Charging with power attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Charging with power attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SulThraz
08-05-06, 09:18 PM The other player in our campaign is playing a mounted character, he's using a level 4 human samurai. He has ride by attack, mounted combat, spirited charge and power attack. He uses a heavy lance two-handed. When he charges he thinks he would get triple the already 1+1/2 his strength and triple his already doubled power attack damage as well as triple whatever he rolls using the lance, I've told him that because it says you deal triple the lance damage that it would only triple the D8 lance damage.

I need help with this as I can't find any FAQ or rule that says which way it goes but he's doing huge damage at level 4 such as 200+ on critical hits.
ShinAkuma2
08-05-06, 09:33 PM A Spirited Charge does double damage, or triple damage with a lance. This is exactly the same as a crit doing double (or triple, or more) damage.

It's like hitting multiple times: Weapon damage is rolled again, and modifiers are re-added.

Anything expressed as extra dice, like Sneak Attack or a Flaming enhancement, are not multiplied.

If it's really a problem, make sure you're handling it correctly. Assuming you're the DM, remember that he's only getting one attack per round. Incorporeal enemies won't really worry about that one attack. Also, you can easily foil his attacks with lots of "speed bump" enemies. Also, you can have quests that involve going indoors. It's hard to charge with furniture in the way, if he can even get his horse inside.

The only thing I question is the 200+ on crits. On a crit with a lance and a Spirited Charge, that's x5 damage (remember, multipliers only work off of the base value, not each other). That means, on a normal hit, he'd be doing 40+ damage. That's an awful lot for 4th level. With 20 Str, he should have 1d8+15 with a full PA. How is that getting to 40?
fatal error
08-05-06, 09:34 PM You do indeed get triple your total damage, not just the d8s. And if you're playing 3.5 then power attack is 2:1 for a two-handed weapon.

Yes, it is powerful. However, it requires a lot of completely open terrain (can't charge over difficult terrain), outdoors combat, and reduces him to only one attack per round (not a problem at this level, but it'll bring him down to earth later).
So, my advice is, only let some of the combats take place in areas that let him be mounted effectively, but also not too few that he regrets taking the feats.
Salla
08-05-06, 10:07 PM There's also the 'least common denominator' solution.

When you see a lance-bearing knight astride his majestic warhorse, intending to skewer you at high speeds from horseback ...

BLOW THE HORSE AWAY. :mage:
ShinAkuma2
08-06-06, 12:08 AM Ha ha, true enough. Horses aren't that tough. A guy with a polearm set to recieve a charge can take that thing out right quick. :D Remember that you can 5ft as part of a ready...
Salla
08-06-06, 12:20 AM Ha ha, true enough. Horses aren't that tough. A guy with a polearm set to recieve a charge can take that thing out right quick. :D Remember that you can 5ft as part of a ready...

I recall one game where a GM set up a charger like that ... some Black Knight or somesuch, intent to mow us down via lancing. He'd tried the trick on another group, and they simply folded under it, so he assumed it would work on us. He won initiative, plowed into our big fighter (he lived, but did *not* enjoy it). Then, my turn came around.

"Fully Augmented Mind Thrust. On the horse."
Jawdrop. :D
Bak
08-06-06, 03:20 AM The other player in our campaign is playing a mounted character, he's using a level 4 human samurai. He has ride by attack, mounted combat, spirited charge and power attack. He uses a heavy lance two-handed. When he charges he thinks he would get triple the already 1+1/2 his strength and triple his already doubled power attack damage as well as triple whatever he rolls using the lance, I've told him that because it says you deal triple the lance damage that it would only triple the D8 lance damage.

I need help with this as I can't find any FAQ or rule that says which way it goes but he's doing huge damage at level 4 such as 200+ on critical hits.
Let’s say your player’s character has 18 str, a masterwork lance, on mount.

When Spirit Charge (SC) on mount with lance, he deals (1d8+6) x3 damage, that’s (3d8 +18), most case 31 damage per hit. If he applies Power Attack (PA), yes he gets -1 tohit +2 damage due to 2-handed weapon. If he PA -2, base damage is (1d8 +10), so SC damage is (3d8 +30), most case 43. PA -4, SC damage (1d8 +14) x3 = (3d8 +42), most case 55.

Don’t forget, when he PA full and without Weapon Focus, his melee roll is only +7, or +8 if foe is Medium or smaller. It is not too high.

Finally, if he crit on full PA, he deal (5d8 +70) damage, most case 92. Two Triple only grant you a x5. You can read the details of Multiplying on PHB 3.5 Page 304.
fatal error
08-06-06, 03:25 AM I recall one game where a GM set up a charger like that ... some Black Knight or somesuch, intent to mow us down via lancing. He'd tried the trick on another group, and they simply folded under it, so he assumed it would work on us. He won initiative, plowed into our big fighter (he lived, but did *not* enjoy it). Then, my turn came around.

"Fully Augmented Mind Thrust. On the horse."
Jawdrop. :D

What does Mind Thrust do? It's not in the SRD, and if it requires an attack roll the black guard could've used mounted combat to raise his horse's AC by quite a bit.
OneWinged4ngel
08-06-06, 03:35 AM Mind Thrust is a 1st level psionic power that requires a will save, or does damage, IIRC.

In any case, pretty much everyone here has gotten it down. Horses are weaksauce. You can take them out with minimal effort. On top of that, you need conditions to be just right to charge.

I say, if you can pull off the charge, you should be getting something for your trouble.
runestar
08-06-06, 03:44 AM A centaur charger sounds like it would be fun, since it automatically qualifies for those charging feats(it is its own mount after all). :P
SageBahamut
08-06-06, 03:51 AM Yeah, mounted combat can be a real DM headache. Killing off his horse is the best way to stop him from ruining an intended really big combat.
Also remember that you can only charge in a straight line over open ground and not through other enemies unless you have that one really high-end tactical feat. So a good way for a perceptive enemy commander who knows what he's up against is to surround himself with goblins who can sow the ground with caltrops. Do you have any idea what caltrops can do to a horse? Especially if the poor fool doesn't see them coming?
Also, if he's high enough level, your big baddie can simply cast a Wall of Force. I believe they're transparent, if I'm not mistaken, or at least easily disguised with Darkness or Obscuring Mist or any other easy "you don't see this area" spell, and charging headlong into one at full speed will make anyone's day less tasty.
come to think of it, I lost a character to that once. he had wings and tried to flyby-attack a wizard who had a readied action. broke his neck. (treat as falling damage, basically)
Alric
08-06-06, 05:17 AM Have some big guy set a spear against his charge targeting the horse and using power attack.
kjenks
08-06-06, 12:14 PM A centaur charger sounds like it would be fun, since it automatically qualifies for those charging feats (it is its own mount after all). :P

That's not true.

There are many easy tactics for avoiding charge attacks. A smokestick is cheap and anybody can use it; it breaks up charge lanes nicely. Summon Monster/Speedbump works, too, especially when summoning several creatures and spreading them out along the charge paths. A scroll of Summon Speedbump II costs only 150 gp from the DMG scroll tables. (Summon I isn't worth it because the speedump only lasts one round.) Obscuring Mist scrolls work great, too.

As long as you've made no other movement in the round, you can ready an action to move out of the charge path.

Depending on your DM, you might be able to ready an action to take a 5 ft. step inside a lancer's reach and attack, hitting the lancer or his mount while avoiding a lance attack. The rider could still attack with an unarmed strike or armor spike, but that's not going to hurt nearly as much.
Kazeofwinds
08-06-06, 04:40 PM I may Be wrong here.

But arent lances treated as 1-handed when you use them mounted, the whole needing one hand to steer the horse and all?
bondious
08-06-06, 04:53 PM I may Be wrong here.

But arent lances treated as 1-handed when you use them mounted, the whole needing one hand to steer the horse and all?

When I was reading this thread I thought the same thing. From all the pictures, movies and live demonstrations that I've seen I don't believe I've EVER seen a jouster hold his lance in two hands while on horseback. USUALLY you'll see him wielding it in one hand while the other hand is holding a shield or is on the reigns, or both.

The thing is, though, that the rules say that the lance "CAN" be used in one hand, not "MUST", so those who want that extra x1.5 Str can utilize it UNDER THE RAW. In MY GAMES, though, I rule that a lance on horseback/while mounted is a "one-handed only weapon", while on foot it requires two hands. I've ALSO ruled that spears (and spear-like weapons, such as a trident) can be used one handed while mounted, though do not deal double (or triple) damage as a lance would during a charge.
miles2912
08-06-06, 06:18 PM When I was reading this thread I thought the same thing. From all the pictures, movies and live demonstrations that I've seen I don't believe I've EVER seen a jouster hold his lance in two hands while on horseback. USUALLY you'll see him wielding it in one hand while the other hand is holding a shield or is on the reigns, or both.

The thing is, though, that the rules say that the lance "CAN" be used in one hand, not "MUST", so those who want that extra x1.5 Str can utilize it UNDER THE RAW. In MY GAMES, though, I rule that a lance on horseback/while mounted is a "one-handed only weapon", while on foot it requires two hands. I've ALSO ruled that spears (and spear-like weapons, such as a trident) can be used one handed while mounted, though do not deal double (or triple) damage as a lance would during a charge.

PHB page 157. - "With a DC 5 Ride check, you can guide your mount with your knees so as to use both hands to attack or defend yourself. This is a free action."

My suggestion is just take out the horse. Tie a rope between 2 orcs and let him charge into that .. Think Ork Bolos. :)

-DM
bondious
08-06-06, 07:03 PM PHB page 157. - "With a DC 5 Ride check, you can guide your mount with your knees so as to use both hands to attack or defend yourself. This is a free action."

Yeah, I know the rules. And I know it's D&D, a GAME, and all that jazz as well. I just so happen to hold to the image of a knight on horseback, with a lance in one hand and a shield in the other, charging in to break up the enemy's lines. Just my view of things.

My suggestion is just take out the horse. Tie a rope between 2 orcs and let him charge into that .. Think Ork Bolos. :)

The thing is, though, that I'm a DM myself and I feel that whole "just take out the horse" thing is just a bad way to "deal" with the situation. The player took those feats for a reason, and if I (or any DM) goes around and just kills his horse off every time he gets one then he'll PROBABLY be a bit disgruntled about the whole thing. I play with friends, people who I like and DON'T want to say "Well if you don't like it then you don't have to play", so I tend towards a balance of player freedom and DM control...hence the "Lance only one-handed when mounted" houserule. I figure that they're gonna get double (or triple on a critical hit) damage with the lance charge anyhow, and more if they have Spirited Charge, so there's really no NEED to add that 0.5 extra Strength damage. It's basically a compromise, and it helps keep down the Min/Max tendencies in my group.
ShinAkuma2
08-06-06, 07:10 PM You can weild the lance one-handed if you want to do so, in order to hold a shield, or another weapon, or whatever.

There's nothing forcing you to keep your off-hand free, however.
Kimokeo
08-07-06, 11:19 AM If the rider is smart and has taken the necessary precautions:

Go ahead and attack the mount.

With barding and a ride check that could make a better AC for the mount (Combat Riding), attacking the horse could be lost cause.
bitnine
08-07-06, 11:39 AM Try setting up your combat maps with a bit more detail. Include things like undergrowth, trees, and all the like. Even outdoors, in areas short of flat plainsland, there should be plenty of things here and there that block lines of charge.

(And, of course, there's always the readied action to move away after the charger gets halfway to you.)
Tony Vargas
08-07-06, 01:10 PM Yes, bonus damage from STR or power attack is multiplied.

If you want to rein in (pi) the charge abuse in a little, though, you can invoke the D&D multiplier rules. You have to rule, of course, that the 2:1 power attack ratio /is/ a multiplier in the first place (expect spirited arguments against this from any rules lawyer - be willing to 'concede' that you're making a 'house rule' and move on), and you're layering on complexity in an area that's usually kept simple - also, to be consistent, you'll have to aply this every time anyone crits with a two-hander....

Anyway, under this interpretation damage would be multiplied as follows:

Spirited Lance Charge (lance held two handed)

STR damage: x1.5 x2 x2 = x3.5 (instead of x4.5)

Power Attack damage: x2 x2 x2 = x4 (instead of x6)

Lance damage: x2 x2 = x3

On a crit, it's anoter x3, so 2 more: x5.5, x6, & x5.

Though this is certainly consistent with D&D rules on stacking multipliers, it's also a bit of a pain to calculate, and combat's usually slow enough as it is. To be fair, this multiplier-stacking would also come up any time someone critted while using a two-handed weapon.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SulThraz 08-05-06, 09:18 PM	The other player in our campaign is playing a mounted character, he's using a level 4 human samurai. He has ride by attack, mounted combat, spirited charge and power attack. He uses a heavy lance two-handed. When he charges he thinks he would get triple the already 1+1/2 his strength and triple his already doubled power attack damage as well as triple whatever he rolls using the lance, I've told him that because it says you deal triple the lance damage that it would only triple the D8 lance damage. I need help with this as I can't find any FAQ or rule that says which way it goes but he's doing huge damage at level 4 such as 200+ on critical hits.
ShinAkuma2 08-05-06, 09:33 PM	A Spirited Charge does double damage, or triple damage with a lance. This is exactly the same as a crit doing double (or triple, or more) damage. It's like hitting multiple times: Weapon damage is rolled again, and modifiers are re-added. Anything expressed as extra dice, like Sneak Attack or a Flaming enhancement, are not multiplied. If it's really a problem, make sure you're handling it correctly. Assuming you're the DM, remember that he's only getting one attack per round. Incorporeal enemies won't really worry about that one attack. Also, you can easily foil his attacks with lots of "speed bump" enemies. Also, you can have quests that involve going indoors. It's hard to charge with furniture in the way, if he can even get his horse inside. The only thing I question is the 200+ on crits. On a crit with a lance and a Spirited Charge, that's x5 damage (remember, multipliers only work off of the base value, not each other). That means, on a normal hit, he'd be doing 40+ damage. That's an awful lot for 4th level. With 20 Str, he should have 1d8+15 with a full PA. How is that getting to 40?
fatal error 08-05-06, 09:34 PM	You do indeed get triple your total damage, not just the d8s. And if you're playing 3.5 then power attack is 2:1 for a two-handed weapon. Yes, it is powerful. However, it requires a lot of completely open terrain (can't charge over difficult terrain), outdoors combat, and reduces him to only one attack per round (not a problem at this level, but it'll bring him down to earth later). So, my advice is, only let some of the combats take place in areas that let him be mounted effectively, but also not too few that he regrets taking the feats.
Salla 08-05-06, 10:07 PM	There's also the 'least common denominator' solution. When you see a lance-bearing knight astride his majestic warhorse, intending to skewer you at high speeds from horseback ... BLOW THE HORSE AWAY. :mage:
ShinAkuma2 08-06-06, 12:08 AM	Ha ha, true enough. Horses aren't that tough. A guy with a polearm set to recieve a charge can take that thing out right quick. :D Remember that you can 5ft as part of a ready...
Salla 08-06-06, 12:20 AM	Ha ha, true enough. Horses aren't that tough. A guy with a polearm set to recieve a charge can take that thing out right quick. :D Remember that you can 5ft as part of a ready... I recall one game where a GM set up a charger like that ... some Black Knight or somesuch, intent to mow us down via lancing. He'd tried the trick on another group, and they simply folded under it, so he assumed it would work on us. He won initiative, plowed into our big fighter (he lived, but did not enjoy it). Then, my turn came around. "Fully Augmented Mind Thrust. On the horse." Jawdrop. :D
Bak 08-06-06, 03:20 AM	The other player in our campaign is playing a mounted character, he's using a level 4 human samurai. He has ride by attack, mounted combat, spirited charge and power attack. He uses a heavy lance two-handed. When he charges he thinks he would get triple the already 1+1/2 his strength and triple his already doubled power attack damage as well as triple whatever he rolls using the lance, I've told him that because it says you deal triple the lance damage that it would only triple the D8 lance damage. I need help with this as I can't find any FAQ or rule that says which way it goes but he's doing huge damage at level 4 such as 200+ on critical hits. Let’s say your player’s character has 18 str, a masterwork lance, on mount. When Spirit Charge (SC) on mount with lance, he deals (1d8+6) x3 damage, that’s (3d8 +18), most case 31 damage per hit. If he applies Power Attack (PA), yes he gets -1 tohit +2 damage due to 2-handed weapon. If he PA -2, base damage is (1d8 +10), so SC damage is (3d8 +30), most case 43. PA -4, SC damage (1d8 +14) x3 = (3d8 +42), most case 55. Don’t forget, when he PA full and without Weapon Focus, his melee roll is only +7, or +8 if foe is Medium or smaller. It is not too high. Finally, if he crit on full PA, he deal (5d8 +70) damage, most case 92. Two Triple only grant you a x5. You can read the details of Multiplying on PHB 3.5 Page 304.
fatal error 08-06-06, 03:25 AM	I recall one game where a GM set up a charger like that ... some Black Knight or somesuch, intent to mow us down via lancing. He'd tried the trick on another group, and they simply folded under it, so he assumed it would work on us. He won initiative, plowed into our big fighter (he lived, but did not enjoy it). Then, my turn came around. "Fully Augmented Mind Thrust. On the horse." Jawdrop. :D What does Mind Thrust do? It's not in the SRD, and if it requires an attack roll the black guard could've used mounted combat to raise his horse's AC by quite a bit.
OneWinged4ngel 08-06-06, 03:35 AM	Mind Thrust is a 1st level psionic power that requires a will save, or does damage, IIRC. In any case, pretty much everyone here has gotten it down. Horses are weaksauce. You can take them out with minimal effort. On top of that, you need conditions to be just right to charge. I say, if you can pull off the charge, you should be getting something for your trouble.
runestar 08-06-06, 03:44 AM	A centaur charger sounds like it would be fun, since it automatically qualifies for those charging feats(it is its own mount after all). :P
SageBahamut 08-06-06, 03:51 AM	Yeah, mounted combat can be a real DM headache. Killing off his horse is the best way to stop him from ruining an intended really big combat. Also remember that you can only charge in a straight line over open ground and not through other enemies unless you have that one really high-end tactical feat. So a good way for a perceptive enemy commander who knows what he's up against is to surround himself with goblins who can sow the ground with caltrops. Do you have any idea what caltrops can do to a horse? Especially if the poor fool doesn't see them coming? Also, if he's high enough level, your big baddie can simply cast a Wall of Force. I believe they're transparent, if I'm not mistaken, or at least easily disguised with Darkness or Obscuring Mist or any other easy "you don't see this area" spell, and charging headlong into one at full speed will make anyone's day less tasty. come to think of it, I lost a character to that once. he had wings and tried to flyby-attack a wizard who had a readied action. broke his neck. (treat as falling damage, basically)
Alric 08-06-06, 05:17 AM	Have some big guy set a spear against his charge targeting the horse and using power attack.
kjenks 08-06-06, 12:14 PM	A centaur charger sounds like it would be fun, since it automatically qualifies for those charging feats (it is its own mount after all). :P That's not true. There are many easy tactics for avoiding charge attacks. A smokestick is cheap and anybody can use it; it breaks up charge lanes nicely. Summon Monster/Speedbump works, too, especially when summoning several creatures and spreading them out along the charge paths. A scroll of Summon Speedbump II costs only 150 gp from the DMG scroll tables. (Summon I isn't worth it because the speedump only lasts one round.) Obscuring Mist scrolls work great, too. As long as you've made no other movement in the round, you can ready an action to move out of the charge path. Depending on your DM, you might be able to ready an action to take a 5 ft. step inside a lancer's reach and attack, hitting the lancer or his mount while avoiding a lance attack. The rider could still attack with an unarmed strike or armor spike, but that's not going to hurt nearly as much.
Kazeofwinds 08-06-06, 04:40 PM	I may Be wrong here. But arent lances treated as 1-handed when you use them mounted, the whole needing one hand to steer the horse and all?
bondious 08-06-06, 04:53 PM	I may Be wrong here. But arent lances treated as 1-handed when you use them mounted, the whole needing one hand to steer the horse and all? When I was reading this thread I thought the same thing. From all the pictures, movies and live demonstrations that I've seen I don't believe I've EVER seen a jouster hold his lance in two hands while on horseback. USUALLY you'll see him wielding it in one hand while the other hand is holding a shield or is on the reigns, or both. The thing is, though, that the rules say that the lance "CAN" be used in one hand, not "MUST", so those who want that extra x1.5 Str can utilize it UNDER THE RAW. In MY GAMES, though, I rule that a lance on horseback/while mounted is a "one-handed only weapon", while on foot it requires two hands. I've ALSO ruled that spears (and spear-like weapons, such as a trident) can be used one handed while mounted, though do not deal double (or triple) damage as a lance would during a charge.
miles2912 08-06-06, 06:18 PM	When I was reading this thread I thought the same thing. From all the pictures, movies and live demonstrations that I've seen I don't believe I've EVER seen a jouster hold his lance in two hands while on horseback. USUALLY you'll see him wielding it in one hand while the other hand is holding a shield or is on the reigns, or both. The thing is, though, that the rules say that the lance "CAN" be used in one hand, not "MUST", so those who want that extra x1.5 Str can utilize it UNDER THE RAW. In MY GAMES, though, I rule that a lance on horseback/while mounted is a "one-handed only weapon", while on foot it requires two hands. I've ALSO ruled that spears (and spear-like weapons, such as a trident) can be used one handed while mounted, though do not deal double (or triple) damage as a lance would during a charge. PHB page 157. - "With a DC 5 Ride check, you can guide your mount with your knees so as to use both hands to attack or defend yourself. This is a free action." My suggestion is just take out the horse. Tie a rope between 2 orcs and let him charge into that .. Think Ork Bolos. :) -DM
bondious 08-06-06, 07:03 PM	PHB page 157. - "With a DC 5 Ride check, you can guide your mount with your knees so as to use both hands to attack or defend yourself. This is a free action." Yeah, I know the rules. And I know it's D&D, a GAME, and all that jazz as well. I just so happen to hold to the image of a knight on horseback, with a lance in one hand and a shield in the other, charging in to break up the enemy's lines. Just my view of things. My suggestion is just take out the horse. Tie a rope between 2 orcs and let him charge into that .. Think Ork Bolos. :) The thing is, though, that I'm a DM myself and I feel that whole "just take out the horse" thing is just a bad way to "deal" with the situation. The player took those feats for a reason, and if I (or any DM) goes around and just kills his horse off every time he gets one then he'll PROBABLY be a bit disgruntled about the whole thing. I play with friends, people who I like and DON'T want to say "Well if you don't like it then you don't have to play", so I tend towards a balance of player freedom and DM control...hence the "Lance only one-handed when mounted" houserule. I figure that they're gonna get double (or triple on a critical hit) damage with the lance charge anyhow, and more if they have Spirited Charge, so there's really no NEED to add that 0.5 extra Strength damage. It's basically a compromise, and it helps keep down the Min/Max tendencies in my group.
ShinAkuma2 08-06-06, 07:10 PM	You can weild the lance one-handed if you want to do so, in order to hold a shield, or another weapon, or whatever. There's nothing forcing you to keep your off-hand free, however.
Kimokeo 08-07-06, 11:19 AM	If the rider is smart and has taken the necessary precautions: Go ahead and attack the mount. With barding and a ride check that could make a better AC for the mount (Combat Riding), attacking the horse could be lost cause.
bitnine 08-07-06, 11:39 AM	Try setting up your combat maps with a bit more detail. Include things like undergrowth, trees, and all the like. Even outdoors, in areas short of flat plainsland, there should be plenty of things here and there that block lines of charge. (And, of course, there's always the readied action to move away after the charger gets halfway to you.)
Tony Vargas 08-07-06, 01:10 PM	Yes, bonus damage from STR or power attack is multiplied. If you want to rein in (pi) the charge abuse in a little, though, you can invoke the D&D multiplier rules. You have to rule, of course, that the 2:1 power attack ratio /is/ a multiplier in the first place (expect spirited arguments against this from any rules lawyer - be willing to 'concede' that you're making a 'house rule' and move on), and you're layering on complexity in an area that's usually kept simple - also, to be consistent, you'll have to aply this every time anyone crits with a two-hander.... Anyway, under this interpretation damage would be multiplied as follows: Spirited Lance Charge (lance held two handed) STR damage: x1.5 x2 x2 = x3.5 (instead of x4.5) Power Attack damage: x2 x2 x2 = x4 (instead of x6) Lance damage: x2 x2 = x3 On a crit, it's anoter x3, so 2 more: x5.5, x6, & x5. Though this is certainly consistent with D&D rules on stacking multipliers, it's also a bit of a pain to calculate, and combat's usually slow enough as it is. To be fair, this multiplier-stacking would also come up any time someone critted while using a two-handed weapon.