Chasing an enemy [Archive] - Wizards Community

Chasing an enemy [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
kniteshade
04-02-08, 02:25 AM I just started playing D&D3.5 with a group and in our first game we came across something we weren't sure about. Thought someone could shed some light.

An enemy decided to run away from the battle. So they use a full-round-action and move at 4x their speed (thus 120feet)

If a regular PC could try to catch them, but would take a full round action and move at the same speed, and would end each round the same number of squares short each round. It would come down to who tires first. Makes sense.

However the PC who took chase moves at 40 rather than 30. So could run after and catch up in a single round. The question is: Because the full (4x speed) run is a full round action they couldn't do anything else such as trip or attack etc. Is their only option to move up next to the enemy, and wait for an Attack of Opportunity when the enemy tries to move again ?

And then the following round they have to do the same again, chase and wait ? All the rules for tripping, grappling, overrunning etc can't be done in the same round as a full speed run so you never get the chance to do these to a fleeing enemy. Seems that the faster character should have some kind of option to hold the enemy up in some way.

I apologize if im missing something obvious.

Regards,
Ben.
mplindustries
04-02-08, 02:36 AM I just started playing D&D3.5 with a group and in our first game we came across something we weren't sure about. Thought someone could shed some light.

An enemy decided to run away from the battle. So they use a full-round-action and move at 4x their speed (thus 120feet)

If a regular PC could try to catch them, but would take a full round action and move at the same speed, and would end each round the same number of squares short each round. It would come down to who tires first. Makes sense.

However the PC who took chase moves at 40 rather than 30. So could run after and catch up in a single round. The question is: Because the full (4x speed) run is a full round action they couldn't do anything else such as trip or attack etc. Is their only option to move up next to the enemy, and wait for an Attack of Opportunity when the enemy tries to move again ?

And then the following round they have to do the same again, chase and wait ? All the rules for tripping, grappling, overrunning etc can't be done in the same round as a full speed run so you never get the chance to do these to a fleeing enemy. Seems that the faster character should have some kind of option to hold the enemy up in some way.

I apologize if im missing something obvious.

Regards,
Ben.

You are completely correct. Chasing an enemy down is a very annoying prospect for a melee character with the way the rules are written. However, there are numerous spells that can completely stop any hope an enemy has for retreat. Even Grease, a 1st level spell, can make escape hell. With 3rd level spells, Sleet Storm makes it impossible. It even has an insanely long range. For non-spellcasting options, you have longbows. Composite Longbows can fire up to 1,100 feat, and a running opponent is not only denied their dexterity bonus, but for them to actually outpace your party, they are likely wearing nothing more than a chain shirt. Without awesome magical boosts or natural armor (if its a monster and not a humanoid), its an easy shot.
Kouk
04-02-08, 02:39 AM If you are catching up, then Charge and Grapple or Trip him :P
If you fail your attack, you are still next to him.

If you are alongside him, then he will provoke if he tries to move away, so you get another attack chance.

If you can't kill him (or stop him) at range, and you are exactly the same speed or just otherwise will not be able to catch him for a long time, then use the pursuit rules:

Evasion And Pursuit

In round-by-round movement, simply counting off squares, it’s impossible for a slow character to get away from a determined fast character without mitigating circumstances. Likewise, it’s no problem for a fast character to get away from a slower one.

When the speeds of the two concerned characters are equal, there’s a simple way to resolve a chase: If one creature is pursuing another, both are moving at the same speed, and the chase continues for at least a few rounds, have them make opposed Dexterity checks to see who is the faster over those rounds. If the creature being chased wins, it escapes. If the pursuer wins, it catches the fleeing creature.

Sometimes a chase occurs overland and could last all day, with the two sides only occasionally getting glimpses of each other at a distance. In the case of a long chase, an opposed Constitution check made by all parties determines which can keep pace the longest. If the creature being chased rolls the highest, it gets away. If not, the chaser runs down its prey, outlasting it with stamina.

EDIT: They leave a bit to be desired, but it's easier this way. You could just let him escape and Track him down with skills or magic too.

EDIT 2: After rereading the question, I will mention that yes you can in fact make Trip or Grapple attempts as AoOs.
kniteshade
04-02-08, 03:07 AM EDIT 2: After rereading the question, I will mention that yes you can in fact make Trip or Grapple attempts as AoOs.

Thanks to the both of you for your help. Its good at least to be confirmed that the rules are lacking.

Ill have a re-read over the AoO bits. If you can grip/tackle then it all seems reasonable and starts to make sense.

Ranged attacks are the obviously going to help/work. We just were thinking to ourselves that when you have a fast and large barbarian chasing down a small female mage, its silly that he couldn't just smack into her, or grab her clothes or something. I guess thats what the AoO's are for, to simulate the barbarian having an opportunity to do something after catching her in the case that she keeps on running.
Ninja_Ferret
04-02-08, 12:05 PM Yes you can trip/grapple/disarm/sunder in place of an attack. Even in AoO.
Hsien
04-02-08, 01:52 PM Some things to consider:

~When Running ( at x4 ) the character/enemy loses Dex to AC, unless they have the Run feat.
May be a factor if the pursuing character is a rogue and the enemy decides to run again the next round and risk an AoO.

~ Make sure that the Withdraw action and Run are not getting mixed
Withdraw prevents an AoO but only allows for a double move

~ Run must be in a straight line
Maeglin_Dubh
04-02-08, 04:17 PM The problem I'm seeing is...
Couldn't you just 5 foot step out of the threatened area and then run?
Hsien
04-02-08, 05:23 PM No, can't take a 5' step and perform any other movement.
Well except spell movement like teleport, ddoor etc...
Maeglin_Dubh
04-02-08, 07:00 PM Ah. We might have been misplaying, then, since the way we've been doing that is that everyone has a free five foot movement that takes place during their turn. On what page of the PHB or DMG would I find the relevant rules?
mplindustries
04-02-08, 08:15 PM Ah. We might have been misplaying, then, since the way we've been doing that is that everyone has a free five foot movement that takes place during their turn. On what page of the PHB or DMG would I find the relevant rules?
Run (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm#run)from the SRD.

"You can run as a full-round action. (If you do, you do not also get a 5-foot step.) When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line (or three times your speed if you’re in heavy armor). You lose any Dexterity bonus to AC unless you have the Run feat..."

Edit: The reason for this, is that a 5-foot step can only be taken during a round in which you have not otherwise moved (and I don't mean teleporting...I mean moved under your own power). Further up that same page is the following line:
"If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action."

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kniteshade 04-02-08, 02:25 AM	I just started playing D&D3.5 with a group and in our first game we came across something we weren't sure about. Thought someone could shed some light. An enemy decided to run away from the battle. So they use a full-round-action and move at 4x their speed (thus 120feet) If a regular PC could try to catch them, but would take a full round action and move at the same speed, and would end each round the same number of squares short each round. It would come down to who tires first. Makes sense. However the PC who took chase moves at 40 rather than 30. So could run after and catch up in a single round. The question is: Because the full (4x speed) run is a full round action they couldn't do anything else such as trip or attack etc. Is their only option to move up next to the enemy, and wait for an Attack of Opportunity when the enemy tries to move again ? And then the following round they have to do the same again, chase and wait ? All the rules for tripping, grappling, overrunning etc can't be done in the same round as a full speed run so you never get the chance to do these to a fleeing enemy. Seems that the faster character should have some kind of option to hold the enemy up in some way. I apologize if im missing something obvious. Regards, Ben.
mplindustries 04-02-08, 02:36 AM	I just started playing D&D3.5 with a group and in our first game we came across something we weren't sure about. Thought someone could shed some light. An enemy decided to run away from the battle. So they use a full-round-action and move at 4x their speed (thus 120feet) If a regular PC could try to catch them, but would take a full round action and move at the same speed, and would end each round the same number of squares short each round. It would come down to who tires first. Makes sense. However the PC who took chase moves at 40 rather than 30. So could run after and catch up in a single round. The question is: Because the full (4x speed) run is a full round action they couldn't do anything else such as trip or attack etc. Is their only option to move up next to the enemy, and wait for an Attack of Opportunity when the enemy tries to move again ? And then the following round they have to do the same again, chase and wait ? All the rules for tripping, grappling, overrunning etc can't be done in the same round as a full speed run so you never get the chance to do these to a fleeing enemy. Seems that the faster character should have some kind of option to hold the enemy up in some way. I apologize if im missing something obvious. Regards, Ben. You are completely correct. Chasing an enemy down is a very annoying prospect for a melee character with the way the rules are written. However, there are numerous spells that can completely stop any hope an enemy has for retreat. Even Grease, a 1st level spell, can make escape hell. With 3rd level spells, Sleet Storm makes it impossible. It even has an insanely long range. For non-spellcasting options, you have longbows. Composite Longbows can fire up to 1,100 feat, and a running opponent is not only denied their dexterity bonus, but for them to actually outpace your party, they are likely wearing nothing more than a chain shirt. Without awesome magical boosts or natural armor (if its a monster and not a humanoid), its an easy shot.
Kouk 04-02-08, 02:39 AM	If you are catching up, then Charge and Grapple or Trip him :P If you fail your attack, you are still next to him. If you are alongside him, then he will provoke if he tries to move away, so you get another attack chance. If you can't kill him (or stop him) at range, and you are exactly the same speed or just otherwise will not be able to catch him for a long time, then use the pursuit rules: Evasion And Pursuit In round-by-round movement, simply counting off squares, it’s impossible for a slow character to get away from a determined fast character without mitigating circumstances. Likewise, it’s no problem for a fast character to get away from a slower one. When the speeds of the two concerned characters are equal, there’s a simple way to resolve a chase: If one creature is pursuing another, both are moving at the same speed, and the chase continues for at least a few rounds, have them make opposed Dexterity checks to see who is the faster over those rounds. If the creature being chased wins, it escapes. If the pursuer wins, it catches the fleeing creature. Sometimes a chase occurs overland and could last all day, with the two sides only occasionally getting glimpses of each other at a distance. In the case of a long chase, an opposed Constitution check made by all parties determines which can keep pace the longest. If the creature being chased rolls the highest, it gets away. If not, the chaser runs down its prey, outlasting it with stamina. EDIT: They leave a bit to be desired, but it's easier this way. You could just let him escape and Track him down with skills or magic too. EDIT 2: After rereading the question, I will mention that yes you can in fact make Trip or Grapple attempts as AoOs.
kniteshade 04-02-08, 03:07 AM	EDIT 2: After rereading the question, I will mention that yes you can in fact make Trip or Grapple attempts as AoOs. Thanks to the both of you for your help. Its good at least to be confirmed that the rules are lacking. Ill have a re-read over the AoO bits. If you can grip/tackle then it all seems reasonable and starts to make sense. Ranged attacks are the obviously going to help/work. We just were thinking to ourselves that when you have a fast and large barbarian chasing down a small female mage, its silly that he couldn't just smack into her, or grab her clothes or something. I guess thats what the AoO's are for, to simulate the barbarian having an opportunity to do something after catching her in the case that she keeps on running.
Ninja_Ferret 04-02-08, 12:05 PM	Yes you can trip/grapple/disarm/sunder in place of an attack. Even in AoO.
Hsien 04-02-08, 01:52 PM	Some things to consider: ~When Running ( at x4 ) the character/enemy loses Dex to AC, unless they have the Run feat. May be a factor if the pursuing character is a rogue and the enemy decides to run again the next round and risk an AoO. ~ Make sure that the Withdraw action and Run are not getting mixed Withdraw prevents an AoO but only allows for a double move ~ Run must be in a straight line
Maeglin_Dubh 04-02-08, 04:17 PM	The problem I'm seeing is... Couldn't you just 5 foot step out of the threatened area and then run?
Hsien 04-02-08, 05:23 PM	No, can't take a 5' step and perform any other movement. Well except spell movement like teleport, ddoor etc...
Maeglin_Dubh 04-02-08, 07:00 PM	Ah. We might have been misplaying, then, since the way we've been doing that is that everyone has a free five foot movement that takes place during their turn. On what page of the PHB or DMG would I find the relevant rules?
mplindustries 04-02-08, 08:15 PM	Ah. We might have been misplaying, then, since the way we've been doing that is that everyone has a free five foot movement that takes place during their turn. On what page of the PHB or DMG would I find the relevant rules? Run (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm#run)from the SRD. "You can run as a full-round action. (If you do, you do not also get a 5-foot step.) When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line (or three times your speed if you’re in heavy armor). You lose any Dexterity bonus to AC unless you have the Run feat..." Edit: The reason for this, is that a 5-foot step can only be taken during a round in which you have not otherwise moved (and I don't mean teleporting...I mean moved under your own power). Further up that same page is the following line: "If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action."