City guards, warrior or fighter? [Archive] - Wizards Community

City guards, warrior or fighter? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
simen_88
08-31-04, 02:32 PM The old thread of mine was deleted, and I only saw one reply...:( So here's a new one.

Summary of my old post: Militarist fascist city, hardcore reach weapon trip/disarm patrol guards, not sure if they should be warriors or fighters, but around level 3. Suggestions?
Elgonn
08-31-04, 02:41 PM NPCs even guards should be warriors.
masterofmayhem
08-31-04, 02:42 PM Standard guards are usually warriors, whereas guard captains are fighters, according to the DMG. That never made sense to me, though; guard captains were once guards, so did they magically change their levels to fighter?

What stat method does your campaign use? If it's really good, the increased toughness for using fighters instead of warriors would make it closer to how challenging it should be (whereas warriors would be too easy).
simen_88
08-31-04, 02:49 PM For NPCs, I use the elite array. This city's pride is their military system, so they are a bit better than your average guard. We are talking brainwash, used for riot control, et.c.
residieu
08-31-04, 04:03 PM The old thread of mine was deleted, and I only saw one reply...:( So here's a new one.

Summary of my old post: Militarist fascist city, hardcore reach weapon trip/disarm patrol guards, not sure if they should be warriors or fighters, but around level 3. Suggestions?

I use fighters rather than warriors above lvl 1. And especially since these seem to be well trained guards, not just guys right out of basic training.

As for Guard captains once being warriors, I generally see warrior as just a Lvl 0 fighter step, as soon as he gets any real experience he converts his class to fighter.
Wil Harvey
08-31-04, 04:12 PM Easy answer: Both.

Typically, the lower level guards should be warriors. The leadership should be fighters.

Feel free to have any combination of the two groups, though. Maybe have the common guards be warriors, and then a more elite group of guards be lower-level fighters, while the leaders are mid-level fighters.
Greyman
08-31-04, 10:19 PM Standard guards are usually warriors, whereas guard captains are fighters, according to the DMG. That never made sense to me, though; guard captains were once guards, so did they magically change their levels to fighter?Guard captains are those guards specially trained to be captains from the start. Think of it as the difference between enlisted men (and non-commissioned officers) versus commissioned officers. Promotion of captains from common ranks would indeed involve multiclassing. But for quick and easy town generation it's simpler to assume single classing.
ClementWillowbreaker
08-31-04, 10:32 PM Personally, I find both classes to be lacking. I use a Guard Class. A warrior with two more skill points per level, and Diplomacy, Gather Information, Knowledge (local), Listen, Search, Spot, and Sense Motive as extra class skills. It makes it a PC worthy class...almost. But that's my tastes- I like my guards to be more like police officers than soldiers. Historical setting accuracy? What's that? There are dragons!

If you like skills as much as I do, multiclassing inspectors/commanders into Rogue certainly works too.

But for your hardcore military police, I would make them Fighters for the extra feat.
Thelon Fairblade
09-01-04, 09:00 AM "Guards" IMC vary from city to city. In one County, the City Guard are actually just County Guard (standing military force) who aren't "on maneuvers", and are hence low-level fighters. In another city (corrupt, think mob-run Chicago), all the guardsmen are (warrior 1 / rogue 1) thugs out to make some money on the side. In the kingdom's capital, the quality of the guardsmen varies from the docks (warriors and thugs) to the nobles' Quarter (the Royal Guard: low to mid-level fighters and paladins).

In the kingdom you described, I would almost advocate Fighter/Rogues. Fighter gets you the feats for Trip and Disarm, and Rogue gets you skills and Sneak Attack for dealing with "unruly" miscreants. Plus you get 11 to 13 hp, plus CON.
Tony Vargas
09-01-04, 12:35 PM Warriors, definitely. PC classes are not that common, so a large body like a city guard would mostly consist of warriors. There could certainly be fighter - or other classes - in the ranks, too, of course. It depends on how much detail you want to get into. If you just want a generic gaurd, then a single warrior 3 build will do for all of them. A Human Warrior 3 has 3 feats, and, they're presumably the ones required by of the gaurdsmen - presumably Combat Expertise and Improved Trip & Disarm (judging by your description). A young prodigy (Fighter 1, also 3 feats) might also qualify for the guards on the strength of mastering those same feats, for instance, while a militiaman (several levels of commoner or expert, and one of warrior) might have quite a few more levels under his belt before qualifying.
FriendoftheDork
09-01-04, 12:56 PM I agree, warriors. If they should be tougher than usual, as in having more combat experience, give them more levels!
Fighters represents elite soldiers, those with special training. Those not trained for it from the beginning remian warriors unless they recieve special trianing afterwards, then they become multiclass warrior/fighter.

If you want your basic guard to be elite trained (think swat, not police patrolman) then by all means start them out as fighters with elite array and npc equipment. A lvl 3 human warrior is rather experienced and can have expertise, improved trip and combat reflexes. By your description of the city I think they would be the type to rush in and subdue percieved criminals rather than trying to negotiate as the modern policeman does. Thus lots of skills isn't needed.
simen_88
09-01-04, 05:14 PM Ok, thanks for all the replies. I settled on the guard class ClementWillowbreaker made, and level 3. Used 2 ranger/ 2 fighter for some elite scout/ spy troops hanging around on rooftops and providing sniper fire.
Lord Deadite
09-01-04, 05:15 PM Fighters are trained military used in cities, while warriors are militia often used in smaller towns.
Ipsissimus
09-01-04, 09:36 PM beating a dead horse...

A good example is to look at the Silver Marches book or FR book, it lists the population of many cities down the number of citizens and guards. That's a good way to guage your troops status and levels.
Sensei Gith
09-01-04, 09:43 PM Fighters. They don't horribly screw with common sense and the CR system. Just make them lower level. If you want really weak guards, make them CR 1/2 level one warriors, but don't take that class past level one for anyone; just replace the warrior level with a fighter level when they reach level one.
Lasrifriir
09-01-04, 09:56 PM I typically change guard classes around according to where the guards are stationed.

For example, guards found in the city slums/fens are almost without exception Warrior 1's. They are the least trained and probably have the lowest salaries of all the town guards. They are usually on the take of the local thieves' guild and only act upon crimes that are commited outside of the guild's influence (and even then without enthusiasm).

On the flipside, guards in the rich merchant or ambassador quarters are the elite of the guard. They are at least 2-3rd level, usually with PC classes. They are equipped with masterwork arms and armor as well as motivation. They travel in ordered groups and always have one or more mages (typically wizards) with them.

Guards in the temple city sections are usually funded by both the church and the guard (to a lesser extent). Think 4-5th level PC Classes, backed by clerics and magic users. Travel in groups of 8-12 or so. Many have magical arms and armor, scrolls, and other such items. The crack troops, in other words.

The two examples I gave above are tailored towards large cities where large guards are needed, however. In the smaller towns and cities a unified town guard of similar levels makes perfect sense.

Your previously mentioned city sounds like it has a very strong military tradition (even if it is somewhat forced). The Guard 3 and sniper combinations sound very good. If your city has a war college, you should consider giving some of the higher level members of the guard classes in a commander-type class. A large guard will keep a coterie of wizards around as well to deal with magical threats as well.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
simen_88 08-31-04, 02:32 PM	The old thread of mine was deleted, and I only saw one reply...:( So here's a new one. Summary of my old post: Militarist fascist city, hardcore reach weapon trip/disarm patrol guards, not sure if they should be warriors or fighters, but around level 3. Suggestions?
Elgonn 08-31-04, 02:41 PM	NPCs even guards should be warriors.
masterofmayhem 08-31-04, 02:42 PM	Standard guards are usually warriors, whereas guard captains are fighters, according to the DMG. That never made sense to me, though; guard captains were once guards, so did they magically change their levels to fighter? What stat method does your campaign use? If it's really good, the increased toughness for using fighters instead of warriors would make it closer to how challenging it should be (whereas warriors would be too easy).
simen_88 08-31-04, 02:49 PM	For NPCs, I use the elite array. This city's pride is their military system, so they are a bit better than your average guard. We are talking brainwash, used for riot control, et.c.
residieu 08-31-04, 04:03 PM	The old thread of mine was deleted, and I only saw one reply...:( So here's a new one. Summary of my old post: Militarist fascist city, hardcore reach weapon trip/disarm patrol guards, not sure if they should be warriors or fighters, but around level 3. Suggestions? I use fighters rather than warriors above lvl 1. And especially since these seem to be well trained guards, not just guys right out of basic training. As for Guard captains once being warriors, I generally see warrior as just a Lvl 0 fighter step, as soon as he gets any real experience he converts his class to fighter.
Wil Harvey 08-31-04, 04:12 PM	Easy answer: Both. Typically, the lower level guards should be warriors. The leadership should be fighters. Feel free to have any combination of the two groups, though. Maybe have the common guards be warriors, and then a more elite group of guards be lower-level fighters, while the leaders are mid-level fighters.
Greyman 08-31-04, 10:19 PM	Standard guards are usually warriors, whereas guard captains are fighters, according to the DMG. That never made sense to me, though; guard captains were once guards, so did they magically change their levels to fighter?Guard captains are those guards specially trained to be captains from the start. Think of it as the difference between enlisted men (and non-commissioned officers) versus commissioned officers. Promotion of captains from common ranks would indeed involve multiclassing. But for quick and easy town generation it's simpler to assume single classing.
ClementWillowbreaker 08-31-04, 10:32 PM	Personally, I find both classes to be lacking. I use a Guard Class. A warrior with two more skill points per level, and Diplomacy, Gather Information, Knowledge (local), Listen, Search, Spot, and Sense Motive as extra class skills. It makes it a PC worthy class...almost. But that's my tastes- I like my guards to be more like police officers than soldiers. Historical setting accuracy? What's that? There are dragons! If you like skills as much as I do, multiclassing inspectors/commanders into Rogue certainly works too. But for your hardcore military police, I would make them Fighters for the extra feat.
Thelon Fairblade 09-01-04, 09:00 AM	"Guards" IMC vary from city to city. In one County, the City Guard are actually just County Guard (standing military force) who aren't "on maneuvers", and are hence low-level fighters. In another city (corrupt, think mob-run Chicago), all the guardsmen are (warrior 1 / rogue 1) thugs out to make some money on the side. In the kingdom's capital, the quality of the guardsmen varies from the docks (warriors and thugs) to the nobles' Quarter (the Royal Guard: low to mid-level fighters and paladins). In the kingdom you described, I would almost advocate Fighter/Rogues. Fighter gets you the feats for Trip and Disarm, and Rogue gets you skills and Sneak Attack for dealing with "unruly" miscreants. Plus you get 11 to 13 hp, plus CON.
Tony Vargas 09-01-04, 12:35 PM	Warriors, definitely. PC classes are not that common, so a large body like a city guard would mostly consist of warriors. There could certainly be fighter - or other classes - in the ranks, too, of course. It depends on how much detail you want to get into. If you just want a generic gaurd, then a single warrior 3 build will do for all of them. A Human Warrior 3 has 3 feats, and, they're presumably the ones required by of the gaurdsmen - presumably Combat Expertise and Improved Trip & Disarm (judging by your description). A young prodigy (Fighter 1, also 3 feats) might also qualify for the guards on the strength of mastering those same feats, for instance, while a militiaman (several levels of commoner or expert, and one of warrior) might have quite a few more levels under his belt before qualifying.
FriendoftheDork 09-01-04, 12:56 PM	I agree, warriors. If they should be tougher than usual, as in having more combat experience, give them more levels! Fighters represents elite soldiers, those with special training. Those not trained for it from the beginning remian warriors unless they recieve special trianing afterwards, then they become multiclass warrior/fighter. If you want your basic guard to be elite trained (think swat, not police patrolman) then by all means start them out as fighters with elite array and npc equipment. A lvl 3 human warrior is rather experienced and can have expertise, improved trip and combat reflexes. By your description of the city I think they would be the type to rush in and subdue percieved criminals rather than trying to negotiate as the modern policeman does. Thus lots of skills isn't needed.
simen_88 09-01-04, 05:14 PM	Ok, thanks for all the replies. I settled on the guard class ClementWillowbreaker made, and level 3. Used 2 ranger/ 2 fighter for some elite scout/ spy troops hanging around on rooftops and providing sniper fire.
Lord Deadite 09-01-04, 05:15 PM	Fighters are trained military used in cities, while warriors are militia often used in smaller towns.
Ipsissimus 09-01-04, 09:36 PM	beating a dead horse... A good example is to look at the Silver Marches book or FR book, it lists the population of many cities down the number of citizens and guards. That's a good way to guage your troops status and levels.
Sensei Gith 09-01-04, 09:43 PM	Fighters. They don't horribly screw with common sense and the CR system. Just make them lower level. If you want really weak guards, make them CR 1/2 level one warriors, but don't take that class past level one for anyone; just replace the warrior level with a fighter level when they reach level one.
Lasrifriir 09-01-04, 09:56 PM	I typically change guard classes around according to where the guards are stationed. For example, guards found in the city slums/fens are almost without exception Warrior 1's. They are the least trained and probably have the lowest salaries of all the town guards. They are usually on the take of the local thieves' guild and only act upon crimes that are commited outside of the guild's influence (and even then without enthusiasm). On the flipside, guards in the rich merchant or ambassador quarters are the elite of the guard. They are at least 2-3rd level, usually with PC classes. They are equipped with masterwork arms and armor as well as motivation. They travel in ordered groups and always have one or more mages (typically wizards) with them. Guards in the temple city sections are usually funded by both the church and the guard (to a lesser extent). Think 4-5th level PC Classes, backed by clerics and magic users. Travel in groups of 8-12 or so. Many have magical arms and armor, scrolls, and other such items. The crack troops, in other words. The two examples I gave above are tailored towards large cities where large guards are needed, however. In the smaller towns and cities a unified town guard of similar levels makes perfect sense. Your previously mentioned city sounds like it has a very strong military tradition (even if it is somewhat forced). The Guard 3 and sniper combinations sound very good. If your city has a war college, you should consider giving some of the higher level members of the guard classes in a commander-type class. A large guard will keep a coterie of wizards around as well to deal with magical threats as well.