Post/Author/DateTime	Post
killbot 10-25-05, 08:19 AM	Do people think that charging is a good move? Do many people do it often?
Rulebook 10-25-05, 08:31 AM	with a fighter type... i do it very very often. the abilty to cover a vast amount of distance and attack is a nice thing. this goes double if the enemy has a lot of ranged attacks. triple if they have a spellcaster. hell, i had a barbarian once who only kept a ranged weapon for "up" shooting, because he could charge about as far as most ranged weapons could fire.
Blas de Lezo 10-25-05, 09:07 AM	Charging is always good because you take the initiative. The one who charges is going to be one attack further than his opponent. Combine this with feats/classes/races that allow a full attack at the end of a charge (IE a shifter with 3 levels in weretouched master grants you with Pounce), and you'll get half the combat in your hand.
Robert 22 10-25-05, 09:13 AM	hell, i had a barbarian once who only kept a ranged weapon for "up" shooting, because he could charge about as far as most ranged weapons could fire. ?? Even enhanced he is only going to get 140ft on charge? Even the weak ranged weapons fire 500+. Robert
tarkin 10-25-05, 10:35 AM	500+ is with huge penalties. 140 ft is > than the non-penalty distance, and usually > the clean shot distance. I.E. > 150 ft, you can almost always find 100% cover from the archer.
q'afuu 10-25-05, 11:04 AM	500+ is with huge penalties. 140 ft is > than the non-penalty distance, and usually > the clean shot distance. I.E. > 150 ft, you can almost always find 100% cover from the archer. Conversely, > 150 ft. you almost always have to move over less than perfect terrain, which prevents you from charging. ;)
killbot 10-25-05, 11:07 AM	Also if you charge that far you are a long way from your friends. Hold person and coup de grae kinda long way away.
Enaloindir 10-25-05, 11:27 AM	Charging is always good because you take the initiative. The one who charges is going to be one attack further than his opponent. Combine this with feats/classes/races that allow a full attack at the end of a charge (IE a shifter with 3 levels in weretouched master grants you with Pounce), and you'll get half the combat in your hand. Actually, taking initiative is only good at relatively low levels. Once full attacks start doing substantially more damage than standard attacks, it is often better to be the chargee rather than the charger. Let's, compare two identical fighters. Both have 16 Strength, 12 Dexterity, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, a +1 longsword, a +1 full plate, and a +1 heavy shield. Thus, they have an attack bonus of (BAB + 5), deal 1d8+6 damage on a successful hit (an average of 10.5), and have an AC of 23. At low level (5), the total attack bonus will be +10, and +12 on a charge. Suppose Fighter A charges Fighter B. He will deal, on average, 5.25 points of damage (attack +12 vs AC 23 = 50% chance to hit for 10.5 points of damage). Next Fighter B takes a swing at A, and deals 5.25 points of damage on average (attack +10 vs AC 21 = 50% chance to hit for 10.5 points of damage). So, after one turn, both fighters have dealt identical damage (again, on average). Since they will both continue to deal identical damage on each of the following rounds, Fighter A will win the contest: A takes a small lead every turn, and B catches up. Now, at higher level (15), both fighters have taken Greater Weapon Focus and Specialization, so they have iterative attacks at +21/+16/+11, and deal 1d8+8 (12.5) points of damage on each hit. Their AC has increased to only 25, due do a DM not giving them any good magic items. Fighter A again charges Fighter B, dealing 11.875 point of damage (95% chance of dealing 12.5 damage). Next, Fighter B steps in and unleashes a full attack, dealing 26.25 points of damage (95%, 70% and 45% chance of dealing 12.5 damage). When it's Fighter A's turn again, he also full attacks, and deals 22.5 points of damage. Fighter B returns the favor, and also deals 22.5 points of damage. Here, the outcome is not certain, since A and B are leapfrogging with their total amount of damage dealt. However, because B's lead on A is greater than A's lead on B, the odds are in B's favor. Round | Dealt by A | Dealt by B | A ahead by -------+------------+------------+------------ 1a | 11.875 | 0 | 11.875 1b | 11.875 | 26.250 | -14.375 (trailing) 2a | 34.375 | 26.250 | 8.125 2b | 34.375 | 48.750 | -14.375 (trailing) 3a | 56.875 | 48.750 | 8.125 3b | 56.875 | 71.25 | -14.375 (trailing) At even higher level (20), both fighters have 4 iterative attacks, at +26/+21/+16/+11, still dealing 1d8+8 on each hit. Their DM has only given enough protective items to increase their AC to 30. Once more, A charges B, dealing 11.875 points of damage. B once again responds with a full attack, this time for 28.75 points of damage. On each of the following rounds, A and B keep taking whacks at each other, for 23.75 points of damage. Here, they are again leapfrogging, so no one fighter is certain of victory. However, B's lead is even bigger than A's lead, shifting the odds even more in favor of B Round | Dealt by A | Dealt by B | A ahead by -------+------------+------------+------------ 1a | 11.875 | 0 | 11.875 1b | 11.875 | 28.750 | -16.875 (trailing) 2a | 35.625 | 28.750 | 6.875 2b | 35.625 | 52.500 | -16.875 (trailing) 3a | 59.375 | 52.500 | 6.875 3b | 59.375 | 76.250 | -16.875 (trailing) Finally, let's consider those fighter decked out in magical gear: Str: 32 (16 base +5 levels +5 inherent +6 enhancement) AC: 38 (+3 Dex +13 armor +7 shield +5 natural +5 deflection +4 luck +1 dodge) Attack: +37/+37/+32/+27/+22 (+20 base +11 Str +5 enhancement +2 Weapon Focus) Damage: 5d6+25 (2d6 base +16 Str +5 enhancement +4 Weapon Specialization +1d6 flaming +1d6 cold +1d6 electricity) Equipment: +5 mithral full plate, +5 animated heavy shield, amulet of natural armor +5, ring of protection +5, cloak of resistance +5, ioun stone +4, +5 flaming frost shocking greatsword, boots of speed, gloves of Dex +4, belt of Str +6, tome of Str +5 Feats: Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword), Greater Weapon Focus (greatsword), Greater Weapon Specialization (greatsword) For the final time, A charges B, dealing 40.375 points of damage (95% chance of hitting for 42.5 damage). B retaliates with a furious full attack, dealing a staggering amount of 157.25 points of damage (5 attacks for 42.5 damage, with a chance of 95%, 95%, 85%, 60%, and 35%). Then, the normal full attacks start, with each fighter dealing 144.5 points of damage every round (95%, 95%, 75%, 50%, 25% for 42.5 damage). Once more, A and B are leapfrogging, but the odds of winning the combat are again in favor of B. Round | Dealt by A | Dealt by B | A ahead by -------+------------+------------+------------ 1a | 40.375 | 0 | 40.375 1b | 40.375 | 157.250 | -116.875 (trailing) 2a | 184.875 | 157.250 | 27.625 2b | 184.875 | 301.750 | -116.875 (trailing) 3a | 329.375 | 301.750 | 27.625 3b | 329.375 | 446.25 | -116.875 (trailing) Conclusion: If you face an opponent with a weak full attack, go ahead and charge. If charging means you will take a lot of damage when your target full attacks you, keep your distance, and wait until they charge you. Because most high CR monsters have a huge strength score (and devastating full attacks), my advice is to keep your distance. This is certainly valid when the target has greater reach than you do, as you will suffer an attack of opportunity when you charge, possibly giving your target enough of an advantage to always be ahead in the damage race... Enaloindir
kjenks 10-25-05, 11:49 AM	It's impossible to make a useful blanket statement like, "Thurg think charging good!" or even, "No sentient being would ever consider charging; the risks are just too great." Like every combat tactic, charging is good in some situations, bad in others. If you have a character with a lot of charge-related feats, like Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, Shock Trooper (CW), Combat Brute (CW), Fleet of Foot (CW), and Leap Attack (CV), he'll get a lot of advantages from charging. But charging lowers your AC and it opens you up for a full attack from your opponent, whom you are unlikely to drop in one hit. The tactical restrictions on charging mean that it can't happen all the time in close quarters and the terrain, walls and intervening characters can all interfere with the charge path. It's easier to charge if your adventuring buddies know that you're likely to charge and they adjust their positions to enable your charge, possibly delaying their actions until you've charged, or delaying your actions until they're out of your way. It's easier to charge if you can fly, especially if you start the combat in the air.
ssvegeta555 10-25-05, 11:52 AM	In addition to the uses of charging another good tactic is use the Paladin and his mount with the Ride-by attack feat. As Enaloindir pointed out, charging a dude with a lot of attacks is not really that effective. With the Paladin here, you can charge right past the dude, negating the ability for him to whack you with his full amount of attacks.
kjenks 10-25-05, 12:03 PM	With Ride-by Attack, make sure you use the modified rules in the Main 3.5e FAQ, since the rules in the Player's Handbook don't actually work as written. And you should completely disregard the Rules of the Game article, All About Movement, since its Ride-by Attack example is blatantly wrong.
chitzk0i 10-25-05, 12:22 PM	It's impossible to make a useful blanket statement like, "Thurg think charging good!" or even, "No sentient being would ever consider charging; the risks are just too great." Like every combat tactic, charging is good in some situations, bad in others. It's certainly possible, just not very accurate. [/mincing words]
Centauri 10-25-05, 12:23 PM	I could see charging as useful in the following situations: You can use your attack to Bull Rush, Trip, Sunder or Disarm your opponent so that he can't use a full attack on you in the next round. You are acting in the surprise round and you have a good chance of winning initiative in the first regular round. This also makes the previous options more useful, even if you don't have the Improved version, because (with some exception) you won't incur an attack of opportunity from the flat-footed target.
killbot 10-25-05, 12:51 PM	The reason I ask is that I have a habit of making charge happy fighters. I am figuring out a feat plan and I am thinking which way i want to go. What do people think about a overrun charge to start so then you have your enemy prone for a nasty full attack on your next round?
Dragonsblood 10-25-05, 01:00 PM	You are acting in the surprise round and you have a good chance of winning initiative in the first regular round. This also makes the previous options more useful, even if you don't have the Improved version, because (with some exception) you won't incur an attack of opportunity from the flat-footed target. Surprise rounds give you a standard action. Charging is a full round action.
Centauri 10-25-05, 01:09 PM	If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn. So, you can charge during your surprise round.
Centauri 10-25-05, 01:16 PM	What do people think about a overrun charge to start so then you have your enemy prone for a nasty full attack on your next round? Unfortunately for this plan, there is an erratum to the effect that an Overrun cannot be performed as part of a charge. Use a Trip instead.
killbot 10-25-05, 01:25 PM	Centuari, where is this eratta? Can you overrun at the end of a double move?
cwslyclgh 10-25-05, 01:29 PM	Also if you charge that far you are a long way from your friends. Hold person and coup de grae kinda long way away. happened to a barbarian in my game one time.... everybody but the player thought it was funny when the 13th level barbarian was taken out by the 5th level cleric and 5th level fighter standing next to each other.
Centauri 10-25-05, 01:32 PM	Centuari, where is this eratta? Can you overrun at the end of a double move? You can download all the errata here: http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a I think you can overrun as part of either your first or second move action on your turn.
killbot 10-25-05, 01:42 PM	Well no overrun on a charge. Does a double move with overrun then smacking them when they are on the ground sound like a viable tactic?
Centauri 10-25-05, 01:56 PM	Does a double move with overrun then smacking them when they are on the ground sound like a viable tactic? On the face of it, not really. You can't attack them until your next turn, or until they provoke an attack of opportunity when rising from prone.
killbot 10-25-05, 01:59 PM	I thought it might work if our Rogue delayed, I knocked the baddie prone and got behind him, and the Rogue came in for some prone SA. Also if their are a couple of guys it makes one enemy less effective for a while. I am still not sure if it is a good idea or not, so any opinions would be appreciated.
caradhras 10-25-05, 02:36 PM	prone SA? As far as I know, being prone doesn't enable SA, either the OOP from standing up.
killbot 10-25-05, 02:44 PM	prone SA? As far as I know, being prone doesn't enable SA, either the OOP from standing up. It doesn't, but the flank does. Being prone just makes it easier to hit and gives possible AoO's
Centauri 10-25-05, 03:03 PM	Ooh, Stunning Fist would be another good thing to use at the end of a charge. Grapple might be good too.
killbot 10-25-05, 03:11 PM	Their is a shield charge feat which can daze them and do extra damage (I think) if you charge and shield bash. Could work alright. Its feat intensive though I think.
00_Whupass 10-25-05, 03:52 PM	Well it sounds like your looking for a tactical/battlefield control fighter, to this end I would go with your standard tactical feats, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, and Improved Sunder, all of which benefit from being used at the end of a charge, though Improved trip to a much greater extent, since in a single round you've reached your target, knocked him prone, and made an attack against him, plus you'll get a AoO when he stands up.
E. Ravenwood 10-25-05, 07:36 PM	I know you have mainly been talking about charging on foot, but i have made a Palading/Cavalier (from Complete Warrior) and they have some bad ass charging techniques on horseback. It might be something to look into. ;)
Master of the Wild 10-26-05, 06:48 AM	Charging is best when you can full attack during it. There are a number of ways to this this. Besides the shifter-option, a druid can multiclass into Lion of Talisid or cast swift lion's pounce on him. Also, a druid can cast lion's pounce on someone (I think it's not personal but touch)? Or you could (be) polymorph(ed) into a tiger or some o ther fast feline with big teeth. even better with haste: +32/+32/+27/+22/+17 (2d6+34) or something can be quite deadly. Even if the opponent has six attacks, he won't make a full attack when he's dead (and instead should cast heal when he's not :D )
White_Wizard 10-26-05, 07:18 AM	Charge can be very useful in many ways, but it needs to be carefully used. The bad things in a charge are: diminished AC, vulerability to AoO and getting away from your friends. At this cost, however, you can use the +2 to hit during a charge to balance, for example, the penalty due to a Power Attack (this is especially useful at lower levels, when a single blow can take off the foe). Charge from higher ground is nearly always a good option to start the combat and try to wipe a single foe: +3 to hit total gives that 1 damage more that could make the difference (don't understimate it: 1 single hp has saved more than one elven/dwarven/human/whatever back) especially if it is a critical. There are feats and pieces of equipment that can improve the effect of a charge: using them means that the charge can become a primary combat option (think just about the lance: it deals a huge amount of damage in charge even without scoring a critical).
killbot 10-26-05, 07:35 AM	About battlefeild control I think Sunder usually just loses you treasure and my Char has the wrong stats for trip and disarm. I think that overrun is just as good as trip anyway except you don't get the extra free attack.
Blas de Lezo 10-26-05, 09:56 AM	Actually, taking initiative is only good at relatively low levels. Once full attacks start doing substantially more damage than standard attacks, it is often better to be the chargee rather than the charger. Let's, compare two identical fighters. Both have 16 Strength, 12 Dexterity, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization, a +1 longsword, a +1 full plate, and a +1 heavy shield. Thus, they have an attack bonus of (BAB + 5), deal 1d8+6 damage on a successful hit (an average of 10.5), and have an AC of 23. At low level (5), the total attack bonus will be +10, and +12 on a charge. Suppose Fighter A charges Fighter B. He will deal, on average, 5.25 points of damage (attack +12 vs AC 23 = 50% chance to hit for 10.5 points of damage). Next Fighter B takes a swing at A, and deals 5.25 points of damage on average (attack +10 vs AC 21 = 50% chance to hit for 10.5 points of damage). So, after one turn, both fighters have dealt identical damage (again, on average). Since they will both continue to deal identical damage on each of the following rounds, Fighter A will win the contest: A takes a small lead every turn, and B catches up. Now, at higher level (15), both fighters have taken Greater Weapon Focus and Specialization, so they have iterative attacks at +21/+16/+11, and deal 1d8+8 (12.5) points of damage on each hit. Their AC has increased to only 25, due do a DM not giving them any good magic items. Fighter A again charges Fighter B, dealing 11.875 point of damage (95% chance of dealing 12.5 damage). Next, Fighter B steps in and unleashes a full attack, dealing 26.25 points of damage (95%, 70% and 45% chance of dealing 12.5 damage). When it's Fighter A's turn again, he also full attacks, and deals 22.5 points of damage. Fighter B returns the favor, and also deals 22.5 points of damage. Here, the outcome is not certain, since A and B are leapfrogging with their total amount of damage dealt. However, because B's lead on A is greater than A's lead on B, the odds are in B's favor. Round | Dealt by A | Dealt by B | A ahead by -------+------------+------------+------------ 1a | 11.875 | 0 | 11.875 1b | 11.875 | 26.250 | -14.375 (trailing) 2a | 34.375 | 26.250 | 8.125 2b | 34.375 | 48.750 | -14.375 (trailing) 3a | 56.875 | 48.750 | 8.125 3b | 56.875 | 71.25 | -14.375 (trailing) At even higher level (20), both fighters have 4 iterative attacks, at +26/+21/+16/+11, still dealing 1d8+8 on each hit. Their DM has only given enough protective items to increase their AC to 30. Once more, A charges B, dealing 11.875 points of damage. B once again responds with a full attack, this time for 28.75 points of damage. On each of the following rounds, A and B keep taking whacks at each other, for 23.75 points of damage. Here, they are again leapfrogging, so no one fighter is certain of victory. However, B's lead is even bigger than A's lead, shifting the odds even more in favor of B Round | Dealt by A | Dealt by B | A ahead by -------+------------+------------+------------ 1a | 11.875 | 0 | 11.875 1b | 11.875 | 28.750 | -16.875 (trailing) 2a | 35.625 | 28.750 | 6.875 2b | 35.625 | 52.500 | -16.875 (trailing) 3a | 59.375 | 52.500 | 6.875 3b | 59.375 | 76.250 | -16.875 (trailing) Finally, let's consider those fighter decked out in magical gear: Str: 32 (16 base +5 levels +5 inherent +6 enhancement) AC: 38 (+3 Dex +13 armor +7 shield +5 natural +5 deflection +4 luck +1 dodge) Attack: +37/+37/+32/+27/+22 (+20 base +11 Str +5 enhancement +2 Weapon Focus) Damage: 5d6+25 (2d6 base +16 Str +5 enhancement +4 Weapon Specialization +1d6 flaming +1d6 cold +1d6 electricity) Equipment: +5 mithral full plate, +5 animated heavy shield, amulet of natural armor +5, ring of protection +5, cloak of resistance +5, ioun stone +4, +5 flaming frost shocking greatsword, boots of speed, gloves of Dex +4, belt of Str +6, tome of Str +5 Feats: Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword), Greater Weapon Focus (greatsword), Greater Weapon Specialization (greatsword) For the final time, A charges B, dealing 40.375 points of damage (95% chance of hitting for 42.5 damage). B retaliates with a furious full attack, dealing a staggering amount of 157.25 points of damage (5 attacks for 42.5 damage, with a chance of 95%, 95%, 85%, 60%, and 35%). Then, the normal full attacks start, with each fighter dealing 144.5 points of damage every round (95%, 95%, 75%, 50%, 25% for 42.5 damage). Once more, A and B are leapfrogging, but the odds of winning the combat are again in favor of B. Round | Dealt by A | Dealt by B | A ahead by -------+------------+------------+------------ 1a | 40.375 | 0 | 40.375 1b | 40.375 | 157.250 | -116.875 (trailing) 2a | 184.875 | 157.250 | 27.625 2b | 184.875 | 301.750 | -116.875 (trailing) 3a | 329.375 | 301.750 | 27.625 3b | 329.375 | 446.25 | -116.875 (trailing) Conclusion: If you face an opponent with a weak full attack, go ahead and charge. If charging means you will take a lot of damage when your target full attacks you, keep your distance, and wait until they charge you. Because most high CR monsters have a huge strength score (and devastating full attacks), my advice is to keep your distance. This is certainly valid when the target has greater reach than you do, as you will suffer an attack of opportunity when you charge, possibly giving your target enough of an advantage to always be ahead in the damage race... Enaloindir Damn! You're a D&D scientific! :eek: You conviced me, I'm actually playing a shifter and I think I won't charge full-attackers until I get 3 levels of weretouched master (Pounce).
Robert 22 10-27-05, 01:39 PM	Conclusion: If you face an opponent with a weak full attack, go ahead and charge. If charging means you will take a lot of damage when your target full attacks you, keep your distance, and wait until they charge you. Enaloindir Enaloindir has well covered the point for higher levels, though I think some clarification at lower levels will help. The important thing is the combat ration (CR), which depends on your (1) and your opponents (2) average damage. You calculate average damage by multiplying your probablility of a hit (H) by the average damage of your weapon (D), so: CR = H1*D1 / H2*D2 The question you must always ask is if the tactic increases your CR. If H1*D1 is a very small fraction of the other persons total HP (which it nearly always is) then the CR dominates over any question of gaining or losing initiative. Now with a charge the +2/-2 modifies everything as follows: CR = (H1+0.1)*D1 / (H2+0.1)*D2 Is that better than your CR when you didn't charge? Well the damage ratios cancel, so is: (H1+0.1)/(H2+0.1) > H1/H2 The answer is no if H1 and H2 are the same (say you both hit on a 16, then H1 = 0.5 and H2 = 0.5, so the ratio is 1 when you charge and 1 when you don't, no difference). If Your H1 is low and the other persons H2 is high (say you hit on a 19, and they hit on an 11, then the ratio is 0.2, but if you charge it is 0.33). If your H1 is high and the other persons H2 is low (swap those last two around and your ratio is 0.33 if you don't charge, and 0.2 if you do). So, for low level characters facing oponents who cannot multiple attack the general rule of thumb is, if you find it hard to hit and the opponent finds it easy (say a monk attacking a heavily armed soldier) go for a charge, otherwise don't bother. Exactly the reverse applies for defensive fighting, where (H1-0.1)/(H2-0.1) > H1/H2 So defensive fighting is in your interest if you find it easy to hit and the opponent finds it hard. This ignores initiative, but initiative doesn't actually determine the value of a charge, it determines the value of closing distance rather than waiting for the opponent to do the same. So there are times when you would charge to close, and times when you would standard move in fighting defensive, as well as times when you would refuse to close and wait for the opponent to do the same (needless to say a fight between two fighters with multiple attacks and reach weapons would be very, very dull to watch). Robert
tiercel 10-27-05, 07:02 PM	There is a nonmechanical aspect to charging as well. The upside is that you may hit an enemy that would prefer a round to prepare (either positioning, or (Sp)/spell buffs), and get an advantage. The downsides... not only have you separated from your party, but you could get yourself cut off from your party. If you don't coordinate with your mage, you could mess up his AoE attack/battlefield control spell or be out of range of his buff spell. And, of course, when you go charging in, you commit the rest of your party not only to fight but to closing with the enemy. Parties can get themselves killed because they had to go follow their headstrong charger, rather than hang back, assess, buff, harry from range.... This is why I don't like "charge builds" -- if you spend a lot of feats and resources making yourself awesome on a charge, then you need to charge to take advantage of them. If you charge all the time, sooner or later you will charge into something you shouldn't -- and you will drag the rest of your team in with you. Sometimes charging is the right thing to do -- but it's probably best not to put all your build in this basket, lest you drag your buddies into (at least the danger of) TPK.
Enaloindir 10-28-05, 02:06 AM	[...] (H1+0.1)/(H2+0.1) > H1/H2 The answer is no if H1 and H2 are the same (say you both hit on a 16, then H1 = 0.5 and H2 = 0.5, so the ratio is 1 when you charge and 1 when you don't, no difference). If Your H1 is low and the other persons H2 is high (say you hit on a 19, and they hit on an 11, then the ratio is 0.2, but if you charge it is 0.33). If your H1 is high and the other persons H2 is low (swap those last two around and your ratio is 0.33 if you don't charge, and 0.2 if you do). [...] Actually, when you both hit on a 16+, H1=H2=0.25. Of course, the fact that the ratio doesn't change remains unchanged. I also have some additional thoughts/comments: In my previous analysis, I didn't include a specialized charger build. Of course, it is possible to create characters whose charges are very deadly (lances and horses come to mind, or Leap Attack and Power Attack,...). For the sake of simplicity, I assumed that you didn't have a dedicated charger build. I find dedicated charger builds too circumstantial to be used effectively. Sure, they might drop every opponent they charge in a single strike, but due to terrain and positioning, they won't be able to charge an awful lot of enemies. As already mentioned, you might hinder your wizard's fireball, forcing him to rethink his strategy or use suboptimal spells. In my previous analysis, I didn't consider the event where you charge a group of enemies. If your charge leaves you within a 5' of another opponent, you will suffer 2 full attacks before you get to act again. This means you're in for a world of hurt. If there are even more opponent who can reach you (whether with a 5', regular move or charge), the situation only gets worse. If there are any rogues in the opposing team, you're also very likely to end up flanked, spanked and planked. ;) When you wait until your opponent closes/charges in, you can just reverse the situation... This is why, IMHO, the optimal adventuring party includes a heavy-hitting melee character, and a character capable of dealing good amounts of ranged damage (through spells, ranged attacks with Improved Rapid Shot from CW,...). This way, you create a damned if you don't, damned if you do situation for your enemies: they will take a lot of damage once they close into melee range, and take a lot of damage until they do so. When I think of more, I'll surely add them... Enaloindir