Cloak of Protection from Evil??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Cloak of Protection from Evil??? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
conte0zero
04-13-06, 05:42 AM Hi all! :)
A little question about new magic item balance.
On DMG a magic item with a constant effect spell have a price of spell level x enchanter level x 2000, modified also by the duration of the spell.
For example... A Cloak of Protection from Evil price is 1x1x2000x2 = 4000 g.p.
Only 4000 g.p. for +2 AC deflection bonus vs evil and immunity to compulsion and possession!?!?! :confused:
This item seem heavy unbalanced especially in a classic "hero" campaing where the PC face only evil monsters or NPCs.
The DMG guidelines to create magic items are wrong? Or the spell level?
FEADIN1
04-13-06, 09:59 AM That's right but these rules are guideline for non core items.
Look at this:
Horn of Goodness/Evil
This trumpet adapts itself to its owner, so it produces either a good or an evil effect depending on the owner’s alignment. If the owner is neither good nor evil, the horn has no power whatsoever. If he is good, then blowing the horn has the effect of a magic circle against evil. If he is evil, then blowing the horn has the effect of a magic circle against good. In either case, this ward lasts for 1 hour. The horn can be blown once per day.
Faint abjuration; CL 6th; Craft Wondrous Item, magic circle against good, magic circle against evil; Price 6,500 gp; Weight 1 lb.

The cloak should be priced more like an item with different effects, deflection bonuses+save bonuses+flat estimation of immunity to possession.
AC bonus (deflection) Bonus squared × 2,000 gp
Save bonus (resistance) Bonus squared × 1,000 gp
2x2x2000=8000
2x2x1000=4000
4000 for immunity
=16000GP :D
tarkin
04-13-06, 10:07 AM The DMG does not say that.

You have made a basic error, you looked at one of about 4 pricing methods, and picked the wrong one, simply because it is the easiet to do.

ANYTHING that fits a formula MUST use the formula. You only usee the spell level method if you can not find any other method that works.

Also, at the end the DM is required to check for potential problems.

The methods used for magic items are:

1) Comparison to similar items
2) Weapon and shield pricing (+x, not +x,000)
3) By formula for a bonus (such as +x to skills, +y to saves, +z to Armor...)
4) Lastly the worst one, spell level x caster level.

+2 for Deflection ALWAYS costs bous squared * 2,000 = 8,000 gp.

As you are adding on adidtional powers worth what you propose is going to end up being worth a lot more.

P.S. In general items are priced on their power, not the spells you happened to pick to be their pre-reqs. Similarlly, it is a POORLY designed magic item that just duplicates a spell always on.
Platonix
04-13-06, 11:00 AM P.S. In general items are priced on their power, not the spells you happened to pick to be their pre-reqs.
Indeed. That may not have been obvious in this case, but some other examples of magic items show that the spell needed to craft the magic item doesn't always have much to do with the final price. For an easy example, look at the classic weapon special ability flaming. In order to craft a flaming weapon, you have to use a fire-based attack spell, but you have your choice of fireball (a level-3 Sor/Wiz spell), flame blade (a level-2 druid spell), or flame strike (a spell that's level 4 for druids or level 5 for clerics.) Can you imagine if magic weaponsmiths charged different prices for flaming weapons depending on which spell they used? The wizards and clerics would go out of business!
Then there's my homebrew special ability force ammo. You enchant a bow, crossbow or sling with this and it can generate ammunition made of force. So we're looking at infinite ammo, no miss chance against incorporeals, can even hit ethereal creatures from the Material Plane from 100' away...the only drawback is you can't use the Manyshot feat without using actual ammunition. What spell does this require? magic missile. That's gonna be a wee bit more expensive than the spell suggests (it is, in fact, a +4 ability.)
conte0zero
04-13-06, 01:19 PM This is your interpretation of the rules... but not the rules.

An item like "lantern of revealing" is based on the method I apply to create the Cloak of Protection from Evil.
Same method.... "Use activated or continuous" spell level x caster level x 2000 x duration modifier.

Why "lantern of revealing" is ok and "Cloak of Protection from Evil" is wrong (and is baldy wrong)???? :confused: :confused: :confused:
Explain please...
wonlee76
04-13-06, 02:00 PM That's right but these rules are guideline for non core items.
Look at this:
Horn of Goodness/Evil
This trumpet adapts itself to its owner, so it produces either a good or an evil effect depending on the owner’s alignment. If the owner is neither good nor evil, the horn has no power whatsoever. If he is good, then blowing the horn has the effect of a magic circle against evil. If he is evil, then blowing the horn has the effect of a magic circle against good. In either case, this ward lasts for 1 hour. The horn can be blown once per day.
Faint abjuration; CL 6th; Craft Wondrous Item, magic circle against good, magic circle against evil; Price 6,500 gp; Weight 1 lb.

The cloak should be priced more like an item with different effects, deflection bonuses+save bonuses+flat estimation of immunity to possession.
AC bonus (deflection) Bonus squared × 2,000 gp
Save bonus (resistance) Bonus squared × 1,000 gp
2x2x2000=8000
2x2x1000=4000
4000 for immunity
=16000GP :D

I concur except that I don't think you put into account the whole protection from summoned monster thing which I think is more useful then immunity to possession/domination.

If you use the Horn as a guideline, you could always multiply the cost by 24 and knock off 1/3 off that price to get the price of a slotted item that gives Circle of Protection (which ends up being approximately 100k). Obviously circle of protection is better then protection from X, so your pricing doesn't seem too far off but maybe nudge it up to around 24k or so.
Bladenite78
04-13-06, 03:19 PM eh, I don't agree with that. First, most of you are ending with a number because you are dividing each task the ring can do and figuring each "power" seperately but a ring of resistance and protection is going to work more often than a ring of prot from evil that takes effect 2/3 of the time. The deflection and resistance bonuses are only applicable against evil opponents, its not the character's fault the DM has no Neutral entities in the game with motives against the PC's. The summoning protection is completely negated by good creatures and can be beaten back by spell resistance. The only truly strong feature of the ring would be that it does indeed block all mental control effects from working on the character..well unless the entire thing is dispelled anyway.
redgamer
04-13-06, 05:23 PM Since the guidlines also say use you best judgement how about some "playtesting" results. In Living Greyhawk an adventure offered access to a hat of pro evil for 8k. Hundreds of people played the adventure. As far as I know everyone-other than wizards-who had 8k bought it. It was/is considered too powerful for its price. It would be worth a little less in a cloak slot but you still could double price have takers depending on the prevelance of summoners and vampires in your campaign.
conte0zero
04-14-06, 03:02 AM I concur except that I don't think you put into account the whole protection from summoned monster thing which I think is more useful then immunity to possession/domination.

It's wrong. Read the spell.
Protection from evil block any (any say not only from evil creatures) attempt to possess or control the creature (charm, domination, etc...)
The same is for other Protection from X spell.
Same thing have the prc Church Inquisitor of 8 level!!!!
You say is less useful?!? :confused:
A Fighter (--- Will Save ;) ) with this cloak is an hard adamantine rock! No charm, no domination, no possession... is a less useful thing???? :confused:

If you use the Horn as a guideline, you could always multiply the cost by 24 and knock off 1/3 off that price to get the price of a slotted item that gives Circle of Protection (which ends up being approximately 100k). Obviously circle of protection is better then protection from X, so your pricing doesn't seem too far off but maybe nudge it up to around 24k or so.

The horn is the wrong guideline. Is a one day use object with "command word". Do not match!
conte0zero
04-14-06, 04:05 AM Since the guidlines also say use you best judgement how about some "playtesting" results. In Living Greyhawk an adventure offered access to a hat of pro evil for 8k. Hundreds of people played the adventure. As far as I know everyone-other than wizards-who had 8k bought it. It was/is considered too powerful for its price. It would be worth a little less in a cloak slot but you still could double price have takers depending on the prevelance of summoners and vampires in your campaign.

I agree. Is too powerful for this price.
4000... 8000... 16000... is nothing for an object like this.

The key of this thread is:
Why an object like "lantern of revealing" is balanced with DMG method of creating magic items "Use activated or continuous" and "cloak (or hat, or vest, or amulet, or...) of protection from evil" is unbalanced???

Protection from Evil is an unbalanced spell???
No and yes.
A 1st level spell that neutralize the domination ability of a vampire, or the possession ability of a ghost, or any enchantment [complusion] spell... is unbalanced... i think.
A 1st level spell that grant a +2 AC and Save bonus vs evil is balanced... i think.
wonlee76
04-14-06, 10:22 AM The horn is the wrong guideline. Is a one day use object with "command word". Do not match!

Why do you think the horn is a wrong item to follow as a litmus test for price.

You got a command word item for 6500 gold that does a Circle of Protection from Good/Evil 1/day that lasts 1 hour.

OP wants basically a cloak of Protection from X that is constant in effect.

If the OP wanted a cloak of Circle of Protection from X that is constant, I would simply multiply the horn's price by 24 and reduce the price by 33% since the horn is an unslotted item. (Which ends up being approximately 100k gold).

Looking at the lesser version of this cloak, it should definitely be a lot cheaper then 100k. I pegged it at 24k (maybe a little higher but not much) myself which I think is reasonable based on comparing the price to what a Cloak of Circle of Protection from X would cost.
conte0zero
04-14-06, 11:03 AM Why do you think the horn is a wrong item to follow as a litmus test for price.

You got a command word item for 6500 gold that does a Circle of Protection from Good/Evil 1/day that lasts 1 hour.

OP wants basically a cloak of Protection from X that is constant in effect.

If the OP wanted a cloak of Circle of Protection from X that is constant, I would simply multiply the horn's price by 24 and reduce the price by 33% since the horn is an unslotted item. (Which ends up being approximately 100k gold).

Looking at the lesser version of this cloak, it should definitely be a lot cheaper then 100k. I pegged it at 24k (maybe a little higher but not much) myself which I think is reasonable based on comparing the price to what a Cloak of Circle of Protection from X would cost.

This is an house rule. Not the DMG method.

For example... "Bless" is a 1st level spell same as "Protection from Evil".
A Cloak (or another slotted item) of Bless created with DMG method have the same price... 1x1x2000x2 = 4000 gp
This is a balanced item created with the same DMG method of "lantern of revealing".

NO house rules please.
conte0zero
04-14-06, 11:41 AM Why do you think the horn is a wrong item to follow as a litmus test for price.

The Horn is created using the DMG method of item with "Command Word":
spell level (3 of Magic Circle) x caster level (the item have specify 6th caster level on the description) x 1800 / (5 / charges x day (the Horn have only 1 charge) = 6480 gp... rounded to 6500 gp

The Horn of Goodnes/Evil is created using the DMG method of "Command Word" not the "Use-activated or continuos" method.
The Horn of Goodnes/Evil is the wrong item... similiar spell but different creation method.
ClementWillowbreaker
04-14-06, 12:39 PM As Tarkin already said, using spell level is the last resort, when the effect does not provide a separately-priced effect, like AC, resistance bonus to saves, etc. Making them limited to only evil opponents warrants a reduction in price, but that goes off the base prices for the effects. Hedging out summons and mind control are powers that have to be prices subjectively or by comparison.
Merestil Haye
04-14-06, 07:01 PM This is an house rule. Not the DMG method.Incorrect.

The method given in the SRD is Magic Item Gold Piece Values
Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to match the new item to an item that is already priced that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values.Get that? You price a new item by comparing it to existing ones first.

A deflection bonus to AC has a price fomula. Use it. A 50% discount to the price may be acceptable because it applies only against attacks from a limited set of enemies.

A resistance bonus to saving throws has a price formula. Use it. A 50% discount to the price may be acceptable because it applies only against attacks from a limited set of enemies.

The freedom from mental control is very useful; it enables the character to act normally for a short while. And I do mean short. The spell has a duration of one minute per level. Dominate person lasts one day per level.1 This is where the problem with pricing the item comes in; when you need this you need it, and an always-on version is either a waste or it absolutely wrecks the challenge a monster might otherwise provide.

I'd price this on its own using the spell guidelines. I'd also remember to dial in the adjustment for short-duation spells. So 2,000*caster level * 2 (minute per level).

Also, the caster level. A +2 deflection bonus has a minimum caster level of 6th level. A +2 resistance bonus has the same minimum. Thus the item is a minimum CL of 6. This would make the mental protection 24,000gp. Does that seem high to anyone else?

The third element, the protection from summoned non-Good creatures; is worth very little against anything with SR; in such case the warded creature can make a caster level check with +6 to the roll, so average 11; how much protection does that offer you against a marilith (SR 25)? Not much... I'd be inclined to price it at around 500gp* CL (6 in this case), given its limitation.

This makes the mental protection the most expensive component. Everything else is uprated by 50% because they are aditional powers in a slotted item.

Using these figures, you would have a price of

24,000 + ½*8,000*1½ + ½*4,000*1½ + 3,000*1½ = 37,500gp.

1This might provide you with a clue as to why Protection from Evil is more balanced than you seem to think. It also tells me that you have not even followed your own methodology properly, as you neglect the multiplier for short duration.
conte0zero
04-18-06, 04:19 AM The method you explain seem correct. But i do not understand this:

I'd price this on its own using the spell guidelines. I'd also remember to dial in the adjustment for short-duation spells. So 2,000*caster level * 2 (minute per level).

What is the spell you reference for this??? Protection form Evil?

Also, the caster level. A +2 deflection bonus has a minimum caster level of 6th level. A +2 resistance bonus has the same minimum. Thus the item is a minimum CL of 6. This would make the mental protection 24,000gp. Does that seem high to anyone else?

This an excellent idea! :)
You have hit the target!!! IMHO
Thank you! ;)

The third element, the protection from summoned non-Good creatures; is worth very little against anything with SR; in such case the warded creature can make a caster level check with +6 to the roll, so average 11; how much protection does that offer you against a marilith (SR 25)? Not much... I'd be inclined to price it at around 500gp* CL (6 in this case), given its limitation.

Yes i agree.
If you calculate the "mental freedom" price based on the spell protection from evil i mean this price also include the "protection from summoned" power.
conte0zero
04-18-06, 04:26 AM In "Book of Exalted Deeds" there is the "Exalted" armor property with constant effect of Protection from Evil.
The Exalted armor also negates Vile damage and half damage from unholy weapons (lesser ability... IMHO).
Exalted is a +3 armor property.
Merestil Haye
04-18-06, 08:36 AM I'd price this on its own using the spell guidelines. I'd also remember to dial in the adjustment for short-duation spells. So 2,000*caster level * 2 (minute per level).What is the spell you reference for this??? Protection form Evil?Yes. Protection from Evil has a duration of 1 minute per level.

I appear to have been guilty of sloppy editing when drafting the post regarding the warded creature and SR. My original draft said that since the item had CL1, the warded creature needed to make a caster level check with +1 to the roll, average 11. When I realised that the item was CL6 I went back and changed the warded creature's modifier but not the result; it should bethe warded creature needed to make a caster level check with +6 to the roll, average 16.Apologies if anyone was confused.

On the Exalted armour property; +3 bonus price sounds reasonable. Remember that this cost has three elements; what it actually costs in gp (which is dependent on the enhancements the armour already has), how much it increases everything else you have put in the armour, and what it prevents you from putting in the armour's limited number of enhancement slots.
conte0zero
04-18-06, 08:59 AM On the Exalted armour property; +3 bonus price sounds reasonable. Remember that this cost has three elements; what it actually costs in gp (which is dependent on the enhancements the armour already has), how much it increases everything else you have put in the armour, and what it prevents you from putting in the armour's limited number of enhancement slots.

Yes, yes... the armor property is quite different in price. Obviously.

Your solution seem to be good. Based on the DMG rules and well balanced.
Thank you!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
conte0zero 04-13-06, 05:42 AM	Hi all! :) A little question about new magic item balance. On DMG a magic item with a constant effect spell have a price of spell level x enchanter level x 2000, modified also by the duration of the spell. For example... A Cloak of Protection from Evil price is 1x1x2000x2 = 4000 g.p. Only 4000 g.p. for +2 AC deflection bonus vs evil and immunity to compulsion and possession!?!?! :confused: This item seem heavy unbalanced especially in a classic "hero" campaing where the PC face only evil monsters or NPCs. The DMG guidelines to create magic items are wrong? Or the spell level?
FEADIN1 04-13-06, 09:59 AM	That's right but these rules are guideline for non core items. Look at this: Horn of Goodness/Evil This trumpet adapts itself to its owner, so it produces either a good or an evil effect depending on the owner’s alignment. If the owner is neither good nor evil, the horn has no power whatsoever. If he is good, then blowing the horn has the effect of a magic circle against evil. If he is evil, then blowing the horn has the effect of a magic circle against good. In either case, this ward lasts for 1 hour. The horn can be blown once per day. Faint abjuration; CL 6th; Craft Wondrous Item, magic circle against good, magic circle against evil; Price 6,500 gp; Weight 1 lb. The cloak should be priced more like an item with different effects, deflection bonuses+save bonuses+flat estimation of immunity to possession. AC bonus (deflection) Bonus squared × 2,000 gp Save bonus (resistance) Bonus squared × 1,000 gp 2x2x2000=8000 2x2x1000=4000 4000 for immunity =16000GP :D
tarkin 04-13-06, 10:07 AM	The DMG does not say that. You have made a basic error, you looked at one of about 4 pricing methods, and picked the wrong one, simply because it is the easiet to do. ANYTHING that fits a formula MUST use the formula. You only usee the spell level method if you can not find any other method that works. Also, at the end the DM is required to check for potential problems. The methods used for magic items are: 1) Comparison to similar items 2) Weapon and shield pricing (+x, not +x,000) 3) By formula for a bonus (such as +x to skills, +y to saves, +z to Armor...) 4) Lastly the worst one, spell level x caster level. +2 for Deflection ALWAYS costs bous squared * 2,000 = 8,000 gp. As you are adding on adidtional powers worth what you propose is going to end up being worth a lot more. P.S. In general items are priced on their power, not the spells you happened to pick to be their pre-reqs. Similarlly, it is a POORLY designed magic item that just duplicates a spell always on.
Platonix 04-13-06, 11:00 AM	P.S. In general items are priced on their power, not the spells you happened to pick to be their pre-reqs. Indeed. That may not have been obvious in this case, but some other examples of magic items show that the spell needed to craft the magic item doesn't always have much to do with the final price. For an easy example, look at the classic weapon special ability flaming. In order to craft a flaming weapon, you have to use a fire-based attack spell, but you have your choice of fireball (a level-3 Sor/Wiz spell), flame blade (a level-2 druid spell), or flame strike (a spell that's level 4 for druids or level 5 for clerics.) Can you imagine if magic weaponsmiths charged different prices for flaming weapons depending on which spell they used? The wizards and clerics would go out of business! Then there's my homebrew special ability force ammo. You enchant a bow, crossbow or sling with this and it can generate ammunition made of force. So we're looking at infinite ammo, no miss chance against incorporeals, can even hit ethereal creatures from the Material Plane from 100' away...the only drawback is you can't use the Manyshot feat without using actual ammunition. What spell does this require? magic missile. That's gonna be a wee bit more expensive than the spell suggests (it is, in fact, a +4 ability.)
conte0zero 04-13-06, 01:19 PM	This is your interpretation of the rules... but not the rules. An item like "lantern of revealing" is based on the method I apply to create the Cloak of Protection from Evil. Same method.... "Use activated or continuous" spell level x caster level x 2000 x duration modifier. Why "lantern of revealing" is ok and "Cloak of Protection from Evil" is wrong (and is baldy wrong)???? :confused: :confused: :confused: Explain please...
wonlee76 04-13-06, 02:00 PM	That's right but these rules are guideline for non core items. Look at this: Horn of Goodness/Evil This trumpet adapts itself to its owner, so it produces either a good or an evil effect depending on the owner’s alignment. If the owner is neither good nor evil, the horn has no power whatsoever. If he is good, then blowing the horn has the effect of a magic circle against evil. If he is evil, then blowing the horn has the effect of a magic circle against good. In either case, this ward lasts for 1 hour. The horn can be blown once per day. Faint abjuration; CL 6th; Craft Wondrous Item, magic circle against good, magic circle against evil; Price 6,500 gp; Weight 1 lb. The cloak should be priced more like an item with different effects, deflection bonuses+save bonuses+flat estimation of immunity to possession. AC bonus (deflection) Bonus squared × 2,000 gp Save bonus (resistance) Bonus squared × 1,000 gp 2x2x2000=8000 2x2x1000=4000 4000 for immunity =16000GP :D I concur except that I don't think you put into account the whole protection from summoned monster thing which I think is more useful then immunity to possession/domination. If you use the Horn as a guideline, you could always multiply the cost by 24 and knock off 1/3 off that price to get the price of a slotted item that gives Circle of Protection (which ends up being approximately 100k). Obviously circle of protection is better then protection from X, so your pricing doesn't seem too far off but maybe nudge it up to around 24k or so.
Bladenite78 04-13-06, 03:19 PM	eh, I don't agree with that. First, most of you are ending with a number because you are dividing each task the ring can do and figuring each "power" seperately but a ring of resistance and protection is going to work more often than a ring of prot from evil that takes effect 2/3 of the time. The deflection and resistance bonuses are only applicable against evil opponents, its not the character's fault the DM has no Neutral entities in the game with motives against the PC's. The summoning protection is completely negated by good creatures and can be beaten back by spell resistance. The only truly strong feature of the ring would be that it does indeed block all mental control effects from working on the character..well unless the entire thing is dispelled anyway.
redgamer 04-13-06, 05:23 PM	Since the guidlines also say use you best judgement how about some "playtesting" results. In Living Greyhawk an adventure offered access to a hat of pro evil for 8k. Hundreds of people played the adventure. As far as I know everyone-other than wizards-who had 8k bought it. It was/is considered too powerful for its price. It would be worth a little less in a cloak slot but you still could double price have takers depending on the prevelance of summoners and vampires in your campaign.
conte0zero 04-14-06, 03:02 AM	I concur except that I don't think you put into account the whole protection from summoned monster thing which I think is more useful then immunity to possession/domination. It's wrong. Read the spell. Protection from evil block any (any say not only from evil creatures) attempt to possess or control the creature (charm, domination, etc...) The same is for other Protection from X spell. Same thing have the prc Church Inquisitor of 8 level!!!! You say is less useful?!? :confused: A Fighter (--- Will Save ;) ) with this cloak is an hard adamantine rock! No charm, no domination, no possession... is a less useful thing???? :confused: If you use the Horn as a guideline, you could always multiply the cost by 24 and knock off 1/3 off that price to get the price of a slotted item that gives Circle of Protection (which ends up being approximately 100k). Obviously circle of protection is better then protection from X, so your pricing doesn't seem too far off but maybe nudge it up to around 24k or so. The horn is the wrong guideline. Is a one day use object with "command word". Do not match!
conte0zero 04-14-06, 04:05 AM	Since the guidlines also say use you best judgement how about some "playtesting" results. In Living Greyhawk an adventure offered access to a hat of pro evil for 8k. Hundreds of people played the adventure. As far as I know everyone-other than wizards-who had 8k bought it. It was/is considered too powerful for its price. It would be worth a little less in a cloak slot but you still could double price have takers depending on the prevelance of summoners and vampires in your campaign. I agree. Is too powerful for this price. 4000... 8000... 16000... is nothing for an object like this. The key of this thread is: Why an object like "lantern of revealing" is balanced with DMG method of creating magic items "Use activated or continuous" and "cloak (or hat, or vest, or amulet, or...) of protection from evil" is unbalanced??? Protection from Evil is an unbalanced spell??? No and yes. A 1st level spell that neutralize the domination ability of a vampire, or the possession ability of a ghost, or any enchantment [complusion] spell... is unbalanced... i think. A 1st level spell that grant a +2 AC and Save bonus vs evil is balanced... i think.
wonlee76 04-14-06, 10:22 AM	The horn is the wrong guideline. Is a one day use object with "command word". Do not match! Why do you think the horn is a wrong item to follow as a litmus test for price. You got a command word item for 6500 gold that does a Circle of Protection from Good/Evil 1/day that lasts 1 hour. OP wants basically a cloak of Protection from X that is constant in effect. If the OP wanted a cloak of Circle of Protection from X that is constant, I would simply multiply the horn's price by 24 and reduce the price by 33% since the horn is an unslotted item. (Which ends up being approximately 100k gold). Looking at the lesser version of this cloak, it should definitely be a lot cheaper then 100k. I pegged it at 24k (maybe a little higher but not much) myself which I think is reasonable based on comparing the price to what a Cloak of Circle of Protection from X would cost.
conte0zero 04-14-06, 11:03 AM	Why do you think the horn is a wrong item to follow as a litmus test for price. You got a command word item for 6500 gold that does a Circle of Protection from Good/Evil 1/day that lasts 1 hour. OP wants basically a cloak of Protection from X that is constant in effect. If the OP wanted a cloak of Circle of Protection from X that is constant, I would simply multiply the horn's price by 24 and reduce the price by 33% since the horn is an unslotted item. (Which ends up being approximately 100k gold). Looking at the lesser version of this cloak, it should definitely be a lot cheaper then 100k. I pegged it at 24k (maybe a little higher but not much) myself which I think is reasonable based on comparing the price to what a Cloak of Circle of Protection from X would cost. This is an house rule. Not the DMG method. For example... "Bless" is a 1st level spell same as "Protection from Evil". A Cloak (or another slotted item) of Bless created with DMG method have the same price... 1x1x2000x2 = 4000 gp This is a balanced item created with the same DMG method of "lantern of revealing". NO house rules please.
conte0zero 04-14-06, 11:41 AM	Why do you think the horn is a wrong item to follow as a litmus test for price. The Horn is created using the DMG method of item with "Command Word": spell level (3 of Magic Circle) x caster level (the item have specify 6th caster level on the description) x 1800 / (5 / charges x day (the Horn have only 1 charge) = 6480 gp... rounded to 6500 gp The Horn of Goodnes/Evil is created using the DMG method of "Command Word" not the "Use-activated or continuos" method. The Horn of Goodnes/Evil is the wrong item... similiar spell but different creation method.
ClementWillowbreaker 04-14-06, 12:39 PM	As Tarkin already said, using spell level is the last resort, when the effect does not provide a separately-priced effect, like AC, resistance bonus to saves, etc. Making them limited to only evil opponents warrants a reduction in price, but that goes off the base prices for the effects. Hedging out summons and mind control are powers that have to be prices subjectively or by comparison.
Merestil Haye 04-14-06, 07:01 PM	This is an house rule. Not the DMG method.Incorrect. The method given in the SRD is Magic Item Gold Piece Values Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to match the new item to an item that is already priced that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values.Get that? You price a new item by comparing it to existing ones first. A deflection bonus to AC has a price fomula. Use it. A 50% discount to the price may be acceptable because it applies only against attacks from a limited set of enemies. A resistance bonus to saving throws has a price formula. Use it. A 50% discount to the price may be acceptable because it applies only against attacks from a limited set of enemies. The freedom from mental control is very useful; it enables the character to act normally for a short while. And I do mean short. The spell has a duration of one minute per level. Dominate person lasts one day per level.1 This is where the problem with pricing the item comes in; when you need this you need it, and an always-on version is either a waste or it absolutely wrecks the challenge a monster might otherwise provide. I'd price this on its own using the spell guidelines. I'd also remember to dial in the adjustment for short-duation spells. So 2,000caster level 2 (minute per level). Also, the caster level. A +2 deflection bonus has a minimum caster level of 6th level. A +2 resistance bonus has the same minimum. Thus the item is a minimum CL of 6. This would make the mental protection 24,000gp. Does that seem high to anyone else? The third element, the protection from summoned non-Good creatures; is worth very little against anything with SR; in such case the warded creature can make a caster level check with +6 to the roll, so average 11; how much protection does that offer you against a marilith (SR 25)? Not much... I'd be inclined to price it at around 500gp* CL (6 in this case), given its limitation. This makes the mental protection the most expensive component. Everything else is uprated by 50% because they are aditional powers in a slotted item. Using these figures, you would have a price of 24,000 + ½8,0001½ + ½4,0001½ + 3,000*1½ = 37,500gp. 1This might provide you with a clue as to why Protection from Evil is more balanced than you seem to think. It also tells me that you have not even followed your own methodology properly, as you neglect the multiplier for short duration.
conte0zero 04-18-06, 04:19 AM	The method you explain seem correct. But i do not understand this: I'd price this on its own using the spell guidelines. I'd also remember to dial in the adjustment for short-duation spells. So 2,000caster level 2 (minute per level). What is the spell you reference for this??? Protection form Evil? Also, the caster level. A +2 deflection bonus has a minimum caster level of 6th level. A +2 resistance bonus has the same minimum. Thus the item is a minimum CL of 6. This would make the mental protection 24,000gp. Does that seem high to anyone else? This an excellent idea! :) You have hit the target!!! IMHO Thank you! ;) The third element, the protection from summoned non-Good creatures; is worth very little against anything with SR; in such case the warded creature can make a caster level check with +6 to the roll, so average 11; how much protection does that offer you against a marilith (SR 25)? Not much... I'd be inclined to price it at around 500gp* CL (6 in this case), given its limitation. Yes i agree. If you calculate the "mental freedom" price based on the spell protection from evil i mean this price also include the "protection from summoned" power.
conte0zero 04-18-06, 04:26 AM	In "Book of Exalted Deeds" there is the "Exalted" armor property with constant effect of Protection from Evil. The Exalted armor also negates Vile damage and half damage from unholy weapons (lesser ability... IMHO). Exalted is a +3 armor property.
Merestil Haye 04-18-06, 08:36 AM	I'd price this on its own using the spell guidelines. I'd also remember to dial in the adjustment for short-duation spells. So 2,000caster level 2 (minute per level).What is the spell you reference for this??? Protection form Evil?Yes. Protection from Evil has a duration of 1 minute per level. I appear to have been guilty of sloppy editing when drafting the post regarding the warded creature and SR. My original draft said that since the item had CL1, the warded creature needed to make a caster level check with +1 to the roll, average 11. When I realised that the item was CL6 I went back and changed the warded creature's modifier but not the result; it should bethe warded creature needed to make a caster level check with +6 to the roll, average 16.Apologies if anyone was confused. On the Exalted armour property; +3 bonus price sounds reasonable. Remember that this cost has three elements; what it actually costs in gp (which is dependent on the enhancements the armour already has), how much it increases everything else you have put in the armour, and what it prevents you from putting in the armour's limited number of enhancement slots.
conte0zero 04-18-06, 08:59 AM	On the Exalted armour property; +3 bonus price sounds reasonable. Remember that this cost has three elements; what it actually costs in gp (which is dependent on the enhancements the armour already has), how much it increases everything else you have put in the armour, and what it prevents you from putting in the armour's limited number of enhancement slots. Yes, yes... the armor property is quite different in price. Obviously. Your solution seem to be good. Based on the DMG rules and well balanced. Thank you!