster Level requirement for a magic item and has Character level +3 ranks in the skill Craft: Magic Arms and Armor, or Craft: Wondrous Item can create their item as long as they have sufficient craft points to "buy" the item. All they need is an un-attuned magical forge like the ones in Races of Stone p167 (but each forge is about 50% off those listed prices) and 1 8-hour day per 1,000 Craft Points (No XP component) to be spent on the item. Alternately, if a PC wants a magic item created for himself by someone else, fine. It's the Craft Points tied to the PC's blood which fuel the item's magic; the guildsmith creating the item simply charges a 5% value tax in GP for her time and expertise. Above-masterwork item creation still requires skill and PC commitment, but is not solely the burden of spellcasters. If I understand you properly, at 8 hours/1000 craft points, there would have to be a lot of down time between adventures. For high level characters to craft their own goods, it could be months of waiting for each item, no?
anonicon 02-19-08, 12:17 PM	If I understand you properly, at 8 hours/1000 craft points, there would have to be a lot of down time between adventures. For high level characters to craft their own goods, it could be months of waiting for each item, no? Axiomatic, there already *must* be a lot of downtime between adventures since plain old D&D 3.5 says magic items are created or improved at a rate of 1,000GP/day. My system doesn't change that (of course, it may in the future, say instead of 1,000 Craft Points/day, make it 10,000, or make it 1 day regardless of price increase. It's all arbitrary anyways). We'll see.
Axiomatic_vampire 02-19-08, 12:36 PM	No, I don't see that. Most adventurer's buy or find their gear, not craft it or have it custom crafted. Sure, it happens that an adventurer takes the time to craft one or two items, or commissions them, but you can't claim that they *MUST* have that downtime. Far from being must, I've never seen an instance of it.
mvincent 02-19-08, 12:55 PM	Most adventurer's buy or find their gear, not craft it or have it custom crafted.That is generally not the case at higher levels. The more expensive the item, the lower the chance that a population center will have it. Also, higher level PC's will typically opt to have their current item upgraded (rather than selling it for 1/2 price and buying an entirely new one... which can severly lower their wealth levels). Plus, found items are less likely to fit their needs at higher levels. Lastly, higher level PC's may have learned the value of making their own stuff (and generally have more capability to do so).
Wheldrake 02-19-08, 01:08 PM	Treasure is so hard to measure. Some players will spend the whole wad on healing potions, and then chug them continually after each encounter. Sometimes PCs will die, and the rest of the PCs will pool their money to get them rezzed. Remember the minimum material cost of a raise dead spell is 5000 gold pieces in diamonds! In our campaign, we were all paupers again after rezzing two characters - one of whom promtly got himself captured by the city watch and sentenced to death, a whole day after returning from the dead. Go figure! So there really is no simple answer to the wealth problem. Just go with the flow, and try not to give out *too* much. Cheers, --- Wheldrake
Ace_of_time 02-19-08, 03:37 PM	All I can say is 750gp is what I save for. Healling belt. Potions are a waste most of the time. I carry two just in case potions but more then thatand your crazy. After that I save for the amulet of retro healing and I'm set. You can also get more then one belt with the DM ok.
Axiomatic_vampire 02-20-08, 01:35 AM	That is generally not the case at higher levels. The more expensive the item, the lower the chance that a population center will have it. Also, higher level PC's will typically opt to have their current item upgraded (rather than selling it for 1/2 price and buying an entirely new one... which can severly lower their wealth levels). Plus, found items are less likely to fit their needs at higher levels. Lastly, higher level PC's may have learned the value of making their own stuff (and generally have more capability to do so). Stupid blanket statement on my part. I should have said "most of the games I've played in." I guess my concern is just that a lot of plots don't leave room for the downtime necessary to craft. I wouldn't be going on about this if I didn't feel some love for the idea.
McPoyo 02-20-08, 09:33 AM	Since it appears people missed Ace's reply (#25 (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15130503&postcount=25), I figured I'd point it out here again. The Wealth by Level tables are what new characters are expected to come in with. If your party follows the %'s for magic item distribution that the designers had in mind when they built the system (I don't fully remember, but I believe it was 10% of the wealth was in disposable items, I might be wrong though) then it should match up pretty close to the WBL tables. The Wealth by Encounter tables are the guidelines you should be looking at if you are trying to keep a Party-Power-Level/CR balance pretty close with the game, since they are the tables used to ascertain the "Average" wealth a PC gains per level. That said, however, I don't follow either all that well. Sometimes my groups are below wealth (less than 50% in some cases, depending on party makeup), and sometimes they are almost twice over the WBL table. I've never had it effect the party's power level though, since most of that overwealth would be in situational crap they really couldn't pawn off if they wanted to due to the item's cost, and the available disposable wealth in the backwater towns they were near. The PCs could always have 3 times their assumed WBL, but if its all in situational stuff that hardly ever applies to anything they are involved in, it really doesn't help them at all, and really falsely shifts the assumed power level vs real power level against them then. If you notice your party is slaughtering encounters due to items (not abilities, but items), then scale back the loot handouts for a couple levels. The inverse works well, too. Once you do it a couple times, you figure out how to work it one way or the other so it's not apparent what you are doing, and the players never notice. So in the end, it comes out to good DMing keeping a balance.
Mystical-Unibrow 02-20-08, 12:57 PM	Well, my issue wasn't so much as to how much wealth should the party have. Actually that was merely a derivative of the real problem - whether the expendables are accounted for or are "free". I feel that the wealth table representing what you have right here, right now and what you start with at certain level is essentially the same, and result of expendables. You will always have slightly less than the sum of your gains, due to the expendables you spent up (and other losses, like lodging and food). And surely new characters would be created in line with this, in line with the wealth of existing characters, so they would also have slightly less than "full" wealth? I am ready to increase the party wealth over the line if I see they require a small boost in equipment (I only take the table as a guideline). If they spend money on scrolls which then turn out useless or unnecessary, for example if they got wrong information or panicked over nothing, I might feel pity and "recompensate" it a bit - I don't follow the table to a word. But I don't think I should repay their every one of their expendables. @anonicon: Sorry that was my mistake, I completely misread your original post. I was feeling a bit ill that day. Yes, there is no issue whatsoever as what I posted. I just misread that you required ranks in certain skills to make an item related to that skill. So, just to confirm - you don't require even spells to craft items? I might have to go that way, since I recently switched my setting to no spellcasters except NPCs (kinda like LotR, if I didn't despise LotR). Btw, here was my rule about crafting, just in case you might find some interesting bit to use. 1. Find the item's price in the rulebooks, or have DM set one. 2. Put the price in silver pieces (1gp = 10sp) and double the result. 3. Set your craft DC. 4. Pay 1/3 of item's base price for the cost of raw materials. 5. Make an appropriate check representing one day's worth of work. If crafting a masterwork item or a custom-crafted item, add the masterwork or the custom crafting price to item's price in steps 1. (crafting progress) and 4. (raw material cost). This reflects paying for higher quality material used in quality crafting, and prolonged, thorough work. If using a special material, you must first purchase the required amount of that material. Pay this price separately. When crafting, add the special material price modifier to item's price in step 1. (crafting progress) only. Do not add special material price to item's price in step 4. (raw material cost). This reflects extra time and effort required to craft items from unusual and difficult materials. The special materials have both market price (per lb) and crafting price modifier. This reflects that some items use less special material to the same effect as others, and some use much more material to a lesser effect. Primarily this reflects armor and weapon cost comparison. Also, it reflects that there are some expensive easy-to-use materials and some cheap almost-unworkable ones. To craft using a special material you must meet it's prerequirements n the form of ranks in Craft skill. You can craft art items, using corresponding skills (calligraphy, gemcutting, jewelrymaking, painting, pottery, sculpting, etc.). Follow the crafting rules as stated above, except as step 1. you must set your own price. Use this price again at step 4. (raw materials). So, you do GP/week, while I do 2xSP/day. I found it a bit easier to track progress by day than by week. And I separated raw materials market price from their "crafting price" value that determines crafting time. Hey, don't sweat about the mailing thing. I meant only the crafting part, not the whole thing, but it's no problem. Keep up the great work, and I hope we'll be able to see the whole system soon.
anonicon 02-20-08, 02:58 PM	So, just to confirm - you don't require even spells to craft items? I might have to go that way, since I recently switched my setting to no spellcasters except NPCs (kinda like LotR, if I didn't despise LotR). Correct to no spells, just the Generic Magic Forge as represented by some of the forges in Races of Stone p167. Making spellcasters the only ones who can craft magic armor never really made sense to me. So, you do GP/week, while I do 2xSP/day. I found it a bit easier to track progress by day than by week. And I separated raw materials market price from their "crafting price" value that determines crafting time. I kept mine to GP/week because I want my Blood20 rules to mesh within 3.5 as closely as possible with little to no conversion needed by the DM. Conversions = The Suck. Comparing examples, my Take 10 guy with a Craft check of 20 x DC 20 makes 400gp/week. Your Take 10 guy does 20 x 20 x 2 = 800sp/day, or 4000sp/400gp per 5 day week, or 5600sp/560gp for 7 day weeks. About the same. :-) Hey, don't sweat about the mailing thing. I meant only the crafting part, not the whole thing, but it's no problem. Keep up the great work, and I hope we'll be able to see the whole system soon. It will be a couple months before I'm ready since I'm literally taking each part of D&D and examining it, then converting it to a more userfriendly system. Once done, I'll have side-by-sides that show how things work in Regular 3.5, and Blood20 3.5. as for crafting, you've seen it all unless I (unlikely) decide to change something in the future.