Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Starman IX 12-04-06, 01:52 PM	Would that have to be crafted with Forge Ring or Forge Epic Ring? Also, would it be too cheesy, like the Ring of True Strike?
jaelis 12-04-06, 01:57 PM	It's well above the non-epic price range, no matter how you do it. So it's an epic item, you'd need the epic feat to do it. Whether it's too cheesy, I don't know... everything is sort of cheesy in epic.
Witch 12-04-06, 02:02 PM	That's not very cheesy at all. At Epic, 150 HP each is nice, but it ruins a standard action, and it definitely won't heal you to full. Perhaps not even to half. It's likely not even an item I'd buy for combat use. Now, a Twinned Mass Heal item, I might buy.
Starman IX 12-04-06, 02:10 PM	OK, the regular ring would cost: (9 x 25 x 1800) x 2 = 810,000 gold. How does the epic pricing scale go?
Merestil Haye 12-04-06, 02:11 PM	I'd think it requires Craft Epic Ring, because you are setting the caster level at above 20th, which is a listed epic threshold. However, such an item would not trigger the *10 epic price modifier unless a 10th level (or higher) spell slot is required. (CL is explicitly identified as an epic threshold which does not trigger the *10 multiplier.) Added : I don't consider that price by itself triggers the *10 multiplier either.
Nezkrul 12-04-06, 03:30 PM	um dont use the formula clxslx1800 that's just a last resort, first look for a similar item and its price. Since I don't know of any item that does have a similar effect then use the formula. But remember rule 0 for custom magic items: determine the market price of the item based on how useful/powerful the item really is. A ring that casts mass heal at caster level 25 unlimited times per day is damn powerful, even more so if it doesn't count against a ring slot. so we have 9 x 25 x 1,800 = 405,000, definately way too low for the power of such a useful item (it replaces the need to have someone that can actually cast healing spells in the party) therefore, I'd say make it a minimum of 1 million gp, if not 2 million.
Witch 12-04-06, 03:32 PM	Nonsense, it's not that powerful. It's not worthy of such a price. 405,000 should be fine.
risner 12-04-06, 05:00 PM	Lets average it to 3 people healed (the Mass part.) Ring of Regen when used by a level 25 character would heal 25 hp per hour 0.416 hp per minute 0.0416_ hp per round This heals 1,080 times as much per round. It should cost 1080 times as much as a Ring of Regen. 97,200,015 gp I subscribe to the over 200,000 gp rule on epic 10x cost, so epic cost: 972,000,150 gp Almost a cool billion gp.
Witch 12-04-06, 05:01 PM	All you just proved is that you don't have a clue about Epic Play.
Tyler Do'Urden 12-04-06, 07:51 PM	This heals 1,080 times as much per round. It should cost 1080 times as much as a Ring of Regen.Windmills do not work that way. Goodnight. 250 hp for up to a dozen Medium people five times per day is probably worth the 4 million. But this is epic, so 400 favors.
Nezkrul 12-04-06, 08:09 PM	just gonna have to disagree with you guys, seriously, you dont think completely replacing a needed character type with a simple command word magic item that ANYONE can use is only worth less than a Rod of Invulnerability? psshhh You guys must think gloves of perma wraithstrike is only 48,000gp eh?
Starman IX 12-04-06, 08:43 PM	The ring cannot restore, resurrect, or even buff. It does not replace a cleric. 810,000 for one person to activate a ring every round at epic levels? Not to mention that person would draw massive amounts of aggro (forgive me for using a MMO term). Yeah, it's probably not worth it when you can afford it. Also, how are you getting perma wraithstrike for 48,000?
Witch 12-05-06, 05:07 AM	Starman, I'd suggest you ask this on the Epic Boards instead, where more knowledgeable people can discuss it. Nezkrul: Heal barely does anything by the time you can afford this item. If you've got 600 HP, and monsters are able to deal about 1000 if all their attacks hit, healing 150 HP is a waste of a standard action. If you think all the Divine Type has to do is healing, I'd suggest you take a look at Epic Spellcasting and buffs. And offensive spells that allow no "save negates", as well. No, Wraithstrike is not only 48,000. It is either an awesome power of an epic intelligent magic item, or the equivalent of a +7 weapon bonus.
Aluroon 12-05-06, 08:13 AM	Lets average it to 3 people healed (the Mass part.) Ring of Regen when used by a level 25 character would heal 25 hp per hour 0.416 hp per minute 0.0416_ hp per round This heals 1,080 times as much per round. It should cost 1080 times as much as a Ring of Regen. 97,200,015 gp I subscribe to the over 200,000 gp rule on epic 10x cost, so epic cost: 972,000,150 gp Almost a cool billion gp. Ahahah ahah hahah ahah haha ha. Thats a Funny Joke. Wait your serious? ahahahah ahahahah ha hah hahahaha ha Its not worth a million gp, 400,000 is more then enough for a standard action to heal 150hp at epic levels. I could actually see a cleric buying one of these for out of combat healing. Now 150hp a round as a free action like a ring of regeneration, that I might pay a couple million gp for.
Merestil Haye 12-05-06, 08:34 AM	250 hp for up to a dozen Medium people five times per day is probably worth the 4 million. But this is epic, so 400 favors.Only 150hp. Heal has an inbuilt level cap. (There's actually no point at all in making the ring at CL25 unless the setting has some sort of "caster level check to make healing work" mechanic. just gonna have to disagree with you guys, seriously, you dont think completely replacing a needed character type with a simple command word magic item that ANYONE can use is only worth less than a Rod of Invulnerability? psshhhYou do realise that this item can be used only five times per day? It cannot "completely replace" the Cleric. Lets average it to 3 people healed (the Mass part.) Ring of Regen when used by a level 25 character would heal 25 hp per hour 0.416 hp per minute 0.0416_ hp per round This heals 1,080 times as much per round. It should cost 1080 times as much as a Ring of Regen.Very poor choice of comparator. Going down this route it would be better to look at the total number of hp healed per day. It's very dificult to get a resonable estimate of how many hp the proposed ring would heal, but 3 people per activation for the full 160hp each gives 450. Multiplied by 5 (the number of activations) gives 2,250hp. The Ring of Regeneration worn by a 25th level cleric heals a maximum of 600hp per day. 600 / 2,250 =/= 1,080. Not nearly. Let's be harsh and say that the Heal ring is four times as effective at healing as the Ring of Regeneration. 4 * 90,000 = 360,000. I also think that you are not applying the final step of the process - the one which says the DM should look at the calculated price and determine what level of play the price would make the ring suitable for, having regard to the wealth-by-level guidelines, and then adjust it accordingly. A price of 360k would make it viable (<50% of wealth guidelines) for a character partway through 19th level. A price of 405k would put it at 20th-21st. (Rings are never an innapropriate body slot so there would be no doubling). Your suggested 975 million... well I'm not sure exactly when it becomes viable, but it's certainly somewhere in the mid 100-levels. I'm sorry, but to such characters this would be a trinket. Something to use after a battle to restore a fraction of their hp. I don't think I'd want the item available sub-epic, so I'd want to set the price at around ½million gp, that being just over the wealth guideline for a 21st level character. So by DM fiat, I'd price it at 540k - double the price of a ring at CL15. The higher caster level has ne real effect on the game.
Aluroon 12-05-06, 10:19 AM	Only 150hp. Heal has an inbuilt level cap. (There's actually no point at all in making the ring at CL25 unless the setting has some sort of "caster level check to make healing work" mechanic. You do realise that this item can be used only five times per day? It cannot "completely replace" the Cleric. Very poor choice of comparator. Going down this route it would be better to look at the total number of hp healed per day. It's very dificult to get a resonable estimate of how many hp the proposed ring would heal, but 3 people per activation for the full 160hp each gives 450. Multiplied by 5 (the number of activations) gives 2,250hp. The Ring of Regeneration worn by a 25th level cleric heals a maximum of 600hp per day. 600 / 2,250 =/= 1,080. Not nearly. Let's be harsh and say that the Heal ring is four times as effective at healing as the Ring of Regeneration. 4 * 90,000 = 360,000. I also think that you are not applying the final step of the process - the one which says the DM should look at the calculated price and determine what level of play the price would make the ring suitable for, having regard to the wealth-by-level guidelines, and then adjust it accordingly. A price of 360k would make it viable (<50% of wealth guidelines) for a character partway through 19th level. A price of 405k would put it at 20th-21st. (Rings are never an innapropriate body slot so there would be no doubling). Your suggested 975 million... well I'm not sure exactly when it becomes viable, but it's certainly somewhere in the mid 100-levels. I'm sorry, but to such characters this would be a trinket. Something to use after a battle to restore a fraction of their hp. I don't think I'd want the item available sub-epic, so I'd want to set the price at around ½million gp, that being just over the wealth guideline for a 21st level character. So by DM fiat, I'd price it at 540k - double the price of a ring at CL15. The higher caster level has ne real effect on the game. Where are you getting this 5/day? I got the impression he wanted it at will. Either way the rest of your points are valid.
mathiu 12-05-06, 10:56 AM	I do not allow items such as these in my games as it allows low-level parties to ignore the HP penalties from multiple combats. Otherwise one could have an item of cure minor wounds an unlimited number of times per day for a simple drop in the bucket, which would more than suffice for around the first 10 levels (1 min / 10hp restored derived from 1 hp per 6-second round). As it is, the ring would be powerful, but far from truly broken at Epic levels.
Ellone 12-05-06, 11:23 AM	150 is the max for a heal spell, mass heal is a 9th level spell and is limited to 250hp. note than heal makes a bit more than restoring hp. extracted from srd, heal description: It immediately ends any and all of the following adverse conditions affecting the Target: ability damage, blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, feebleminded, insanity, nauseated, sickened, stunned, and poisoned. also note than this is equivalent to a mass harm spell for undead. and the range is 85 feet by level 25 probably enough to affet the whole party and most follower with each use.
Merestil Haye 12-05-06, 12:38 PM	Where are you getting this 5/day? I got the impression he wanted it at will. Either way the rest of your points are valid.The OP stated he wanted to use the command word activated formula. This does not assume an unlimited number of activations per day. It assumes five, and then modifes the cost on a pro-rata basis. At least, that's always been my interpretation of the cost tables. 150 is the max for a heal spell, mass heal is a 9th level spell and is limited to 250hp.:banghead: Didn't think to check Mass Heal. Oh well... In that case we're looking at 405k, and the Forge Epic Ring feat, which can't be taken until 32nd level. and the range is 85 feet by level 25 probably enough to affet the whole party and most follower with each use.Another good point. But with the number of activations being limited, then the caster has to choose when to use it carefully; my earlier post was based on the assumption that it could be used postcombat and carefully planned. Taking this into account, I think we'd be looking at something like 1.2 million; say 1,215,000gp? Viable at 26th level but not affordable until around 30th.
risner 12-05-06, 12:50 PM	Where are you getting this 5/day? I got the impression he wanted it at will. Either way the rest of your points are valid. I priced it at will, not 5/day. 5/day sounds like 500,000 gp is fair. Unlimited at will I stand by the 1 billion price, simply because I don't think the item should exist.
Merestil Haye 12-05-06, 01:00 PM	I priced it at will, not 5/day. 5/day sounds like 500,000 gp is fair. Unlimited at will I stand by the 1 billion price, simply because I don't think the item should exist.I'd probably go along with that; sorry, I didn't realise you were pricing it as unlimited. I don't think you've accounted for the action cost to use the ring, but that's another issue.
Witch 12-05-06, 02:41 PM	I priced it at will, not 5/day. 5/day sounds like 500,000 gp is fair. Unlimited at will I stand by the 1 billion price, simply because I don't think the item should exist. Then say it shouldn't exist. On my account, I say there's no reason why it shouldn't exist, and I say that a billion gold pieces for that item is abomination.
Nezkrul 12-05-06, 04:32 PM	Then say it shouldn't exist. On my account, I say there's no reason why it shouldn't exist, and I say that a billion gold pieces for that item is abomination. because any and all living creatures with an ounce of power and brains would want such an item for its power. (unlimited) 5/day is fair 500,000 gp in my mind as well. I thought the OP wanted an at will unlimited use item.
Witch 12-05-06, 04:35 PM	because any and all living creatures with an ounce of power and brains would want such an item for its power. (unlimited) No, those that are weak enough for the item to be more than "fast-healing-that-requires-an-action" will all want it, and not be able to take it. Kind of like they'd all want a +6 vorpal longsword. It's just that, those with more power than that, such as a level 30th level character, will not always want that item. In general, it will not benefit him.
savant_warlord13 12-05-06, 04:39 PM	The common sense rule says that all healing must have limited uses, although the limit could be per day.
Witch 12-05-06, 04:45 PM	The common sense rule says that all healing must have limited uses, although the limit could be per day. Really? Cure Serious Wounds (Sp) Eight workers together can heal a creature’s wounds as though using the cure serious wounds spell (caster level 7th). This is a full-round action for all eight workers. Note no limitation on uses. Spell-Like Abilities At will—aid, charm monster (DC 17), color spray (DC 14), comprehend languages, continual flame, cure light wounds (DC 14), dancing lights, detect evil, detect thoughts (DC 15), disguise self, dispel magic, hold monster (DC 18), greater invisibility (self only), major image (DC 16), see invisibility, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only); 1/day—chain lightning (DC 19), prismatic spray (DC 20), wall of force. Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. Spell-Like Abilities At will—chain lightning (DC 23), charm monster (DC 21), cure critical wounds (DC 21), fire storm (DC 24), greater dispel magic, hold monster (DC 22), invisibility, invisibility purge, levitate, persistent image (DC 22); 3/day—etherealness, word of chaos (DC 22), summon nature’s ally IX; 1/day—gate, maze, meteor swarm (DC 26). Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Farcaster 12-05-06, 08:48 PM	The ring cannot restore, resurrect, or even buff. It does not replace a cleric. 810,000 for one person to activate a ring every round at epic levels? Not to mention that you are one dispell or MDJ from loosing your healer if you rely on this ring. Saavy villians would surely recognize this weakness and take advantage of it.
Seerow 12-05-06, 08:59 PM	Witch, just don't bother with this argument. I was told earlier on this forum that a CLW at will item is an epic artifact, worth millions of gold.
Gnarl 12-06-06, 03:43 AM	I have to agree with Witch on this one. Be very careful not to apply non epic logic to epic games. CL 25 is good enough to make this item an epic item so we are talking about epic items. You should consult the specialists on the epic boards. They really have good advice on these issues.
CryoSilver 12-06-06, 04:15 PM	Witch, just don't bother with this argument. I was told earlier on this forum that a CLW at will item is an epic artifact, worth millions of gold. LMAO!! Rapid Healing This ring grants a living wearer fast healing 3. It must be worn for 24 hours before its powers activate, and if removed it will not function again until it has been worn for 24 hours by the same individual. Caster Level: 20th; Prerequisites: Forge Ring, Forge Epic Ring, regenerate; Market Price: 300,000 gp. Even if you bought one for every member of the party 4 people), that's only 1.2 million for an item that's just as good (heals less than CLW, but doesn't require an action), and in factnets you 12 hp per round, dispersed throughout the party.
Witch 12-06-06, 06:29 PM	Perhaps it might be more than 400k. But it's not "millions". Aside from that, I'd never buy that ring.