Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cendragon 03-25-07, 12:58 PM	I have a player who consistently closes his eyes in combat when confronted by enemies with mirror image or gaze attacks that depend on being seen. He then states he has only a 50% miss chance. In a recent high-level encounter an enemy wizard had 8 mirror images and displacement and he closed is eyes, saying effectively he only now suffered a 50% miss chance. I cannot find anything on the rules about this, except the 50% miss chance when fighting while blind. Does anyone ever run into this and how do you handle it?
ClementWillowbreaker 03-25-07, 01:08 PM	He suffers a 50% miss chance, which is good. He has to guess what square to attack into, loses his Dex to AC, and everyone gets +2 to hit him, which is bad. If you actually apply all the effects of being blind, it actually becomes a tactical choice.
Cendragon 03-25-07, 01:10 PM	How do you work the rules for guessing which square to attack into? He states that if the opponent is standing right in front of him and he closes his eyes (a free action) and immediately attacks then he knows what square his opponent is in because his opponent has had no time to move.
EternalZzyx 03-25-07, 01:11 PM	Just have the opponent move, that means the player has to pinpoint it with a listen check (I think, dont know where I read this though). Don't forget all the blinded penalties he gets, (DMG:300) his AC drops greatly. You could always send rogues against him with mirror image active, as with his eyes shut they can make sneak attacks against him. Beaten too it... oh well...
ClementWillowbreaker 03-25-07, 01:14 PM	That is called cheating. Either your eyes are open for the round, or they aren't. An attack roll represents a standard-action's worth of hacking and stabbing- not a single strike. Blinking does not cause blindness, which is what he is trying to do.
paladin2019 03-25-07, 01:37 PM	Reread the invisibility special ability. If a character closes his eyes, all attackers are effectively invisible to him. The invisibility rules spell out everything you need to know.
SALDAR 03-25-07, 02:00 PM	Since everything in a round happens simultaneously his closed eyes would make him blind until his next turn in the next round. I would let him close his eyes. Then I would have every creature available beat on the easy target. Don't forget, since all other creatures have full concealment he also gives up AoOs. Once he closes his eyes the wizard is free to cast spells and move without fear of AoOs. Now what touch spells do I have prepared?
PhaedrusXY 03-25-07, 04:34 PM	What he's doing is legit, but I agree that I would probably require him to either keep his eyes open or closed for the entire round to get the "benefits" of it. Even that won't matter much, however, as the DC to hear someone in combat is -10. He would probably get a -5 to his check for being distracted, however. If he takes the Blind Fight feat, this becomes an even better tactic. Check this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=815341) out. :D
ClementWillowbreaker 03-25-07, 04:38 PM	Base DC 0 to detect them, but you have to beat it by 20 to narrow it down to a square DMG p295. The -10 is to hear a combat with Listen, not discover that there is a invisible creature participating. There are feats that go along with Blindfight to help with that, either through Blindsense/sight? or reducing that DC. I can't remember them exactly, but they are around.
Moribund 03-25-07, 08:43 PM	The images do not necessarily occupy the same square, they just need to be within 5' of another image or the caster. So taking a peek to pick a square really only limits the options one square per image. The suggestion made in the FAQ to have them all occupy the same square is to streamline combat, not to take away the advantages granted by the spell. As ClementW pointed out, he could use Listen checks to pinpoint the square containing the real wizard, needing to beat the DC by 20. Though I wouldn't use the -10 to hear a combat, that is hearing everybody shouting and swords clanging together not someone trying to avoid notice at all. The DC of 0 would apply if the wizard was casting a spell, as he is required to speak in a loud, clear voice.
TrustTymora 03-26-07, 03:30 AM	It probably isn't unrealistic to allow the player to move up to the wizard with eyes open then close his eyes and attack the square. This is a case where having the mirror images occupy more than just the single square is a big advantage even though it is recommended to play with images all in the same square. For gaze attacks I handle it similar. If a player wants to declare that he approaches the creature with averting eyes and swings then free action closes so as to not be the target of a gaze attack thats fine. He can then on his turn open to averting eye status try to track down the creature heading towards it to swing and then close eyes again. I don't see a problem with this. As pointed out blind fight feat makes this tactic good. Just remember the eyes are closed until his next turn. This is the drawback. But depending on build (tank, etc.) the player may be willing to actually give all the opponents the advantage of being invisible until his next turn. Its the players choice - what you do with your invisible opponents is up to you. Gaze attack creatures may move right up to the opponent and ready an action that as soon his eyes open to gaze attack. On the players initiative 50% chance it needs a saving throw while averting eyes. If not needed or saving throw made then another 50% check to see if needs to save against readied gaze attack. Or invisible opponents come up and grapple without provoking AoO etc. Anyway, tactic is alright. I would suggest trying to use 9 squares with your wizard that had 8 images (think huge creature). Which square to you want to go up to? Probably not worth closing your eyes since there is only one image per square. TT
Critalondel 03-26-07, 10:21 AM	Don't forget, not only are all enemies considered "invisible" to him, but so are all his friendly neighborhood party members. And if he keeps his eyes closed through multiple rounds of combat, well, it'll be awful easy for him to get mixed up and not swing where he wants to swing when he says "I attack the square in front of me."
Maraxus 03-26-07, 10:39 AM	There is nothing in the rules, that sais, when you close your eyes, they have to stay closed for a whole round. While it would be nice to immagine everything in a round happen simultaneously, that is not the case. A wizard chased by a fighter can move 30 ft away and blast the fighter with a fireball without being in the area of effect, because the fighter is frozen in time. He is standing around and letting others act while he does nothing. A character can speak a few words on his action and he is done with it, once his action is done and in the next initiative step (or even later in the same), someone else (or even the character himself) can answer on that, because the first character is done talking. Given enough people, you can chant the whole Nibelungenlied within one round. Time flows diffrent in D&D, you can close your eyes, act for 6 seconds open your eyes again, then somebody else acts for 6 seconds and overall not 12, but only 6 seconds have passed. Yes, it's bad, but mostly everything is build on that and there is no reason to forbit it in this specific case. About the tactic of closing eyes vs. Mirror image: -Pro: Only 50% miss chance. -Con: Misses don't destroy images, you will have 50% miss the whole fight, while somebody with open eyes will quickly dipose the images and attack without miss chance (except of course the spellcaster has displacement, too). ...Plus, of course readied action can still catch him with eyes closed.
ShinAkuma2 03-26-07, 12:32 PM	While it would be nice to immagine everything in a round happen simultaneously, that is not the case. Well, the DMG disagrees with you, so that really voids your whole argument, doesn't it?
DarknessEternal 03-26-07, 06:04 PM	One thing everyone has missed here, Mirror Image is not solely visual. It's an illusion against every sense. If it were not, it wouldn't work against creatures with blindsense, tremorsense, or blindsight. But it does work against those things. Closing your eyes against someone using Mirror Image only applies the penlaties of invisible targets IN ADDITION to those of Mirror Image. You can move into and through a mirror image. When you and the mirror image separate, observers can’t use vision or hearing to tell which one is you and which the image
ClementWillowbreaker 03-26-07, 06:06 PM	Good, the thread is negated. Now let's move the discussion to the other three threads on the boards about closing your eyes/invisibility/Blindfighting.
Maraxus 03-26-07, 06:45 PM	One thing everyone has missed here, Mirror Image is not solely visual. It's an illusion against every sense. If it were not, it wouldn't work against creatures with blindsense, tremorsense, or blindsight. But it does work against those things. Closing your eyes against someone using Mirror Image only applies the penlaties of invisible targets IN ADDITION to those of Mirror Image. You can move into and through a mirror image. When you and the mirror image separate, observers can’t use vision or hearing to tell which one is you and which the image Yes, the contradiction of Mirror image. Yes, Mirror image states that it also fools hearing ... unless somebody closes his eyes. A really impressive auditory illusion, that only effects people able to see it. but that's the way it works. An attacker must be able to see the images to be fooled. If you are invisible or an attacker shuts his or her eyes, the spell has no effect. (Being unable to see carries the same penalties as being blinded.) ShinAkuma2: No, it does not. If the Dungeonmasters Guide in one line sais something that contradicts with the whole rest of the system, then either this one line or the whole rest of the system is wrong. I prefer to call that line "flavor" in that case. Or call it a periphrasis for the effect, that x*6 seconds = 6 seconds where is is the number of combatants and greater than 1. You can close your eyes, then act and then open them again. You have spend your whole action with the eyes closed. After this your opponent acts and you can see it. The opponent acts at the same time you act, but still while you act your eyes are closed and while he acts, your eyes are open, because he acts on a later initiative step (that happens later at the same time). Sounds confusing? Yes, it is. Hard to imagine? Maybe, but not as hard as lots of people taking "delay action, move, pass relay-race-stick to the next one", in order to transport said stick a few miles within 6 seconds (you need roughly 210 people to have it move faster then the speed of sound, an average nation's populationg can get it over the speed of light. So choose one: Either Einstein was wrong, or that one line in the DMG :D)
Vegepygmy 03-26-07, 07:49 PM	Does anyone ever run into this and how do you handle it?You may close your eyes to negate mirror image spells and/or gaze attacks. If you do so, you are effectively blind until your next turn. It's simple and it's fair. (A really smart player will "turn his back" on enemies with a gaze attack, as allowed by the DMG, page 294, rather than close his eyes.)
SALDAR 03-26-07, 08:13 PM	If the Dungeonmasters Guide in one line sais something that contradicts with the whole rest of the system, then either this one line or the whole rest of the system is wrong. I prefer to call that line "flavor" in that case. Actually, it is not one line. It is a 3 paragraph section titled Simultaneous Activity. You'll find it on page 24 in the DMG.
Iver Gearsham 03-27-07, 03:26 AM	Everyone able to SA with in 30 ft. is able SA him every time he does it. He would be rendering himself open to Full round SA attacks as every strike he would be denied his DEX. One Arcane Trickster encounter later and he should give that nonsenes up.
Maraxus 03-27-07, 09:05 AM	Everyone able to SA with in 30 ft. is able SA him every time he does it. He would be rendering himself open to Full round SA attacks as every strike he would be denied his DEX. One Arcane Trickster encounter later and he should give that nonsenes up. Only, if they ready an action to do so while his eyes are closed. Or let my prove my point this way: Fighter A and Fighter B hack at each other. Fighter A makes a full attack (4 attacks, they are high level) and the 4th attack brings B below 0 hp. Taking your philosophy that everything happens simultaneously, Fighter B could then still make his attacks (or at least the first 3), because they happen at the same time. The page you are refering to, Saldar, give an example: Tordek hussles down a corridor with his friends and his innitiative count is the highest, so he moves 25 ft and on a trap. Now they say, the trap should not trigger till the end of the round, because "it takes some time for him to get that way." But let's go on and imagine there are two enemy wizards acting next. One casts a wall of force dircetly behind Tordek's position (over the trap) and the other one casts a wall of force directly in front of the rest of the party. Now if it takes Tordek "some time to move to his new position", this would mean, that he actually if not on the trap allready, is he? The Wall of force is at the border of the trap and he is still on the save side. Or would you say, that the casting needs untill the end of the turn, too? In that case, the rest of the party should obviously be able to move along the corridor with Tordek and the other wall of force would apear behind them - but it does not. If everybody acted at the same time, it would not be possible for a party moving down a corridor together, to find themselves seperated by 2 walls of force 25 (or more) feat away from another. It would not be possible but in D&D this happens, therefor not everybody acts on the same time. Of course you can housrrule everything, make spells take time, if a caster beginns casting at initiative count 20, he will be ready at 10, and everybody moving moves not 30 ft but 4 ft per initiative count and a full attack does not happen at once but one attack every (highest initative in the fight / Number of attacks) initiative steps and so on and so far. - Then everything would happen at the same time. AD&D had such rules. People found it quite complicated. That's why D&D does not have them and it's "Everybody act's after another. If possible, this should be described as "all happening at once" for flavor reasons. Where this simply does not work, this strange timing has to be ignored for the simplicity. A character can close his eyes, attack and open them again before anybody else acts (except for readied actions), those are the rules! If you want to change that to make it more conforming the philosophy of "everybody at once", be my guest but than there are a lot of other thinks you have to houserule at the same time.
antsu 03-27-07, 10:47 AM	I dont know what is the point here exactly. It feels foolish to me to try to hit someone with closed eyes (until I have used all my attacks ) and then to decide to defend myself eyes open for a while... This would not work in real life but anyway its irrelevant. As I understand mirror image works also against blinded creatures so why make your attacks more difficult by closing your eyes? Closing eyes might work against gaze attacks but still its not something I would call good tactic...
Maraxus 03-27-07, 01:18 PM	As I understand mirror image works also against blinded creatures so why make your attacks more difficult by closing your eyes?As quoted above, it does not. An attacker must be able to see the images to be fooled. If you are invisible or an attacker shuts his or her eyes, the spell has no effect. (Being unable to see carries the same penalties as being blinded.)
TheOinodaemon 03-27-07, 01:29 PM	The question isn't one of reality, but game balance. I f closing your eyes has no downside then every character will view the world through a strobe light. If character closes his eyes then he gains the advantages and disabilities of blindness til his next turn. Such is life, and with blindfight some other feats this still remains a viable tactic.
Iver Gearsham 03-27-07, 04:23 PM	Only, if they ready an action to do so while his eyes are closed.You mean like the second round of combat? :rolleyes:
TrustTymora 03-27-07, 06:50 PM	Yes, the contradiction of Mirror image. Yes, Mirror image states that it also fools hearing ... unless somebody closes his eyes. A really impressive auditory illusion, that only effects people able to see it. but that's the way it works. Surly your not trying to say that only those with vision are capable of observing are you? I would check your understanding of the word observe if that is what you are trying to say. Just one of many definitions is shown below from: http://www.mdk12.org/instruction/curriculum/science/glossary.shtml Observe: To gather information and direct evidence by using senses and/or scientific instruments. No mention of which of the senses are used and in fact indicates that it may not be a sense at all that is used to gather the information. I don't like your strict interpretation of what the word "observe" means in the context of the spell (that it only deals with vision) but if you want to play it that way by all means go ahead. If the DM wants to allow close eyes (free action), attack, open eyes (free action) the DM can. A DM can grant any number of free actions to the player as he wants. On the other hand the DM is just as likely to allow close eyes (free action), and attack only stating the player doesn't get his eyes open in time before the other opponents initiative started. Since you take free actions on your turn and it is no longer your turn they would be closed until your next turn. Free actions are just that Free as long as the DM allows them. A player has no right to tell the DM how many free actions he gets etc. - a player asks the DM if allowed to do XYZ as a free action and the DM either allows it or doesn't. Personally, against Mirror Image - close eyes (free), attack, open eyes (free), move away (move equiv) is probably not too much to ask for. My prior statements were more specific to gaze attacks. If you want to benefit from not having to make saving throws your eyes are closed until your next turn. For mirror image simply have images in multiple squares if this tactic is bothering you. TT
SunTzuWarmaster 03-27-07, 08:00 PM	Okay everyone, let's put it to rest. You can close your eyes, the spell description EVEN SAYS SO. Mirror Image does not create duplicate yous that can be located by Listen checks, which is why you cannot cast it if you are invisible (damn!). Now we are in the realm of counter-tactics. Mage - I cast Mirror Image Fighter - I close my eyes Mage - I take a 10' step back (provoking no AoO because he is blind, cast another spell?) Fighter - I open my eyes, move 10', close my eyes, and take 1 attack blind Mage - Screw this, I Benign Transposition in the Rogue Rogue - I make a full TWF sneak attack! Fighter - Where the hell did this come from? Egads, I open my eyes and fight back Mage - I cast Blindness/Blinding Color Surge/Glitterdust/Greater Invisibility (on rogue)
redraven 03-27-07, 08:00 PM	A character can close his eyes, attack and open them again before anybody else acts (except for readied actions), those are the rules! Oh? Where are the rules on closing and opening one's eyes? While I agree that closing or opening one's eyes should be a free action, I do not agree that one should be able to do both in the same round. Perhaps as an Immediate Action instead? Alternatively, I could see allowing such a thing as long as the free action to close one's eyes in combat provokes attacks of opportunity. This is based on arguments for game balance, which is precisely what you are arguing about in this case - unless you can pull out a page number or quote from the SRD, do not presume "those are the rules." The rules mention nothing about opening and closing one's eyes multiple times in the same round.