Chariot fighting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Chariot fighting [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ciaran
02-01-08, 08:37 PM So last year I painted a Warhammer chariot with two orcs and two boars. It was pretty cool looking when it was done and I just had to use it in my next D&D campaign.

I found some rules for chariot fighting in the old Arms & Equipment but I found them lacking... And a little lame.

I eventually said screw it and I just used the Mounted Combat chain, used in slightly differently ways by both the driver and the spearman (who had identical stats in the encounter).

Has anyone else experimented with this? I'd like some suggestions or insight. The M.C. feat chain doesn't translate perfectly but I didn't want to invent a knock-off Chariot Fighting chain or come up with my own (possibly overpowered) feats.

By the way... The orcs SLEW!! :D
mplindustries
02-01-08, 11:32 PM So last year I painted a Warhammer chariot with two orcs and two boars. It was pretty cool looking when it was done and I just had to use it in my next D&D campaign.

I found some rules for chariot fighting in the old Arms & Equipment but I found them lacking... And a little lame.

I eventually said screw it and I just used the Mounted Combat chain, used in slightly differently ways by both the driver and the spearman (who had identical stats in the encounter).

Has anyone else experimented with this? I'd like some suggestions or insight. The M.C. feat chain doesn't translate perfectly but I didn't want to invent a knock-off Chariot Fighting chain or come up with my own (possibly overpowered) feats.

By the way... The orcs SLEW!! :D

The truth is, nobody knows how real chariots were used for war. We have some extant chariot pieces. We have some artwork depicting people standing in chariots throwing spears. Maybe there are some brief mentions of having chariots in various texts, but there is virtually no knowledge of how they were employed. Sure, people have guesses, but thats about it.

So, if nobody knows how real chariots were used, how can someone write a system for simulating chariots? I'm curious, what about the chariot rules were unsatisfying to you? I'm really wondering what you're preconcieved notions of how chariots worked are.

Regardless, for simplicity's sake, I think you'd do fine just to treat it like a mounted character except with a cover bonus maybe.

As for knocking someone off a chariot, that'd be a trip attempt, just as tripping a cavalryman pulls him from the horse. Tipping a chariot? I'd say Bullrush.
Shadowfax7
02-02-08, 08:29 AM Have you seen this chain of feats, it is basically the Mounted Combat chain converted for chariots:

CHARIOT ARCHERY [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Chariot Combat, Handle Animal 1 rank.
Benefit: The penalty you suffer when using a ranged weapon from a chariot is halved: –2 rather than –4 if your chariot is taking a double move, and –4 instead of –8 if your mounts are running.
Special: A fighter may select Chariot Archery as one of the fighter’s bonus feats.

CHARIOT CHARGE [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Chariot Combat, Chariot Sideswipe, Handle Animal 1 rank.
Benefit: When aboard a chariot and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance or longspear).
Special: A fighter may select Chariot Charge as one of the fighter’s bonus feats.

CHARIOT COMBAT [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Handle Animal 1 rank.
Benefit: Once per round when either of your steeds is hit, you may make a Handle Animal check to negate the hit. The hit is negated if your Handle Animal check is greater than the attack roll (essentially, the Handle Animal check becomes the steed's Armor Class if it is higher than the steed's regular Armor Class).
Special: A fighter may select Chariot Combat as one of the fighter’s bonus feats.

CHARIOT SIDESWIPE [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Chariot Combat, Handle Animal 1 rank.
Benefit: With a charge action, you may maneuver your chariot close to a foe, attack, sideswipe with the chariot's scythes (assuming it has any), and move away again. You must continue the straight line of the charge with your movement, and your total movement in the round cannot exceed double the chariot's speed. Neither you nor your steeds provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent you are sideswiping.
Special: A fighter may select Chariot Sideswipe as one of the fighter’s bonus feats.

CHARIOT TRAMPLE [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Chariot Combat, Handle Animal 1 rank.
Benefit: When you attempt to overrun an opponent with your chariot, the target may not choose to avoid you. If you knock down the target, your steeds each may make one hoof attack against the opponent, gaining the
standard +4 bonus on attack rolls against prone targets. The wheels of the chariot do a further 2d6 points of damage automatically, but you must succeed in a Handle Animal check (DC varies depending on the size of the opponent) or upend the chariot. See the chart below for sample DCs.
Special: A fighter may select Chariot Trample as one of the fighter’s bonus feats.

Chariot Collision DCs
Light underbrush DC 10
Log DC 10
Muddy ground DC 10
Small pedestrian DC 10
Medium-size pedestrian DC 15
Large pedestrian (including horse) DC 20
Wooden fence DC 20
Heavy underbrush DC 20
Hedgerow DC 25
Another chariot, side or rear DC 25
Another chariot, head-on DC 30
ciaran
02-02-08, 08:54 AM I hadn't seen this feat chain, no. It seems in the same vein as what I was doing. The collision DCs are good. I hadn't thought of that.

I'm really wondering what you're preconcieved notions of how chariots worked are.

What kind of statement is that? Nobody knows what the effects of a real Fireball looks like either.
MC_Templar
02-02-08, 09:12 AM I would say the passenger would need to blow a feat on minimizing penalties as well or it should be difficult to fight from the second seat. ( I think mounted archery penalties should apply with a feat to reduce them)

Something important to consider.

In the ride rules, the ability to free both of your hands for combat is accomplished by using your knees to guide the horse. This isn't possible with a chariot, if the driver is focuses on combat (i.e. making full attack actions) the chariot should be considered out-of-control until he used and action again to guide the pul animals. This can lead to it's own fun as a player might come dangerously close to crashing several times during combat.

Important side note, if you have an goblin-laden chariot pulled by worgs, all the penalties disappear as the pull animals are intellegent and can talk to the passengers.

From the only game that I actually got to use a chariot, I had a blast, especially when one of the mage's spells got an enemy to catch fire, so he 'stop-dropped-and rolled' to put the fire out... meaning he couldnt chose to evade when I ran him over. And I still think a charioteer with brutal throw and harpoons that are attached to the ass end of a chariot is a fun character concept when a DM wants to run a battlefield focused game where mounted combat is okay.
ciaran
02-02-08, 07:38 PM I made it difficult to turn. I just simplified the Arms & Equipment rules on that. I mini inspired some of the choices I made. It shows the passenger weilding some kind of Greatspear that I just called a lance for the purpose of feats, while the driver has reigns in one hand and a crazy prodding device in the other, which I ruled as a regular spear w/o reach. Trample and Spirited Charge were goodies. I think I abstained from using Mounted Combat, except as a prereq, since I dodn't think a chariot couldn't really dodge very well.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ciaran 02-01-08, 08:37 PM	So last year I painted a Warhammer chariot with two orcs and two boars. It was pretty cool looking when it was done and I just had to use it in my next D&D campaign. I found some rules for chariot fighting in the old Arms & Equipment but I found them lacking... And a little lame. I eventually said screw it and I just used the Mounted Combat chain, used in slightly differently ways by both the driver and the spearman (who had identical stats in the encounter). Has anyone else experimented with this? I'd like some suggestions or insight. The M.C. feat chain doesn't translate perfectly but I didn't want to invent a knock-off Chariot Fighting chain or come up with my own (possibly overpowered) feats. By the way... The orcs SLEW!! :D
mplindustries 02-01-08, 11:32 PM	So last year I painted a Warhammer chariot with two orcs and two boars. It was pretty cool looking when it was done and I just had to use it in my next D&D campaign. I found some rules for chariot fighting in the old Arms & Equipment but I found them lacking... And a little lame. I eventually said screw it and I just used the Mounted Combat chain, used in slightly differently ways by both the driver and the spearman (who had identical stats in the encounter). Has anyone else experimented with this? I'd like some suggestions or insight. The M.C. feat chain doesn't translate perfectly but I didn't want to invent a knock-off Chariot Fighting chain or come up with my own (possibly overpowered) feats. By the way... The orcs SLEW!! :D The truth is, nobody knows how real chariots were used for war. We have some extant chariot pieces. We have some artwork depicting people standing in chariots throwing spears. Maybe there are some brief mentions of having chariots in various texts, but there is virtually no knowledge of how they were employed. Sure, people have guesses, but thats about it. So, if nobody knows how real chariots were used, how can someone write a system for simulating chariots? I'm curious, what about the chariot rules were unsatisfying to you? I'm really wondering what you're preconcieved notions of how chariots worked are. Regardless, for simplicity's sake, I think you'd do fine just to treat it like a mounted character except with a cover bonus maybe. As for knocking someone off a chariot, that'd be a trip attempt, just as tripping a cavalryman pulls him from the horse. Tipping a chariot? I'd say Bullrush.
Shadowfax7 02-02-08, 08:29 AM	Have you seen this chain of feats, it is basically the Mounted Combat chain converted for chariots: CHARIOT ARCHERY [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Chariot Combat, Handle Animal 1 rank. Benefit: The penalty you suffer when using a ranged weapon from a chariot is halved: –2 rather than –4 if your chariot is taking a double move, and –4 instead of –8 if your mounts are running. Special: A fighter may select Chariot Archery as one of the fighter’s bonus feats. CHARIOT CHARGE [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Chariot Combat, Chariot Sideswipe, Handle Animal 1 rank. Benefit: When aboard a chariot and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance or longspear). Special: A fighter may select Chariot Charge as one of the fighter’s bonus feats. CHARIOT COMBAT [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Handle Animal 1 rank. Benefit: Once per round when either of your steeds is hit, you may make a Handle Animal check to negate the hit. The hit is negated if your Handle Animal check is greater than the attack roll (essentially, the Handle Animal check becomes the steed's Armor Class if it is higher than the steed's regular Armor Class). Special: A fighter may select Chariot Combat as one of the fighter’s bonus feats. CHARIOT SIDESWIPE [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Chariot Combat, Handle Animal 1 rank. Benefit: With a charge action, you may maneuver your chariot close to a foe, attack, sideswipe with the chariot's scythes (assuming it has any), and move away again. You must continue the straight line of the charge with your movement, and your total movement in the round cannot exceed double the chariot's speed. Neither you nor your steeds provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent you are sideswiping. Special: A fighter may select Chariot Sideswipe as one of the fighter’s bonus feats. CHARIOT TRAMPLE [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Chariot Combat, Handle Animal 1 rank. Benefit: When you attempt to overrun an opponent with your chariot, the target may not choose to avoid you. If you knock down the target, your steeds each may make one hoof attack against the opponent, gaining the standard +4 bonus on attack rolls against prone targets. The wheels of the chariot do a further 2d6 points of damage automatically, but you must succeed in a Handle Animal check (DC varies depending on the size of the opponent) or upend the chariot. See the chart below for sample DCs. Special: A fighter may select Chariot Trample as one of the fighter’s bonus feats. Chariot Collision DCs Light underbrush DC 10 Log DC 10 Muddy ground DC 10 Small pedestrian DC 10 Medium-size pedestrian DC 15 Large pedestrian (including horse) DC 20 Wooden fence DC 20 Heavy underbrush DC 20 Hedgerow DC 25 Another chariot, side or rear DC 25 Another chariot, head-on DC 30
ciaran 02-02-08, 08:54 AM	I hadn't seen this feat chain, no. It seems in the same vein as what I was doing. The collision DCs are good. I hadn't thought of that. I'm really wondering what you're preconcieved notions of how chariots worked are. What kind of statement is that? Nobody knows what the effects of a real Fireball looks like either.
MC_Templar 02-02-08, 09:12 AM	I would say the passenger would need to blow a feat on minimizing penalties as well or it should be difficult to fight from the second seat. ( I think mounted archery penalties should apply with a feat to reduce them) Something important to consider. In the ride rules, the ability to free both of your hands for combat is accomplished by using your knees to guide the horse. This isn't possible with a chariot, if the driver is focuses on combat (i.e. making full attack actions) the chariot should be considered out-of-control until he used and action again to guide the pul animals. This can lead to it's own fun as a player might come dangerously close to crashing several times during combat. Important side note, if you have an goblin-laden chariot pulled by worgs, all the penalties disappear as the pull animals are intellegent and can talk to the passengers. From the only game that I actually got to use a chariot, I had a blast, especially when one of the mage's spells got an enemy to catch fire, so he 'stop-dropped-and rolled' to put the fire out... meaning he couldnt chose to evade when I ran him over. And I still think a charioteer with brutal throw and harpoons that are attached to the ass end of a chariot is a fun character concept when a DM wants to run a battlefield focused game where mounted combat is okay.
ciaran 02-02-08, 07:38 PM	I made it difficult to turn. I just simplified the Arms & Equipment rules on that. I mini inspired some of the choices I made. It shows the passenger weilding some kind of Greatspear that I just called a lance for the purpose of feats, while the driver has reigns in one hand and a crazy prodding device in the other, which I ruled as a regular spear w/o reach. Trample and Spirited Charge were goodies. I think I abstained from using Mounted Combat, except as a prereq, since I dodn't think a chariot couldn't really dodge very well.