Charge and Tripping [Archive] - Wizards Community

Charge and Tripping [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tichondrus
03-04-07, 06:32 AM A huge arguement with my Dm was about this.
According to him, a character can draw his weapon, charge and trip an enemy in the same round, withow any feats to favor it.
According to me, a character can draw the weapon and trip the enemy.
The character can Charge at the enemy.
But charge + another action = imposible.... maybe under a haste spell, but only in that way.

He also says assured that "standing up from a trip is like moving in the threatened area and causes an atack of oportunity"
While I say "Meh, I'll take it today cuz you are the DM, but I'll ask in the forums."

So, forumtastical people, what do you say?
ArchonJohn
03-04-07, 06:42 AM The PHB says that charging is a full round action moving twice your speed... blah blah... that ends in an attack action.

A trip attempt is an attack action. Straight by the rules, yes. Yes you can.

Will I allow it? No.

Why? Because of the full round action part - trip attacks are special attacks in place of a normal attack, if you're charging in my games, you better end it in an attack. They have rules for charing and 'tripping', it's called Overrun, and it makes sense the way it's written. Trip attacks rely on your character being stable and with tactical skill, when moving fast you would have none of those, and would have to bowl over opponents to trip them.

As for standing up, by the base book it provokes. This rule makes sense.

All in all, it's really up to the DM. But feel free to use his ruling to your advantage, if the baddies can do it, you can too!
Tichondrus
03-04-07, 06:47 AM jajaja
Thanks jhon, you think a lot like me >.<
And yes, he's fed up of my "sure, I'll do the same"
he did this time saying "Not like you can turn this on me, you are a mage"

Simple enough answer:
Summon monster =D

another question, his idea is to do it with a weapon
basically, he tripped me with a double handed orc axe
is that even posible?
gimby
03-04-07, 06:48 AM The relevant rules seem to be:

You can draw a weapon as part of a normal move actiom, as long as you have a BAB of +1 or more.

When charging, you move up to twice your movement rate and make a melee attack.

A trip attack is an attack action which provokes an attack of opportunity.

Now strictly, a charge is not a regular move, so the first rule would not apply. You could however make a normal move and attack (and hence trip). Personally, I allow drawing a weapon on a charge (but that is a house rule).

So what your DM did was almost correct, assuming you got an attack of opportunity (which you could use to trip him before he gets his attempt :))

Standing up from prone does provoke an attack of opportunity, but the character trying to stand up is considered prone when the attack is made, so the AOO cannot be used to trip the poor guy again.

Couple of notes:

Under 3.5 being under a Haste spell makes no difference to how many actions you get in a round, so would make no difference in this case.

The AOO provoked by the trip attempt can be avoided by having the Improved Trip feat.
Tichondrus
03-04-07, 06:53 AM Ok =D
Thanks.
So resuming:
You can charge, and, if we play with zero realism, you can trip.
You can only trip disarmed.
Standing up gives an AOO.
I won that fight either way, but now I also won the arguement.
Loveyaguys =D
gimby
03-04-07, 06:54 AM Will I allow it? No.

Why? Because of the full round action part - trip attacks are special attacks in place of a normal attack, if you're charging in my games, you better end it in an attack. They have rules for charing and 'tripping', it's called Overrun, and it makes sense the way it's written. Trip attacks rely on your character being stable and with tactical skill, when moving fast you would have none of those, and would have to bowl over opponents to trip them.

Would you allow it for a normal move followed by a standard action attack? How about on a Spring Attack?

OP- a double axe is not a tripping weapon, so he would have to use an unarmed touch attack to hit you. All the relevant rules can be found at:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip
gimby
03-04-07, 07:01 AM You can charge, and, if we play with zero realism, you can trip.

Not quite zero realism- Trip and Overrun are rather different beasts. Overrun allows you to move past someone you are charging and uses much the same mechanics as a trip. Attacking for a trip would not allow you to move past the target- you are more interested in knocking them over. Mechanically the difference is that on an Overrun you are not actively trying to strike the target, while on a Trip you are.

You can only trip disarmed.

You can trip just fine while armed, just that you don't get to use the weapon to aid the attempt unless it has a note specifically allowing you to do so.
ibayboy
03-04-07, 07:39 AM First of all..
Overrun
Player's Handbook, page 148
It’s not possible to overrun as part of a charge.
Delete “or as part of a charge” from this paragraph.

Now my two cents.
Did the DM give you a full description of your opponent? If he had a level in Exotic Weapon Master, he could certainly trip you with a orc double axe (without provoking an AoO).
I can't find anything to back me up at the moment but i'm sure you can do a disarm, grapple, trip, and sunder as the attack on a charge. The PHB includes bullrush so thats not an issue. The wording for the attack after a charge is exactly the same as for an AoO, which has this in the FAQ...
Can you make a trip attack (or other special attack) as
an attack of opportunity?
Yes, as long as you make the trip attack (or other special
attack) with a weapon with which you threaten the target. For
example, unless you wield a weapon that allows you to make a
trip attack, trip attacks are unarmed attacks; a character who
doesn’t threaten while unarmed couldn’t make an unarmed trip
attack as an attack of opportunity.
As for drawing a weapon during a charge, by RAW you can't. We houserule that if your charge is only a single move in length you can, but if you need to use more than that you are running too hard. But as i said a houserule.
SALDAR
03-04-07, 01:19 PM All quoted items are from the Combat sections of the SRD.

From Charge:
"Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action."
"Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack."

From the Actions Table, footnote 7, referring to Disarm, Grapple, and Trip:
"These attack forms substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity."

So you can charge and trip. The bonus to the attack for charge would be applied to your unarmed melee touch attack (or melee touch attack if using a trip weapon) but not to your opposed trip rolls.

From Draw or Sheathe a Weapon:
"If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move."

Charge is a full-round action and does not include a regular move so you cannot draw a weapon while charging. You must have the weapon out before you charge.

From Move Actions:
"Stand Up
Standing up from a prone position requires a move action and provokes attacks of opportunity."

So you do provoke an AoO when standing up. The AoO comes before you stand up so you are prone when the attack is made and cannot be knocked prone (since you already are).

So, draw and charge, no. Charge and trip, yes. AoO for standing, yes.
draconic_swine
03-04-07, 01:31 PM I'm with SALDAR on this one. He posted all of the relevant rules, which backs up what your DM says (minus the drawing a weapon on a charge).
EvilVegan
03-04-07, 01:31 PM Also as a side note, tripping is an unarmed melee attack, so drawing his double-ax would actually not help at all (unless he's got levels of exotic weapon master, or a tripping weapon).
Kradlo
03-04-07, 03:26 PM Saldar has it right.

Do note that you can make a trip attack with a weapon without provoking an AoO if that weapon has the trip quality. If it doesn't have the quality, you can't trip with it (exception noted: Exotic Weapon Master's Trip Attack ability).

If you trip unarmed, you provoke an AoO for the trip attempt (exception: Improved Trip).

Also, if your opponent is flat-footed, he can't take an AoO, so feel free to trip him.

So, drawing a weapon as part of a charge: not by RAW (unless he has Quick Draw), but often house-ruled to allow it.

Using your charge attack to trip: perfectly acceptable by the rules.

Smacking your opponent with an AoO when he tries to stand up: priceless.
ClementWillowbreaker
03-04-07, 04:55 PM Here is the problem. "Regular move (full stop)" is not defined anywhere. It doesn't exist- in fact, I can't think of any other sentence that uses it. There are move actions, and there is movement (both of which can be regular i.e. not spend drawing weapons in this case).

If you think it implies, "regular move action", then you can't draw on a charge or while running...but you can while taking something out of your backpack, making a second Listen check, standing up from prone, hiding after a snipe, opening a door, or directing a spell (all move actions in the PHB, but the list goes on).

If you think it implies, "regular movement", then you can draw your weapon while physically moving across the battlegrid, and a charge qualifies.

So which do you prefer? I go with the second, because that way, my "strict following of the RAW" doesn't require me to make a huge list of personal exceptions.
SALDAR
03-04-07, 05:04 PM Regular move as in Move listed under move actions. Charge is a special full round action so it is not a move nor is it regular. You cannot draw on a charge but you can if you use the move move action.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tichondrus 03-04-07, 06:32 AM	A huge arguement with my Dm was about this. According to him, a character can draw his weapon, charge and trip an enemy in the same round, withow any feats to favor it. According to me, a character can draw the weapon and trip the enemy. The character can Charge at the enemy. But charge + another action = imposible.... maybe under a haste spell, but only in that way. He also says assured that "standing up from a trip is like moving in the threatened area and causes an atack of oportunity" While I say "Meh, I'll take it today cuz you are the DM, but I'll ask in the forums." So, forumtastical people, what do you say?
ArchonJohn 03-04-07, 06:42 AM	The PHB says that charging is a full round action moving twice your speed... blah blah... that ends in an attack action. A trip attempt is an attack action. Straight by the rules, yes. Yes you can. Will I allow it? No. Why? Because of the full round action part - trip attacks are special attacks in place of a normal attack, if you're charging in my games, you better end it in an attack. They have rules for charing and 'tripping', it's called Overrun, and it makes sense the way it's written. Trip attacks rely on your character being stable and with tactical skill, when moving fast you would have none of those, and would have to bowl over opponents to trip them. As for standing up, by the base book it provokes. This rule makes sense. All in all, it's really up to the DM. But feel free to use his ruling to your advantage, if the baddies can do it, you can too!
Tichondrus 03-04-07, 06:47 AM	jajaja Thanks jhon, you think a lot like me >.< And yes, he's fed up of my "sure, I'll do the same" he did this time saying "Not like you can turn this on me, you are a mage" Simple enough answer: Summon monster =D another question, his idea is to do it with a weapon basically, he tripped me with a double handed orc axe is that even posible?
gimby 03-04-07, 06:48 AM	The relevant rules seem to be: You can draw a weapon as part of a normal move actiom, as long as you have a BAB of +1 or more. When charging, you move up to twice your movement rate and make a melee attack. A trip attack is an attack action which provokes an attack of opportunity. Now strictly, a charge is not a regular move, so the first rule would not apply. You could however make a normal move and attack (and hence trip). Personally, I allow drawing a weapon on a charge (but that is a house rule). So what your DM did was almost correct, assuming you got an attack of opportunity (which you could use to trip him before he gets his attempt :)) Standing up from prone does provoke an attack of opportunity, but the character trying to stand up is considered prone when the attack is made, so the AOO cannot be used to trip the poor guy again. Couple of notes: Under 3.5 being under a Haste spell makes no difference to how many actions you get in a round, so would make no difference in this case. The AOO provoked by the trip attempt can be avoided by having the Improved Trip feat.
Tichondrus 03-04-07, 06:53 AM	Ok =D Thanks. So resuming: You can charge, and, if we play with zero realism, you can trip. You can only trip disarmed. Standing up gives an AOO. I won that fight either way, but now I also won the arguement. Loveyaguys =D
gimby 03-04-07, 06:54 AM	Will I allow it? No. Why? Because of the full round action part - trip attacks are special attacks in place of a normal attack, if you're charging in my games, you better end it in an attack. They have rules for charing and 'tripping', it's called Overrun, and it makes sense the way it's written. Trip attacks rely on your character being stable and with tactical skill, when moving fast you would have none of those, and would have to bowl over opponents to trip them. Would you allow it for a normal move followed by a standard action attack? How about on a Spring Attack? OP- a double axe is not a tripping weapon, so he would have to use an unarmed touch attack to hit you. All the relevant rules can be found at: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip
gimby 03-04-07, 07:01 AM	You can charge, and, if we play with zero realism, you can trip. Not quite zero realism- Trip and Overrun are rather different beasts. Overrun allows you to move past someone you are charging and uses much the same mechanics as a trip. Attacking for a trip would not allow you to move past the target- you are more interested in knocking them over. Mechanically the difference is that on an Overrun you are not actively trying to strike the target, while on a Trip you are. You can only trip disarmed. You can trip just fine while armed, just that you don't get to use the weapon to aid the attempt unless it has a note specifically allowing you to do so.
ibayboy 03-04-07, 07:39 AM	First of all.. Overrun Player's Handbook, page 148 It’s not possible to overrun as part of a charge. Delete “or as part of a charge” from this paragraph. Now my two cents. Did the DM give you a full description of your opponent? If he had a level in Exotic Weapon Master, he could certainly trip you with a orc double axe (without provoking an AoO). I can't find anything to back me up at the moment but i'm sure you can do a disarm, grapple, trip, and sunder as the attack on a charge. The PHB includes bullrush so thats not an issue. The wording for the attack after a charge is exactly the same as for an AoO, which has this in the FAQ... Can you make a trip attack (or other special attack) as an attack of opportunity? Yes, as long as you make the trip attack (or other special attack) with a weapon with which you threaten the target. For example, unless you wield a weapon that allows you to make a trip attack, trip attacks are unarmed attacks; a character who doesn’t threaten while unarmed couldn’t make an unarmed trip attack as an attack of opportunity. As for drawing a weapon during a charge, by RAW you can't. We houserule that if your charge is only a single move in length you can, but if you need to use more than that you are running too hard. But as i said a houserule.
SALDAR 03-04-07, 01:19 PM	All quoted items are from the Combat sections of the SRD. From Charge: "Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action." "Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack." From the Actions Table, footnote 7, referring to Disarm, Grapple, and Trip: "These attack forms substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity." So you can charge and trip. The bonus to the attack for charge would be applied to your unarmed melee touch attack (or melee touch attack if using a trip weapon) but not to your opposed trip rolls. From Draw or Sheathe a Weapon: "If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move." Charge is a full-round action and does not include a regular move so you cannot draw a weapon while charging. You must have the weapon out before you charge. From Move Actions: "Stand Up Standing up from a prone position requires a move action and provokes attacks of opportunity." So you do provoke an AoO when standing up. The AoO comes before you stand up so you are prone when the attack is made and cannot be knocked prone (since you already are). So, draw and charge, no. Charge and trip, yes. AoO for standing, yes.
draconic_swine 03-04-07, 01:31 PM	I'm with SALDAR on this one. He posted all of the relevant rules, which backs up what your DM says (minus the drawing a weapon on a charge).
EvilVegan 03-04-07, 01:31 PM	Also as a side note, tripping is an unarmed melee attack, so drawing his double-ax would actually not help at all (unless he's got levels of exotic weapon master, or a tripping weapon).
Kradlo 03-04-07, 03:26 PM	Saldar has it right. Do note that you can make a trip attack with a weapon without provoking an AoO if that weapon has the trip quality. If it doesn't have the quality, you can't trip with it (exception noted: Exotic Weapon Master's Trip Attack ability). If you trip unarmed, you provoke an AoO for the trip attempt (exception: Improved Trip). Also, if your opponent is flat-footed, he can't take an AoO, so feel free to trip him. So, drawing a weapon as part of a charge: not by RAW (unless he has Quick Draw), but often house-ruled to allow it. Using your charge attack to trip: perfectly acceptable by the rules. Smacking your opponent with an AoO when he tries to stand up: priceless.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-04-07, 04:55 PM	Here is the problem. "Regular move (full stop)" is not defined anywhere. It doesn't exist- in fact, I can't think of any other sentence that uses it. There are move actions, and there is movement (both of which can be regular i.e. not spend drawing weapons in this case). If you think it implies, "regular move action", then you can't draw on a charge or while running...but you can while taking something out of your backpack, making a second Listen check, standing up from prone, hiding after a snipe, opening a door, or directing a spell (all move actions in the PHB, but the list goes on). If you think it implies, "regular movement", then you can draw your weapon while physically moving across the battlegrid, and a charge qualifies. So which do you prefer? I go with the second, because that way, my "strict following of the RAW" doesn't require me to make a huge list of personal exceptions.
SALDAR 03-04-07, 05:04 PM	Regular move as in Move listed under move actions. Charge is a special full round action so it is not a move nor is it regular. You cannot draw on a charge but you can if you use the move move action.