Clarification on grapple: Attack vs. Damage. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Clarification on grapple: Attack vs. Damage. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
simply_idiot
12-25-06, 10:20 PM In the book, it says you may attack with a light weapon or unarmed/natural attack with a -4 on attack. It also says, under damaging your opponent, that you deal nonlethal damage as an unarmed attack after a succesful grapple check.

My question is: Are those two different ways to damage your opponent, or do you deal nonleathal damage even with your dagger?

Another question I have is, since your grappled opponent is denied his dex, can he be sneak attacked?

Third question is: Would a monk recieve the -4 to attack for the "attacking your opponent" portion?
ShinAkuma2
12-25-06, 11:19 PM 1) You can do either one. Attack with a weapon (light, natural, or unarmed, -4 penalty), or grapple for non-lethal unarmed strike damage.

If you hit with a manufactured or natural weapon, it does normal lethal damage unless you take the additional -4 to make it non-lethal. I wouldn't recommend that.

If you have Improved Unarmed Strike, you can grapple for lethal or non-lethal damage with a grapple check, your choice.

2) He is denied his dex to everyone outside of the grapple. If you grapple him, you can't sneak attack him. Have someone else do it.

3) Yes, of course. That applies to everyone.
simply_idiot
12-26-06, 12:27 AM I thank you, kind Sir or Madam.
WolfHati
12-26-06, 04:01 AM However if you pin an opponent, they are considered immobile, so if you manage to attack them, I would assume that sneak attack damage would apply. This would, however, require iterative attacks, since the first one must be used to maintain the pin.
Nom
12-26-06, 09:28 PM The rules explicitly say "immobile but not helpless", so no sneak attack.
Howland Reed
12-26-06, 10:05 PM Check your PH, p. 151, "Attack roll modifiers". I quote:

"Rogues can sneak attack helpless or pinned defenders"

Personally, I don't know why grappled foes don't lose their dex vs. you as well...I kinda like the idea of a guy wrestling with an opponent and stabbing him in the kidneys...I mean, you're already taking a -4, and rogues aren't usually great grapplers, it'd hardly be game-breaking.

EDIT: just checked the grappling section. It specifically says that once you're pinning an opponent, you can't draw or use a weapon. So you can't sneak attack someone you're grappling. (Again, which makes no sense to me, but that's how the rules lie...).
A neat little tidbit, though, is that you CAN still use an opponent's weapon against him...so technically, you COULD sneak attack him with his own weapon, if it's light (driving your foe's own dagger into his heart...classy...)
ShinAkuma2
12-27-06, 12:08 AM EDIT: just checked the grappling section. It specifically says that once you're pinning an opponent, you can't draw or use a weapon. So you can't sneak attack someone you're grappling. (Again, which makes no sense to me, but that's how the rules lie...)

I don't know if it's correct by RAW, but if it were my game, I'd say your grapple checks to damage a pinned opponent could Sneak Attack.

Think of it as a really nasty submission hold.
Nom
12-27-06, 05:51 PM "Rogues can sneak attack helpless or pinned defenders"Which is entirely true, but not if the rogue is in the grapple.
ShinAkuma2
12-27-06, 07:05 PM Which is entirely true, but not if the rogue is in the grapple.

Source for that?

It says that a grappled opponent loses his dex to AC to everyone outside the grapple, but pinning makes no such distinction. There's nothing to lead one to believe that a pinned opponent retains his dex to AC against the pinner.
Nom
12-27-06, 09:22 PM PH pg 157: "While you're pinned, you take a -4 to AC against opponents other than the one pinning you". It doesn't say that you lose Dex to AC, and it explicitly calls out that the pinner doesn't gain the benefits of this.

Actually, there are several consistency problems between table 8-6 and the grappling rules.
ShinAkuma2
12-28-06, 12:27 AM PH pg 157: "While you're pinned, you take a -4 to AC against opponents other than the one pinning you". It doesn't say that you lose Dex to AC, and it explicitly calls out that the pinner doesn't gain the benefits of this.

It also says you are immobilized. There's your 0 dex.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
simply_idiot 12-25-06, 10:20 PM	In the book, it says you may attack with a light weapon or unarmed/natural attack with a -4 on attack. It also says, under damaging your opponent, that you deal nonlethal damage as an unarmed attack after a succesful grapple check. My question is: Are those two different ways to damage your opponent, or do you deal nonleathal damage even with your dagger? Another question I have is, since your grappled opponent is denied his dex, can he be sneak attacked? Third question is: Would a monk recieve the -4 to attack for the "attacking your opponent" portion?
ShinAkuma2 12-25-06, 11:19 PM	1) You can do either one. Attack with a weapon (light, natural, or unarmed, -4 penalty), or grapple for non-lethal unarmed strike damage. If you hit with a manufactured or natural weapon, it does normal lethal damage unless you take the additional -4 to make it non-lethal. I wouldn't recommend that. If you have Improved Unarmed Strike, you can grapple for lethal or non-lethal damage with a grapple check, your choice. 2) He is denied his dex to everyone outside of the grapple. If you grapple him, you can't sneak attack him. Have someone else do it. 3) Yes, of course. That applies to everyone.
simply_idiot 12-26-06, 12:27 AM	I thank you, kind Sir or Madam.
WolfHati 12-26-06, 04:01 AM	However if you pin an opponent, they are considered immobile, so if you manage to attack them, I would assume that sneak attack damage would apply. This would, however, require iterative attacks, since the first one must be used to maintain the pin.
Nom 12-26-06, 09:28 PM	The rules explicitly say "immobile but not helpless", so no sneak attack.
Howland Reed 12-26-06, 10:05 PM	Check your PH, p. 151, "Attack roll modifiers". I quote: "Rogues can sneak attack helpless or pinned defenders" Personally, I don't know why grappled foes don't lose their dex vs. you as well...I kinda like the idea of a guy wrestling with an opponent and stabbing him in the kidneys...I mean, you're already taking a -4, and rogues aren't usually great grapplers, it'd hardly be game-breaking. EDIT: just checked the grappling section. It specifically says that once you're pinning an opponent, you can't draw or use a weapon. So you can't sneak attack someone you're grappling. (Again, which makes no sense to me, but that's how the rules lie...). A neat little tidbit, though, is that you CAN still use an opponent's weapon against him...so technically, you COULD sneak attack him with his own weapon, if it's light (driving your foe's own dagger into his heart...classy...)
ShinAkuma2 12-27-06, 12:08 AM	EDIT: just checked the grappling section. It specifically says that once you're pinning an opponent, you can't draw or use a weapon. So you can't sneak attack someone you're grappling. (Again, which makes no sense to me, but that's how the rules lie...) I don't know if it's correct by RAW, but if it were my game, I'd say your grapple checks to damage a pinned opponent could Sneak Attack. Think of it as a really nasty submission hold.
Nom 12-27-06, 05:51 PM	"Rogues can sneak attack helpless or pinned defenders"Which is entirely true, but not if the rogue is in the grapple.
ShinAkuma2 12-27-06, 07:05 PM	Which is entirely true, but not if the rogue is in the grapple. Source for that? It says that a grappled opponent loses his dex to AC to everyone outside the grapple, but pinning makes no such distinction. There's nothing to lead one to believe that a pinned opponent retains his dex to AC against the pinner.
Nom 12-27-06, 09:22 PM	PH pg 157: "While you're pinned, you take a -4 to AC against opponents other than the one pinning you". It doesn't say that you lose Dex to AC, and it explicitly calls out that the pinner doesn't gain the benefits of this. Actually, there are several consistency problems between table 8-6 and the grappling rules.
ShinAkuma2 12-28-06, 12:27 AM	PH pg 157: "While you're pinned, you take a -4 to AC against opponents other than the one pinning you". It doesn't say that you lose Dex to AC, and it explicitly calls out that the pinner doesn't gain the benefits of this. It also says you are immobilized. There's your 0 dex.