CL limits to creating magical weapons?!? [Archive] - Wizards Community

CL limits to creating magical weapons?!? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
telldel
12-18-06, 11:06 PM Okay. My wizard is level 6, and he would REALLY like to make some cool magical weapons for the party. He has the Craft Magical Arms and Armor feat.

Can he create a +1 flaming sword? Or is the caster level restriction stopping him from doing this?

The way I understand it, I can now make +2 magical weapons. The flaming ability is equal to adding +1 to the +1 weapon, but there is a CL listed in the description...

If somebody could clarify, I would appreciate it.

WHO YA GONNA TELL?

TELLDEL
mlasater
12-18-06, 11:10 PM Additional properities have CL requirements - in the case of flaming its is CL 10. A 6th level caster could make a +2 sword, but not a +1 flaming sword. The CL requirement for enchantment bonus (CL of 3 times plus) only applies to the enchantment bonus, not additional properties.

So, a 10th level caster could make a +3 flaming sword.
risner
12-19-06, 08:42 AM A 6th level caster could make a +2 sword, but not a +1 flaming sword.

False.

You have to prepare and expend one of the following flame blade, flame strike, or fireball for each 1,000 gp of the sword, but if you can do that at 6th caster level with the classes you have, you can make that +1 flaming sword.

DMG p224 for flaming

As always, ignore CL for restrictions.
Tony Vargas
12-19-06, 01:30 PM CL is not a prerequisite unless it is listed as one. All the items in the DMG have CLs listed /before/ the prerequisites - this is the default CL of a found item of that type - a few have CL requirements, and they're explicitly listed as such (examples include the Dwarven Thrower and Ioun Stones). You can make a flaming sword as a sixth level wizard, as long as you know the right spell (fireball). You can even make a +2 flaming sword if you have the cash and exp to do so (the level/3 bit is only for the enhancement bonus, not for equivalents). Your magic sword will be CL 6 though, instead of the listed default, meaning it'll be easier to supress with a Dispel Magic than a 'typical' flaming sword.
Zaistars69
12-19-06, 03:03 PM CL is not a prerequisite unless it is listed as one. All the items in the DMG have CLs listed /before/ the prerequisites - this is the default CL of a found item of that type - a few have CL requirements, and they're explicitly listed as such (examples include the Dwarven Thrower and Ioun Stones). You can make a flaming sword as a sixth level wizard, as long as you know the right spell (fireball). You can even make a +2 flaming sword if you have the cash and exp to do so (the level/3 bit is only for the enhancement bonus, not for equivalents). Your magic sword will be CL 6 though, instead of the listed default, meaning it'll be easier to supress with a Dispel Magic than a 'typical' flaming sword.

negativo good buddy. What you stated does not apply to weapons and armor. the CL on special abilities is in fact a prereq. Page 221 of the DMG spells this out. None of the special abilities in the DMG have the word Prereq in it. Going by your logic my 3rd level wizard buddy could make the +1 longsword Flaming, keen, shocking burst, vorpal sword without feats or spells.
Repeat, everything after the School information and before the Price in the weapon/armor special abilities are prereques, as in you have to have some method of meeting these.
CreepingCharly
12-19-06, 03:25 PM I was under the assumption that it worked as a blend of the previous posts:

The CL in front of the special ability is not a pre-req, it is just the caster level of a typical one for Dispel Magic attempts and so on.
All you need to be able to create the flaming sword is the Craft Arms and Armor feat and the ability to cast the pre-requisite spell (or know someone who can for the entire process)
You would only be able to create a +1 Flaming sword as a lvl 6 wizard. The +1/3lvls (taking people's word for this as I can't remember) is for the total equivalent modifier of the weapon.

I don't have my books with me, but I'm pretty sure that's how it works.

Hope That Helps,
Charly
risner
12-19-06, 05:02 PM negativo good buddy. What you stated does not apply to weapons and armor.

When the DMG was written, CL was a pre-req. The Errata changed CL from a pre-req to a "this is what it is when you find one" info field. The only ones that are require say "Caster Level X" or "Character Level X", and since Flaming doesn't say either, the CL listed isn't a pre-req.

Also DMG p221 says that the Caster Level minimum for making weapons and armour is the higher of the two enchantment bonuses. The one based on the +1 to the armour or the one based on the ability bonuses whichever is higher. Examples:

+1 flaming is (1 and 1, so 3 and 3 needed)
+2 flaming is (2 and 1, so 6 and 3 needed, so 6)
+1 holy is (1 and 2, so 3 and 6, so 6)
+2 holy is (2 and 2, so 6 and 6)
Nom
12-20-06, 04:39 AM Actually, I've not seen any evidence that the errata was intended to change the rules as opposed to clarifying them.

You've also misapplied pg 221. The CL minimum for making weapons and armour is the "higher of the two caster level requirements". Special abilities do not use their bonus equivalent for pre-reqs, but rather the CL derived from the pre-reqs.

Thus, the minimum CL for flaming could be almost anything from 3 to 9, depending on whether flame blade (Drd 2 => 3), fireball (Sor/Wiz 3 => Wiz 5, Sor 6) or flame strike (Drd 4 => 7, Clr 5 => 9). This interpretation is consistent with the Rules of the Game article and (IMO) both pre- and post-errata DMG pg 215 and 282, but differs from the FAQ interpretation.

For a +1 flaming sword crafted by a wizard who also provides the fireball spell (min CL 5), the min CL is thus 3 or 5, and thus 5.
Omega the Powerfull
12-20-06, 10:55 AM Okay. My wizard is level 6, and he would REALLY like to make some cool magical weapons for the party. He has the Craft Magical Arms and Armor feat.

Can he create a +1 flaming sword? Or is the caster level restriction stopping him from doing this?

The way I understand it, I can now make +2 magical weapons. The flaming ability is equal to adding +1 to the +1 weapon, but there is a CL listed in the description...

If somebody could clarify, I would appreciate it.

WHO YA GONNA TELL?

TELLDEL

Don't forget the basic - you ot to have the craft magic arms and armor:D
Zaistars69
12-20-06, 12:16 PM When the DMG was written, CL was a pre-req. The Errata changed CL from a pre-req to a "this is what it is when you find one" info field. The only ones that are require say "Caster Level X" or "Character Level X", and since Flaming doesn't say either, the CL listed isn't a pre-req.

Also DMG p221 says that the Caster Level minimum for making weapons and armour is the higher of the two enchantment bonuses. The one based on the +1 to the armour or the one based on the ability bonuses whichever is higher. Examples:

+1 flaming is (1 and 1, so 3 and 3 needed)
+2 flaming is (2 and 1, so 6 and 3 needed, so 6)
+1 holy is (1 and 2, so 3 and 6, so 6)
+2 holy is (2 and 2, so 6 and 6)

No it says in plain english that the higher of the two caster level requirements Must be MET.
--From the SRD (same text as DMG)
---Caster Level for Weapons: The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.---

Plus its silly to think of special abilities like you did because it specifically says in the book that the Plus of a special ability is only to be used for pricing. Reread the paragraph carefully, or just with a basic understanding of the english language. The only thing you got right was that yes you have to meet the highest of the two caster level requirements.
Damionte
12-20-06, 03:02 PM I doubt telldel has the feats anyway.
Thomas_Covenant
12-20-06, 03:11 PM Actually, I've not seen any evidence that the errata was intended to change the rules as opposed to clarifying them.This should be at the beginning of every errata.
This is the intention, errata is for major typos, grammar errors, or full brainfarts that disrupt the balance and/or enjoyment of the game.
Errata trumps all, except other Errata.Unless stated specifically, items never have minimum caster level as a prerequisite. (The "CL" entry is the default caster level of the item, not a requirement for creation.)
A 3rd level Wizard with Craft Wondrous Item could create a harp of charming (even though he's not high-enough level to cast suggestion, a prerequisite of creation), as long as he had access to the suggestion spell during creation (such as from a scroll of another character).And yes, the FAQ isn't as strong as the Errata, you are free the evaluate the FAQ's validity as you see fit, but there's a ruling for you.
Vegepygmy
12-20-06, 04:04 PM No it says in plain english that the higher of the two caster level requirements Must be MET.Yes, but here's the key: what is the CL requirement for the flaming special ability?

Per the errata, the CL requirement for the flaming special ability is "that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given." In other words, whatever CL you need to cast flame blade, flame strike, or fireball.

A 6th level wizard who knows fireball can craft a +1 flaming sword. He can craft a +2 flaming sword. He cannot craft a +3 flaming sword until he is 9th level.
striderII
12-20-06, 04:16 PM I doubt telldel has the feats anyway.

Yep, because at 6th Level, he wouldn't have Craft Magic Arms and Armour and come here asking about it.

Nope, my players are routinely rampaging morons.

[/sarcasm]

strider
Zaistars69
12-20-06, 04:48 PM Yes, but here's the key: what is the CL requirement for the flaming special ability?

Per the errata, the CL requirement for the flaming special ability is "that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given." In other words, whatever CL you need to cast flame blade, flame strike, or fireball.

A 6th level wizard who knows fireball can craft a +1 flaming sword. He can craft a +2 flaming sword. He cannot craft a +3 flaming sword until he is 9th level.

For other Items I would agree with you. But with weapons and armor it has a section specifically for caster level that calls the CL for special abilities a requirement. No other section in the DMG does that. that's what leads me to believe that the CL for special abilities on weapons and armor must be met in addition to other requirements.
Thomas_Covenant
12-20-06, 05:08 PM For other Items I would agree with you. But with weapons and armor it has a section specifically for caster level that calls the CL for special abilities a requirement. No other section in the DMG does that. that's what leads me to believe that the CL for special abilities on weapons and armor must be met in addition to other requirements.Strangely, your response seems to be stating Vegepygmy's explanation is correct, which it is.CREATING MAGIC ARMOR
To create magic armor, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the armor or the pieces of the armor to be assembled. Armor to be made into magic armor must be masterwork armor, and the masterwork cost is added to the base price to determine final market value. Additional magic supplies costs for the materials are subsumed in the cost for creating the magic armor—half the base price of the item.
Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.Emphasis mine.

The [CL Xth;Prereq A, B, C;other junk] line, "CL" is in no way a prerequisite, it's that simple.
So, most items have no caster level prerequisite of any kind.
Armor (and Weapons, the wording is the same) have an additional "special prerequisite" which must be met, so they are a noteworthy exception.
Nom
12-20-06, 05:26 PM It's a subtle and important distinction (and one missed by the FAQ). Many items have no CL prerequisite, but they do still have a mininum CL, which is the minimum CL required for each pre-req. If your pre-req is a spell with a mininum CL of 5, then your item's creator also must have a minimum CL of 5, regardless of who or what actually provides the spell.
CreepingCharly
12-20-06, 05:29 PM Nope, my players are routinely rampaging morons.

Well, this is the same guy who is asking in another thread how his 6th lvl party can take out a 19th lvl Wizard... :twitch:

If anyone is interested, it's quite a funny read:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=754795

--Charly
Vegepygmy
12-20-06, 05:55 PM For other Items I would agree with you. But with weapons and armor it has a section specifically for caster level that calls the CL for special abilities a requirement.No, it doesn't. It says that the caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description (just as it is for any other magic item). It doesn't say that caster level is a requirement. It then goes on to say that if the weapon has a special ability, you have to meet the caster level requirement (whatever it may be) for that special ability (again, just as you do for any other magic item).

There is a CL requirement; it's just that the CL that's required isn't the one that appears to the right of "CL" in the last paragraph of the special ability description:

Moderate evocation; CL 10th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor and flame blade, flame strike, or fireball; Price +1 bonus.

"10th" is just the default CL; a number the DM can use when he knows nothing at all about who created the item. But it is not a requirement.

The requirement is what the DMG (errata) says: "that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given." In the case of a wizard using fireball as the prerequisite spell, that's CL 5th.
striderII
12-20-06, 07:04 PM Well, this is the same guy who is asking in another thread how his 6th lvl party can take out a 19th lvl Wizard... :twitch:

If anyone is interested, it's quite a funny read:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=754795

--Charly

How, precisely, does that make him a "moron"? I believe that he stated, more than once, that he is trying to plan for the next encounter with this guy - *if* they have one - which will be several levels in the future.

So...no, it isn't his 6th level party taking out a 19th level Wizard....nor, actually, is the target a 19th level Wizard, to be honest (see the stats via the link in that thread; I don't think they're spot on, but pretty close).

In other words....nobody calls my players morons except me (or them, to each other) - get it?

*starts stretching with the baseball bat....*

strider
Damionte
12-20-06, 07:17 PM Yep, because at 6th Level, he wouldn't have Craft Magic Arms and Armour and come here asking about it.

Nope, my players are routinely rampaging morons.

[/sarcasm]

strider

I was kind of implying that, but was trying to be nice about it though. Nothing against you personally; you seem to have a good amount of sense. You're also fiercely loyal to your friends which we can all respect.

Telldel's posts so far have been rather.. hmmm what's a nice way to say it. "Noobish". Nothing wrong with being a noob. We all go through it. Hell even old timers get answers or things wrong. It just seems he could do with a bit more time browsing through the actual rulebooks rather than the forums.
striderII
12-20-06, 07:29 PM I was kind of implying that, but was trying to be nice about it though. Nothing against you personally; you seem to have a good amount of sense.

Thanks - I tend to think so as well. ;)

You're also fiercely loyal to your friends which we can all respect.

You have no idea - and don't get me started on people who have screwed with my immediate family. They've regretted it, let's just put it that way. ;)

Telldel's posts so far have been rather.. hmmm what's a nice way to say it. "Noobish". Nothing wrong with being a noob. We all go through it. Hell even old timers get answers or things wrong. It just seems he could do with a bit more time browsing through the actual rulebooks rather than the forums.

I don't know...sometimes I think he looks through the rulebooks a bit *too* much... *lol*. He certainly looks at certain parts (particularly the various craft rules) much more than I do - but that's likely due to my personal preferences in gaming. To wit: if I can ignore the rule book, and just come up with something reasonable on the fly, I'll do it. Sadly, one of my players now is on the opposite end of the spectrum (not telldel). ;)

strider
Damionte
12-20-06, 07:45 PM Yeah hey you know what. i was probably out of line there anyway. My bad. I'm just annoyed that we didn't get our happy ending from the 19th level wizard thread. I appologise.

Being around the forusm is actually pretty healthy. you get to see how different people rule on different aspects of the game. Helps you re-evaluate things you may or may not be doing right in your own games.

I know I've found a couple of things along the way that I was simply doing wrong in our own games. I've also found things that many feel are the norm here that make no sense and won't have any place in my own games.

You juist don't know until you're exposed to other viewpoints.
striderII
12-20-06, 08:25 PM Yeah hey you know what. i was probably out of line there anyway. My bad. I'm just annoyed that we didn't get our happy ending from the 19th level wizard thread. I appologise.

Being around the forusm is actually pretty healthy. you get to see how different people rule on different aspects of the game. Helps you re-evaluate things you may or may not be doing right in your own games.

I know I've found a couple of things along the way that I was simply doing wrong in our own games. I've also found things that many feel are the norm here that make no sense and won't have any place in my own games.

You juist don't know until you're exposed to other viewpoints.

I see where you're going there. There are quite a few viewpoints that I've seen where I went, "what particular kind of crack are those people on?", and others that were pretty cool.

Of course, I've also gotten in my share of arguments - even outside of katana threads, if you can believe it! Perhaps my most memorable was a 7 page thread that was pretty much just me and this cat from Canada arguing about using a rapier in two hands (this was back in the 3.0 days...and you see that there is now an explicit rule about it. Coincidence?). ;)

Please note that my response to you was sheer sarcasm, in a "hey, dude - think about that a second" rather than a "hey, dude - you're a freakin' idiot". :)

As for the "happy ending", if you want to know how that'll all turn out, and/or the stats for the guy in a roundabout sense, PM me and I'll ease the suspence that must surely be nearly killing you. ;)

strider

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
telldel 12-18-06, 11:06 PM	Okay. My wizard is level 6, and he would REALLY like to make some cool magical weapons for the party. He has the Craft Magical Arms and Armor feat. Can he create a +1 flaming sword? Or is the caster level restriction stopping him from doing this? The way I understand it, I can now make +2 magical weapons. The flaming ability is equal to adding +1 to the +1 weapon, but there is a CL listed in the description... If somebody could clarify, I would appreciate it. WHO YA GONNA TELL? TELLDEL
mlasater 12-18-06, 11:10 PM	Additional properities have CL requirements - in the case of flaming its is CL 10. A 6th level caster could make a +2 sword, but not a +1 flaming sword. The CL requirement for enchantment bonus (CL of 3 times plus) only applies to the enchantment bonus, not additional properties. So, a 10th level caster could make a +3 flaming sword.
risner 12-19-06, 08:42 AM	A 6th level caster could make a +2 sword, but not a +1 flaming sword. False. You have to prepare and expend one of the following flame blade, flame strike, or fireball for each 1,000 gp of the sword, but if you can do that at 6th caster level with the classes you have, you can make that +1 flaming sword. DMG p224 for flaming As always, ignore CL for restrictions.
Tony Vargas 12-19-06, 01:30 PM	CL is not a prerequisite unless it is listed as one. All the items in the DMG have CLs listed /before/ the prerequisites - this is the default CL of a found item of that type - a few have CL requirements, and they're explicitly listed as such (examples include the Dwarven Thrower and Ioun Stones). You can make a flaming sword as a sixth level wizard, as long as you know the right spell (fireball). You can even make a +2 flaming sword if you have the cash and exp to do so (the level/3 bit is only for the enhancement bonus, not for equivalents). Your magic sword will be CL 6 though, instead of the listed default, meaning it'll be easier to supress with a Dispel Magic than a 'typical' flaming sword.
Zaistars69 12-19-06, 03:03 PM	CL is not a prerequisite unless it is listed as one. All the items in the DMG have CLs listed /before/ the prerequisites - this is the default CL of a found item of that type - a few have CL requirements, and they're explicitly listed as such (examples include the Dwarven Thrower and Ioun Stones). You can make a flaming sword as a sixth level wizard, as long as you know the right spell (fireball). You can even make a +2 flaming sword if you have the cash and exp to do so (the level/3 bit is only for the enhancement bonus, not for equivalents). Your magic sword will be CL 6 though, instead of the listed default, meaning it'll be easier to supress with a Dispel Magic than a 'typical' flaming sword. negativo good buddy. What you stated does not apply to weapons and armor. the CL on special abilities is in fact a prereq. Page 221 of the DMG spells this out. None of the special abilities in the DMG have the word Prereq in it. Going by your logic my 3rd level wizard buddy could make the +1 longsword Flaming, keen, shocking burst, vorpal sword without feats or spells. Repeat, everything after the School information and before the Price in the weapon/armor special abilities are prereques, as in you have to have some method of meeting these.
CreepingCharly 12-19-06, 03:25 PM	I was under the assumption that it worked as a blend of the previous posts: The CL in front of the special ability is not a pre-req, it is just the caster level of a typical one for Dispel Magic attempts and so on. All you need to be able to create the flaming sword is the Craft Arms and Armor feat and the ability to cast the pre-requisite spell (or know someone who can for the entire process) You would only be able to create a +1 Flaming sword as a lvl 6 wizard. The +1/3lvls (taking people's word for this as I can't remember) is for the total equivalent modifier of the weapon. I don't have my books with me, but I'm pretty sure that's how it works. Hope That Helps, Charly
risner 12-19-06, 05:02 PM	negativo good buddy. What you stated does not apply to weapons and armor. When the DMG was written, CL was a pre-req. The Errata changed CL from a pre-req to a "this is what it is when you find one" info field. The only ones that are require say "Caster Level X" or "Character Level X", and since Flaming doesn't say either, the CL listed isn't a pre-req. Also DMG p221 says that the Caster Level minimum for making weapons and armour is the higher of the two enchantment bonuses. The one based on the +1 to the armour or the one based on the ability bonuses whichever is higher. Examples: +1 flaming is (1 and 1, so 3 and 3 needed) +2 flaming is (2 and 1, so 6 and 3 needed, so 6) +1 holy is (1 and 2, so 3 and 6, so 6) +2 holy is (2 and 2, so 6 and 6)
Nom 12-20-06, 04:39 AM	Actually, I've not seen any evidence that the errata was intended to change the rules as opposed to clarifying them. You've also misapplied pg 221. The CL minimum for making weapons and armour is the "higher of the two caster level requirements". Special abilities do not use their bonus equivalent for pre-reqs, but rather the CL derived from the pre-reqs. Thus, the minimum CL for flaming could be almost anything from 3 to 9, depending on whether flame blade (Drd 2 => 3), fireball (Sor/Wiz 3 => Wiz 5, Sor 6) or flame strike (Drd 4 => 7, Clr 5 => 9). This interpretation is consistent with the Rules of the Game article and (IMO) both pre- and post-errata DMG pg 215 and 282, but differs from the FAQ interpretation. For a +1 flaming sword crafted by a wizard who also provides the fireball spell (min CL 5), the min CL is thus 3 or 5, and thus 5.
Omega the Powerfull 12-20-06, 10:55 AM	Okay. My wizard is level 6, and he would REALLY like to make some cool magical weapons for the party. He has the Craft Magical Arms and Armor feat. Can he create a +1 flaming sword? Or is the caster level restriction stopping him from doing this? The way I understand it, I can now make +2 magical weapons. The flaming ability is equal to adding +1 to the +1 weapon, but there is a CL listed in the description... If somebody could clarify, I would appreciate it. WHO YA GONNA TELL? TELLDEL Don't forget the basic - you ot to have the craft magic arms and armor:D
Zaistars69 12-20-06, 12:16 PM	When the DMG was written, CL was a pre-req. The Errata changed CL from a pre-req to a "this is what it is when you find one" info field. The only ones that are require say "Caster Level X" or "Character Level X", and since Flaming doesn't say either, the CL listed isn't a pre-req. Also DMG p221 says that the Caster Level minimum for making weapons and armour is the higher of the two enchantment bonuses. The one based on the +1 to the armour or the one based on the ability bonuses whichever is higher. Examples: +1 flaming is (1 and 1, so 3 and 3 needed) +2 flaming is (2 and 1, so 6 and 3 needed, so 6) +1 holy is (1 and 2, so 3 and 6, so 6) +2 holy is (2 and 2, so 6 and 6) No it says in plain english that the higher of the two caster level requirements Must be MET. --From the SRD (same text as DMG) ---Caster Level for Weapons: The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.--- Plus its silly to think of special abilities like you did because it specifically says in the book that the Plus of a special ability is only to be used for pricing. Reread the paragraph carefully, or just with a basic understanding of the english language. The only thing you got right was that yes you have to meet the highest of the two caster level requirements.
Damionte 12-20-06, 03:02 PM	I doubt telldel has the feats anyway.
Thomas_Covenant 12-20-06, 03:11 PM	Actually, I've not seen any evidence that the errata was intended to change the rules as opposed to clarifying them.This should be at the beginning of every errata. This is the intention, errata is for major typos, grammar errors, or full brainfarts that disrupt the balance and/or enjoyment of the game. Errata trumps all, except other Errata.Unless stated specifically, items never have minimum caster level as a prerequisite. (The "CL" entry is the default caster level of the item, not a requirement for creation.) A 3rd level Wizard with Craft Wondrous Item could create a harp of charming (even though he's not high-enough level to cast suggestion, a prerequisite of creation), as long as he had access to the suggestion spell during creation (such as from a scroll of another character).And yes, the FAQ isn't as strong as the Errata, you are free the evaluate the FAQ's validity as you see fit, but there's a ruling for you.
Vegepygmy 12-20-06, 04:04 PM	No it says in plain english that the higher of the two caster level requirements Must be MET.Yes, but here's the key: what is the CL requirement for the flaming special ability? Per the errata, the CL requirement for the flaming special ability is "that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given." In other words, whatever CL you need to cast flame blade, flame strike, or fireball. A 6th level wizard who knows fireball can craft a +1 flaming sword. He can craft a +2 flaming sword. He cannot craft a +3 flaming sword until he is 9th level.
striderII 12-20-06, 04:16 PM	I doubt telldel has the feats anyway. Yep, because at 6th Level, he wouldn't have Craft Magic Arms and Armour and come here asking about it. Nope, my players are routinely rampaging morons. [/sarcasm] strider
Zaistars69 12-20-06, 04:48 PM	Yes, but here's the key: what is the CL requirement for the flaming special ability? Per the errata, the CL requirement for the flaming special ability is "that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given." In other words, whatever CL you need to cast flame blade, flame strike, or fireball. A 6th level wizard who knows fireball can craft a +1 flaming sword. He can craft a +2 flaming sword. He cannot craft a +3 flaming sword until he is 9th level. For other Items I would agree with you. But with weapons and armor it has a section specifically for caster level that calls the CL for special abilities a requirement. No other section in the DMG does that. that's what leads me to believe that the CL for special abilities on weapons and armor must be met in addition to other requirements.
Thomas_Covenant 12-20-06, 05:08 PM	For other Items I would agree with you. But with weapons and armor it has a section specifically for caster level that calls the CL for special abilities a requirement. No other section in the DMG does that. that's what leads me to believe that the CL for special abilities on weapons and armor must be met in addition to other requirements.Strangely, your response seems to be stating Vegepygmy's explanation is correct, which it is.CREATING MAGIC ARMOR To create magic armor, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools. He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the armor or the pieces of the armor to be assembled. Armor to be made into magic armor must be masterwork armor, and the masterwork cost is added to the base price to determine final market value. Additional magic supplies costs for the materials are subsumed in the cost for creating the magic armor—half the base price of the item. Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.Emphasis mine. The [CL Xth;Prereq A, B, C;other junk] line, "CL" is in no way a prerequisite, it's that simple. So, most items have no caster level prerequisite of any kind. Armor (and Weapons, the wording is the same) have an additional "special prerequisite" which must be met, so they are a noteworthy exception.
Nom 12-20-06, 05:26 PM	It's a subtle and important distinction (and one missed by the FAQ). Many items have no CL prerequisite, but they do still have a mininum CL, which is the minimum CL required for each pre-req. If your pre-req is a spell with a mininum CL of 5, then your item's creator also must have a minimum CL of 5, regardless of who or what actually provides the spell.
CreepingCharly 12-20-06, 05:29 PM	Nope, my players are routinely rampaging morons. Well, this is the same guy who is asking in another thread how his 6th lvl party can take out a 19th lvl Wizard... :twitch: If anyone is interested, it's quite a funny read: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=754795 --Charly
Vegepygmy 12-20-06, 05:55 PM	For other Items I would agree with you. But with weapons and armor it has a section specifically for caster level that calls the CL for special abilities a requirement.No, it doesn't. It says that the caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description (just as it is for any other magic item). It doesn't say that caster level is a requirement. It then goes on to say that if the weapon has a special ability, you have to meet the caster level requirement (whatever it may be) for that special ability (again, just as you do for any other magic item). There is a CL requirement; it's just that the CL that's required isn't the one that appears to the right of "CL" in the last paragraph of the special ability description: Moderate evocation; CL 10th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor and flame blade, flame strike, or fireball; Price +1 bonus. "10th" is just the default CL; a number the DM can use when he knows nothing at all about who created the item. But it is not a requirement. The requirement is what the DMG (errata) says: "that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given." In the case of a wizard using fireball as the prerequisite spell, that's CL 5th.
striderII 12-20-06, 07:04 PM	Well, this is the same guy who is asking in another thread how his 6th lvl party can take out a 19th lvl Wizard... :twitch: If anyone is interested, it's quite a funny read: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=754795 --Charly How, precisely, does that make him a "moron"? I believe that he stated, more than once, that he is trying to plan for the next encounter with this guy - if they have one - which will be several levels in the future. So...no, it isn't his 6th level party taking out a 19th level Wizard....nor, actually, is the target a 19th level Wizard, to be honest (see the stats via the link in that thread; I don't think they're spot on, but pretty close). In other words....nobody calls my players morons except me (or them, to each other) - get it? starts stretching with the baseball bat.... strider
Damionte 12-20-06, 07:17 PM	Yep, because at 6th Level, he wouldn't have Craft Magic Arms and Armour and come here asking about it. Nope, my players are routinely rampaging morons. [/sarcasm] strider I was kind of implying that, but was trying to be nice about it though. Nothing against you personally; you seem to have a good amount of sense. You're also fiercely loyal to your friends which we can all respect. Telldel's posts so far have been rather.. hmmm what's a nice way to say it. "Noobish". Nothing wrong with being a noob. We all go through it. Hell even old timers get answers or things wrong. It just seems he could do with a bit more time browsing through the actual rulebooks rather than the forums.
striderII 12-20-06, 07:29 PM	I was kind of implying that, but was trying to be nice about it though. Nothing against you personally; you seem to have a good amount of sense. Thanks - I tend to think so as well. ;) You're also fiercely loyal to your friends which we can all respect. You have no idea - and don't get me started on people who have screwed with my immediate family. They've regretted it, let's just put it that way. ;) Telldel's posts so far have been rather.. hmmm what's a nice way to say it. "Noobish". Nothing wrong with being a noob. We all go through it. Hell even old timers get answers or things wrong. It just seems he could do with a bit more time browsing through the actual rulebooks rather than the forums. I don't know...sometimes I think he looks through the rulebooks a bit too much... lol. He certainly looks at certain parts (particularly the various craft rules) much more than I do - but that's likely due to my personal preferences in gaming. To wit: if I can ignore the rule book, and just come up with something reasonable on the fly, I'll do it. Sadly, one of my players now is on the opposite end of the spectrum (not telldel). ;) strider
Damionte 12-20-06, 07:45 PM	Yeah hey you know what. i was probably out of line there anyway. My bad. I'm just annoyed that we didn't get our happy ending from the 19th level wizard thread. I appologise. Being around the forusm is actually pretty healthy. you get to see how different people rule on different aspects of the game. Helps you re-evaluate things you may or may not be doing right in your own games. I know I've found a couple of things along the way that I was simply doing wrong in our own games. I've also found things that many feel are the norm here that make no sense and won't have any place in my own games. You juist don't know until you're exposed to other viewpoints.
striderII 12-20-06, 08:25 PM	Yeah hey you know what. i was probably out of line there anyway. My bad. I'm just annoyed that we didn't get our happy ending from the 19th level wizard thread. I appologise. Being around the forusm is actually pretty healthy. you get to see how different people rule on different aspects of the game. Helps you re-evaluate things you may or may not be doing right in your own games. I know I've found a couple of things along the way that I was simply doing wrong in our own games. I've also found things that many feel are the norm here that make no sense and won't have any place in my own games. You juist don't know until you're exposed to other viewpoints. I see where you're going there. There are quite a few viewpoints that I've seen where I went, "what particular kind of crack are those people on?", and others that were pretty cool. Of course, I've also gotten in my share of arguments - even outside of katana threads, if you can believe it! Perhaps my most memorable was a 7 page thread that was pretty much just me and this cat from Canada arguing about using a rapier in two hands (this was back in the 3.0 days...and you see that there is now an explicit rule about it. Coincidence?). ;) Please note that my response to you was sheer sarcasm, in a "hey, dude - think about that a second" rather than a "hey, dude - you're a freakin' idiot". :) As for the "happy ending", if you want to know how that'll all turn out, and/or the stats for the guy in a roundabout sense, PM me and I'll ease the suspence that must surely be nearly killing you. ;) strider