Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Reinhardt_Wyrd 07-12-05, 09:20 AM	I've got a silly question. If you charge than you can only strike once. On the other hand, your enemy on his turn may use all of his attacks. Am I missing something or is charging not a very good option for warriors with many attacks who should wait to be charged instead?
Darazel 07-12-05, 09:22 AM	It totally depends on the situation...
Venom of the Yuan Ti 07-12-05, 09:23 AM	If you are charging it is often the ONLY way to attack that round 1 attack at +2 and -2 AC VS No attacks.
ajmastrean 07-12-05, 09:24 AM	TACTICS! I was going to leave it at that...but, here goes Not everyone is going to charge you. One charges to gain x2 move speed AND attack. Also, you get a bonus on that one (highes BAB) attack when charging, as compared to -5 on each iterative attack. The charge is tactical...use it to get somewhere and have a good chance to hit. You take the risk that the enemy will live and smash you multiple times. Why not wait around for that Wizard to charge you and see if he comes over instead of pounding you with spells from range...or that ranger, see if he puts the bow down. Get the picture?
Reinhardt_Wyrd 07-12-05, 09:33 AM	But if we have two warriors in full plate, each with 3 attacks, isn't it better for them to wait for another to charge?
ajmastrean 07-12-05, 09:58 AM	Sure, make up all the exceptions you like to try to make some odd point about charging being useless. Do you know about the 5 ft. step? no Attack of Opportunity there...just creep toward each other. You seem to think that charging is the only method of maneuvering! And the armor they are wearing has nothing to do with anything. As for "is waiting better"...where is everyone else in the party? What are the fighter's strengths and weaknesses? who has a reach weapon? higher speed? There are too many factors that you are ignoring and your point is vague (but it seems to be "charging sucks"). I'm beginning to think that you don't know that you are getting dangerously close to trolling.
Reinhardt_Wyrd 07-12-05, 10:45 AM	Sure, make up all the exceptions you like to try to make some odd point about charging being useless. Do you know about the 5 ft. step? no Attack of Opportunity there...just creep toward each other. You seem to think that charging is the only method of maneuvering! And the armor they are wearing has nothing to do with anything. As for "is waiting better"...where is everyone else in the party? What are the fighter's strengths and weaknesses? who has a reach weapon? higher speed? There are too many factors that you are ignoring and your point is vague (but it seems to be "charging sucks"). I'm beginning to think that you don't know that you are getting dangerously close to trolling. I haven't said that charging sucks. I'm not trying to start flame war, and I haven't made any personal remarks. All I want to know is what happens when we drop two lvl 17 fighteres with melee weapons into a fighting pit. Do they stare at each other till one of them decides he does not want to starve, and charges putting himself at disadvantage? Or maybe beacuse of some elements in rules that I do not know this does not happen?
Inigo Carmine 07-12-05, 10:55 AM	Tactics. The people you're most likely to charge are ranged attacks and casters. Damaging your opponent isn't the only thing you can do on a charge either. Make a flying tackle (charge and grapple..really only works well with the imp grapple feat). Tripping or disarming them on a charge works great too (moreso if you have the improved trip/disarm feats). You don't have to start out with a charge either. Most gladiator combats I've seen (well, all of them hollywood movies, so I don't know how it really works) don't have the two combatant charge eachother at top speed as soon as the combat begins. They usually circle eachother first, measuring eachother up, and then slowly closing in for the attacks. This would be akin to using your standard action for total defense (+4 to AC, +6 if you have 5 ranks in tumbe) and then moving in. your opponent gets to attack first, but you've a much increased AC. Or you could move in and fight defensively, -4 to attacks, +2 to AC (+3 with 5 ranks in tumble). Or, you could take the most elegant option: get yourself a reach weapon and spring attack. Attack him, get out of his range, attack him, get out of his range. Make him come to you and provoke AoOs, thereby you getting twice as many attacks as he does.
Llathos 07-12-05, 10:58 AM	If your two hypothetical warriors were really that sensitive to giving up any advantage, they'd likely 5ft step towards each other like boxers in a ring...
COPUS Chief 07-12-05, 11:06 AM	Charging is a laugh and a half...my Level 2 Shifter Druid did it just last session. He charged up this path way while shifting (from Ebberon, for those who are curious. Hes a Gorebrute, and a Truedive), scaring the tar out of a Goblin gunnery crew. He got up the hill at his double movement and he sped up the hill, he finished it off by goring the Gun Emplacement and tumbling the weaponry down the pathway. Needless to say, Goblins will forever fear the Horny Fish Man :P. But yes, the matter at hand. "Charging! What is it good for?" Well lets see....Two Warriors, Full Plate, Three Attacks. But why charge in the above situation? You give the other guy four attacks in a given round. Thats 2 more than neccesary. Heck, you can get off on giving him only 1 if youre willing to 5 ft step torwards each other all day. Well, if Im remembering correctly and I may not be so dont quote me, tripping counts as an attack. One could charge up to the warrior, and be struck by an attack of oppurtunity, and then let loose with a trip attempt on the other guy. Now, assuming theyre at equal stats in the above, the Tripper should win (+2 attack; Charging) Charging seems specifically built for tying it into other maeuvers...like a Tackle[Charge+Grapple] or a Clothesline [Charge+Trip]. But Ill admit, these aren't amazing uses of Charge. You have to remember, drawing is free part of a charge, and if you have a BAB of +1 you can draw two light weapons as part of a charge, I think it is. "Oh no! Orcs! Ill hustle over there! [moves 60 ft and stands amidst the Orcs, unarmed]" "Ahuh, sure. [Charges over to the Orcs, unsheathing his +2 Keen Bastard Sword of Wounding and has himself a field day]" Look, the Charge is useful when the enemy is a threat and is a good distance away. Youre lookin to get em? Then charge, draw, attack. It will be inferior to all of your attacks, but clearly if charging is a viable option to your character, he aint all wrote up to be an archer and this is his primary option. On a related side note, there seem to be an awful lot of "this maneuver is werid" threads popping up lately...
ajmastrean 07-12-05, 11:14 AM	@Reinhardt_Wyrd I've already stated it (as have several posters now)...use 5 ft. steps, reach weapons, move action + standard action. None of these provoke AoO. Throw dirt in his eyes! take your shoe off and toss it, throw the melee weapon. Climb the wall of the pit and run away. Charging is one of a million actions you can take. These are basic maneuvers! READ THE COMBAT RULES SECTION OF THE PHB!
BW0222 07-12-05, 11:15 AM	Reinhardt_Wyrd, >Am I missing something or is charging not a very good option for warriors >with many attacks who should wait to be charged instead? You are right and wrong. It really does depend upon the situation. Ok, so you don't charge. Maybe they don't charge you first, but evard's, icestorms, or webs your group. Suddenly you get no attacks. Even facing fighters, you don't know that wasting time is necessarily a great idea. What if they quick-draw a longbow and fire three arrows at you (or the party wizard)? You get no attacks, they still get their full attacks. Maybe they start drinking potions of displacement, pull rhinos out of bags of tricks, or toss fireballs from necklaces of missiles at the group. Charging really depends upon who you are facing. Charging a troll isn't typically a smart idea. Besides reach, the multiple attacks facing you the next round isn't great. However, charging an enemy spellcaster, archer, etc. can greatly disrupt them. There are also just cases when charging is the only real option. There is an enemy spellcaster in the back and you need to charge the guards to at least be able to eventually get to him. The guards aren't going to charge you and they are happy you aren't charging them. They are their to protect the high-level wizard while he summons nasty stuff.
Finarin Panjoro 07-12-05, 11:21 AM	Just a note. Charging does not provoke an attack of opportunity unless your target has reach. Charging is a great option in a variety of circumstances: If the first round of combat begins at a distance greater than your speed then this is the only way to make a melee attack in the first round. If you're mounted using a lance you get double damage. If you have cleave/great cleave you can charge, power attack for more damage, and likely cleave into multiple enemies (meaning all attacks are at your highest BAB rather than your iterative BAB). If your opponents are faster than you they can use a move action to get out of your reach every round. Charging may be the only way to melee attack them (otherwise you have to take a double move just to reach them). I love charging personally.
Centauri 07-12-05, 11:26 AM	But yes, the matter at hand. "Charging! What is it good for?" Well lets see....Two Warriors, Full Plate, Three Attacks. But why charge in the above situation? You give the other guy four attacks in a given round. Thats 2 more than neccesary. Heck, you can get off on giving him only 1 if youre willing to 5 ft step torwards each other all day. Well, if Im remembering correctly and I may not be so dont quote me, tripping counts as an attack. One could charge up to the warrior, and be struck by an attack of oppurtunity, and then let loose with a trip attempt on the other guy. Now, assuming theyre at equal stats in the above, the Tripper should win (+2 attack; Charging) I don't know if you're assuming that the warrior being charged has a melee weapon, but charging in and of itself doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent you're attacking. A thief, excuse me rogue, that charges out of his hiding space can cross a room and sneak attack his target during the surprise round. He only gets one action on the surprise round, but you can still charge up to your movement speed and attack even if you're restricted to a single action. A warrior might also want to use a surprise round to charge in and bull rush (at +2 to the Strength check!) or make some other attack that normally provokes and attack of opportunity, neatly avoiding such attacks from his flatfooted opponents. The opponent being charged can only get his full attack in if a) he has a full attack to make (hint: charge the weaker enemies) b) he's still alive. A warrior can feel free to use up 2 points of BAB on Power Attack because he's getting a +2 to attack from the charge. Maybe that extra +2 or +4 is all he's going to need to drop his enemy - and cleave into the guy next to him. Maybe he's counting on the wizard's follow-up attack to take out the now-weakened enemy. No one is forcing you to charge when it wouldn't be in your interest, anymore than they're forcing you to use trip, disarm, or sunder. They're just handy options for special occassions.
COPUS Chief 07-12-05, 11:30 AM	Like I said, I wasnt entirely 100% positive on the AoO thing when I posted that, thanks for clearing it up.
mvincent 07-12-05, 12:31 PM	Am I missing something or is charging not a very good option for warriors with many attacks who should wait to be charged instead?I think you've made an excellent observation that many newer players don't notice. For some cases, you are entirely correct. Note though charging can still be good (even if you have multiple attacks) if: - you can kill your target in a single hit - you want remove a dangerous opponent quickly - you are facing ranged opposition - you just want to get the fight over with - etc. Readying an action to attack your opponent when he comes into range can be a much better alternative to charging. It may be hard to work right though (since the battlefield can be an unpredictable place).
Bruunwald 07-12-05, 12:37 PM	But if we have two warriors in full plate, each with 3 attacks, isn't it better for them to wait for another to charge? Not necessarily. Think on it this way, the charge allows both fighters to get across the field to their enemies, and attack once with a bonus. On the following round, they are already in place and may take their full attacks. If they merely wait on the other side of the field, they're doing nothing at all, aren't they?
kjenks 07-12-05, 01:06 PM	Charging is a terrifically good option if you have the right circumstances and feats, like Spirited Charge and Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior tactical feat). A level 6+ fighter with these feats can inflict a truly astounding amount of damage, but only if the circumstances allow a mounted lance charge. A level 6 fighter with 18 Str and a masterwork lance (used two handed) making a mounted lance Spirited Charge with Shock Trooper/Heedless Charge would be at +13 attack and 3d8+42 damage. That should put a pretty good dent in anything that a level 6 character is likely to fight. At higher levels, with more BAB to put into Power Attack, damage increases rapidly. Leap Attack makes charging on foot dramatically better, too. A good Balance skill is very helpful for enabling charges when the terrain would otherwise not allow it, and the ability to fly is very helpful, too. But charging is not for everybody. I have characters who never charge. I have other characters who charge every chance they get. It all depends.
mvincent 07-12-05, 01:23 PM	Charging is a terrifically good option if you have the right circumstances and featsFor my smiting, spirited charging, true-striking, power-blowing Paladin, the whole party's tactics were centered around setting him up for a single, devastating charge.
Cloud Clone 07-13-05, 11:46 AM	COPUS Chief has brought up the best points so far; using a charge to your advantage to trip/grapple your opponent makes alot of sense, especially as the opponent will have to use a move action to stand up afterwards, meaning he will provoke an AoO from you and then only have one attack while you will have your full attack on your turn. Or if you chose to grapple your opponent while, say, wearing armor spikes, it would then be possible to disable your opponent without taking any damage. Of course that would rely on maintaining the grapple the entire time, but it would be a funny yet incredibly effective way to battle. :evillaugh
killbot 07-13-05, 12:00 PM	Their are also some great feats in the Eberron book called powerful charge and improved powerful charge which lets you do extra d6s or d8s when they charge. If you wanna do that charging can be nasty. I love charging, make sure you tell extra loud when you do it. It is also a bit of a character thing, are you a cautious duelist, or a angry axe wielding combat monster. Different characters and different situations do different things. Two bits of advice. 1. Never charge a dude who has seen you with a spear. 2. You should always try to charge big cats or other enemies with the pounce special ability. Hope this helps.
Eihnlazer 07-15-05, 03:29 AM	I'll tell you exactly why a fighter would charge another fighter. Spring attack! We start the fight at 60 ft. away from each other. I never use heavy armor so my speed would still be 30 normal so i can charge for 60 if i have to. I would simply charge 35 ft, hurling a spear at my foe, and then continue moving forward for another 15 feet while drawing my sword. Thus on the next round I would be 10 ft. away from my opponent. Too close for him to charge, and too far for him to 5 ft. step and attack.
Ranix 07-15-05, 04:26 AM	I don't know about you, but my level 6 barbarian/fighter deals double damage on a charge and has Cleave. His AC is so abyssmal that he might as well not have one at all, so charging doesn't really have any drawbacks for him at all. Dealing 50 damage minimum, how often can your average CR6 make a dc 15 Fort save vs massive damage and live to tell the tale? I say horray for charging.
kjenks 07-15-05, 06:35 AM	I'll tell you exactly why a fighter would charge another fighter. Spring attack! You can't combine a charge (a full-round action) with a Spring Attack ("When using the attack action...").
kjenks 07-15-05, 06:40 AM	I don't know about you, but my level 6 barbarian/fighter deals double damage on a charge and has Cleave. Most characters don't inflict double damage on a charge. The only way to do that consistently is a Spirited Charge -- which is a mounted attack. It's hard to keep a mount alive for very long at high levels. Area of effect spells kill them off pretty fast. And mounts don't fit into every dungeon. Using Cleave with a mounted charge is pretty difficult to line up since both targets would have to satisfy all of the conditions for charging, and those circumstances don't arise very often. Basically, because of the requirements for charging, both targets would have to be adjacent to each other or one square away from each other in a line perpendicular to your charge, and they'd have to be exactly lined up with you on the grid.
BloodGod 07-15-05, 09:37 AM	Power Lunge, Powerful Charge, Greater Powerful Charge, and others with names I can't remember. But in general, assuming you don't have those radical feats, +2 on your attack roll can really help sometimes. Sometimes you'll need to engage the big bad monster before he gets to your precious cleric, thus the double move is vital. Edit: By the way. I believe there is a feat that allows you to inflict double d on a charge, though orc or half orc is a prereq. There's also a weapon special ability that does that. -BG
Ranix 07-15-05, 12:20 PM	The second target does not have to satisfy anything to be used after charging a foe. The Cleave feat is pretty much FOR that type of thing. And it is pretty easy to do it consistantly with the Valorious weapon enhancement from Unapproachable East.
Blue Paladin 07-15-05, 05:23 PM	I'll tell you exactly why a fighter would charge another fighter. Spring attack!Um? There's quite a few things wrong with this as far as I can tell... I would simply charge 35 ft, hurling a spear at my foe, and then continue moving forward for another 15 feet while drawing my sword.- First of all, Spring Attack is used with an attack action, and thus can't be used with a charge action (which is a full-round action). - Second, it must be used with a melee weapon. ***Rules Lawyers may point out the feat says melee weapon, not weapon used in melee. A thrown melee weapon thus technically qualifies. Hammerguns may be required; apply as needed.*** - Third, the special draw-as-a-free-action must be combined with a regular Move action, not the move-granted-during-Attack-action-via-Spring-Attack. Thus on the next round I would be 10 ft. away from my opponent. Too close for him to charge, and too far for him to 5 ft. step and attack.10' is exactly the distance needed to charge; he can charge if he wants to.
Dunelord 07-16-05, 01:27 AM	I don't know about you, but my level 6 barbarian/fighter deals double damage on a charge... Ranix how is your fighter doing double damage on every charge? ...it is pretty easy to do it consistantly with the Valorious weapon enhancement from Unapproachable East. Being a Realms book it wouldn't be at all out of line for DMs of non-Realms games to disallow it. We start the fight at 60 ft. away from each other. I never use heavy armor so my speed would still be 30 normal so i can charge for 60 if i have to. Medium armor slows you down as well. BloodGod what is the name of that abilty, and is it in a non-Realms book?
BloodGod 07-16-05, 05:40 PM	Feat: Headlong Rush- Provoke attacks of opportunity from any enemy whose threatened area you enter. +2 on the attack roll. -2 AC. Double Damage. Though, that is from the Realms. I thought, though, that there is another feat much like that, except not from the Realms. Sadly, friend, I cannot find it. -BG