Combat Basics [Archive] - Wizards Community

Combat Basics [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
macduffman
07-23-07, 04:44 PM Hi!

I had a disagreement with my DM the other day-- not uncommon, since I studied the 3.0 books harder than my college texts, and we play in 3.5, so sometimes I don't make the transition perfectly well. That said, I've got a "post-disagreement research" record of about 8 for 10... of the 10 times we disagree, 8 of them I'll find out that I was right. :eek:

Anyway, the other night we had quite a few, so I was just checking up on these basics... anybody care to enlighten me?:confused:

1)Casting in melee
*I thought that casting in melee pretty much always provoked an attack of opportunity, and even such things as casting defensively, combat casting, etc, only give you bonuses to your Concentration check. Am I wrong here? This is not a very specific question, I know, since there are many things out there that modify this.

2)Mighty composite longbows
*Unless you've got some kind of feat, the standard use of this weapon is: use your Dex bonus to hit, apply your Strength bonus (based on the bonus of the bow) to damage. Right? He is saying that you use both your Strength and Dex to hit. We've got a 9th level ranger with a +2 composite bow whose attack bonus (based on stats and maybe point blank shot) is like 18 or 19... something's not right there.

3)Base attack bonus (this one bleeds into the next one)
*So, say I'm a level 6 fighter (I'm not). My BAB is like +6/+1, right? So I'm in battle, taking the full attack with my bow, I roll my first and miss, and I say "OK, going with my second attack," and he says I need Rapid Shot. I tell him, no, Rapid Shot doesn't mean you can't use your extra attacks iwth a bow, it means you get an additional attack at a penalty to hit. Big difference there!

4)Ranged weapons
*His response is that using a ranged weapon is a full-round action. Not something like reloading a crossbow here, just using a bow. OK, so, I might be wrong about the casting in melee, but I'm pretty darn sure I'm right about all these other ones. I try not to argue with him in-game, since he's being cool enough to run a game for us.

I've looked in the books for some conclusive evidence, but the thing is, some of these things are so absurd that they're not mentioned one way or another (i.e. "using a bow is a standard action" or "using a bow is a full-round action"). Anybody have any wisdom here? Thanks!
mvincent
07-23-07, 04:52 PM Am I wrong here?Yup.

"Casting Defensively (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#castingDefensively)
If you want to cast a spell without provoking any attacks of opportunity, you must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the level of the spell you’re casting) to succeed. You lose the spell if you fail"

2)He is saying that you use both your Strength and Dex to hit.He's incorrect.
"A composite longbow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#longbowComposite) can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow"

3) Rapid Shot doesn't mean you can't use your extra attacks iwth a bow, it means you get an additional attack at a penalty to hit.Correct. Extra attacks from base attack bonus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_baseattackbonus&alpha=B) are not restricted to melee.

4) *His response is that using a ranged weapon is a full-round action.He's incorrect. Ranged attacks are listed on the Standard Actions table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions)
tarkin
07-23-07, 04:57 PM 1)Casting in melee

If you cast defensively and suceed, you do not provoke an AoO.

2)Mighty composite longbows
You use your Dex to hit, strength for damage, upto the rating limit of the bow.

3)Base attack bonus

Technically a 6th level fighter has a BAB of 6, with an iterative attack of +1

But you DO get a 2nd attack, with NO feats neccessary if your fighter is spending a full round action.

The feat Rapid Shot (or TWF if using a melee attack) would add an ADDITIONAL attack at your max BAB (so your 6th level fighter would get 3 that round) , but all your attacks would get a penalty to hit

4)Ranged weapons

You can ALWAYS make a single attack a standard action. That is for melee or ranged attacks.

If you wish to attack MORE than one time, then you need to use a full round action.

For crossbows you will often need to do a Move Action to reload, so you do a Move action + a standard action (that is NOT full round action - it is a move plus a standard) A Heavy crossbow is a full round action normally, so you fire once, then reload for a round, repeat.

Feats reduce the crossbow loading time.

Reloading an arrow for a longbow/composite bow is a free action.
Rasmus Wagner
07-23-07, 05:33 PM Your GM is so wrong on ranged attacks I can't even begin to comprehend it.

Also, crossbows are fashion accesories for low-level non-elf sorcerers and psions (and NPCs), and that's just about it.
UnknownMourner
07-23-07, 06:17 PM 1)Casting in melee
*I thought that casting in melee pretty much always provoked an attack of opportunity, and even such things as casting defensively, combat casting, etc, only give you bonuses to your Concentration check. Am I wrong here? This is not a very specific question, I know, since there are many things out there that modify this.

Casting provokes.
If you take the risk to cast defensively, you get to try a conc roll to not have the spell fizzle, either way, pass or fail, no AoO. Been that way both editions. Combat casting just gives a +4 to that Conc roll, and is generally inferior to Skill Focus (Concentration) which gives +3 to EVERY use of Concentration. The only use is if you stack the two.

There is a special rule for touch attacks that lets you cast, move, then deliver a touch. This is one way to avoid the AoO, but only affects such as CLW and other touch spells. Also, the 5 foot step is the caster's friend, unless he's cornered, forked, or under reach. YOur enemy can also ready his move to follow you, but that wastes his standard action.

2)Mighty composite longbows
*Unless you've got some kind of feat, the standard use of this weapon is: use your Dex bonus to hit, apply your Strength bonus (based on the bonus of the bow) to damage. Right? He is saying that you use both your Strength and Dex to hit. We've got a 9th level ranger with a +2 composite bow whose attack bonus (based on stats and maybe point blank shot) is like 18 or 19... something's not right there.

Dex to hit. Strength penalties only (if any to damage). Composite allows you to apply Str to damage up to the max of the bow. IIRC, the Str of the composite also becomes the new minimum STR to use the bow.

Never heard of Str+Dex on to hit with a bow, except maybe a screwy third party feat.

3)Base attack bonus (this one bleeds into the next one)
*So, say I'm a level 6 fighter (I'm not). My BAB is like +6/+1, right? So I'm in battle, taking the full attack with my bow, I roll my first and miss, and I say "OK, going with my second attack," and he says I need Rapid Shot. I tell him, no, Rapid Shot doesn't mean you can't use your extra attacks iwth a bow, it means you get an additional attack at a penalty to hit. Big difference there!

Missile Weapons that use ammo are auto-loaders, shoot away, you are right. With quick draw, thrown weapons can do this too. Crossbows cannot however due to the action needed to load it.

4)Ranged weapons
*His response is that using a ranged weapon is a full-round action. Not something like reloading a crossbow here, just using a bow. OK, so, I might be wrong about the casting in melee, but I'm pretty darn sure I'm right about all these other ones. I try not to argue with him in-game, since he's being cool enough to run a game for us.

He's wrong. You are right. It's basic player's handbook. All of your questions are actually.
Nom
07-25-07, 12:13 AM 1)Casting in melee

If you cast defensively and suceed, you do not provoke an AoO.If you cast defensively, you don't provoke an AoO at all. However, if you fail the Concentration check then you lose the spell.
3)Base attack bonus (this one bleeds into the next one)
*So, say I'm a level 6 fighter (I'm not). My BAB is like +6/+1, right? So I'm in battle, taking the full attack with my bow, I roll my first and miss, and I say "OK, going with my second attack," and he says I need Rapid Shot. I tell him, no, Rapid Shot doesn't mean you can't use your extra attacks iwth a bow, it means you get an additional attack at a penalty to hit. Big difference there!On a full attack, a character with +6/+1 BAB may make one attack (with a weapon of your choice, including bow) at +6 +other mods, and make attack (with a weapon of your choice, including bow) at +1 +other mods.

"With a weapon of your choice" might be affected by circumstance, such as actually getting that weapon into hand (a move action without Quick Draw) or being out of ammo (reloading a bow or drawing a shuriken is a free action, reloading crossbows and slings is normally at least a move action).

Rapid shot grants an extra attack that must be ranged. It is at your full BAB (ie +6), but applies a -2 penalty to any and every attack made that round (including the bonus attack and AoOs). Note that it is perfectly legal to (say) shoot with your bow twice (rapid shot, normal) at +6 -2 +other mods and then Quick Draw a sword for your last attack (at +1 -2 +other mods). Only the extra attack must be ranged, but usually you will make all attacks ranged.

4)Ranged weapons
*His response is that using a ranged weapon is a full-round action.Only if you make more than one attack.

Barring unusual situations, making a single attack (melee / ranged / unarmed / ...) is a standard action, and making more than one attack is a full round action. Extra attacks (haste, iterative, Rapid Shot, flurry) count as "more than one attack" and thus require a full round action. Certain attacks (AoOs, Cleave and Improved Trip bonus attacks) are outside the normal sequence of play and don't require any action as long as you meet the conditions.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
macduffman 07-23-07, 04:44 PM	Hi! I had a disagreement with my DM the other day-- not uncommon, since I studied the 3.0 books harder than my college texts, and we play in 3.5, so sometimes I don't make the transition perfectly well. That said, I've got a "post-disagreement research" record of about 8 for 10... of the 10 times we disagree, 8 of them I'll find out that I was right. :eek: Anyway, the other night we had quite a few, so I was just checking up on these basics... anybody care to enlighten me?:confused: 1)Casting in melee I thought that casting in melee pretty much always provoked an attack of opportunity, and even such things as casting defensively, combat casting, etc, only give you bonuses to your Concentration check. Am I wrong here? This is not a very specific question, I know, since there are many things out there that modify this. 2)Mighty composite longbows Unless you've got some kind of feat, the standard use of this weapon is: use your Dex bonus to hit, apply your Strength bonus (based on the bonus of the bow) to damage. Right? He is saying that you use both your Strength and Dex to hit. We've got a 9th level ranger with a +2 composite bow whose attack bonus (based on stats and maybe point blank shot) is like 18 or 19... something's not right there. 3)Base attack bonus (this one bleeds into the next one) So, say I'm a level 6 fighter (I'm not). My BAB is like +6/+1, right? So I'm in battle, taking the full attack with my bow, I roll my first and miss, and I say "OK, going with my second attack," and he says I need Rapid Shot. I tell him, no, Rapid Shot doesn't mean you can't use your extra attacks iwth a bow, it means you get an additional attack at a penalty to hit. Big difference there! 4)Ranged weapons His response is that using a ranged weapon is a full-round action. Not something like reloading a crossbow here, just using a bow. OK, so, I might be wrong about the casting in melee, but I'm pretty darn sure I'm right about all these other ones. I try not to argue with him in-game, since he's being cool enough to run a game for us. I've looked in the books for some conclusive evidence, but the thing is, some of these things are so absurd that they're not mentioned one way or another (i.e. "using a bow is a standard action" or "using a bow is a full-round action"). Anybody have any wisdom here? Thanks!
mvincent 07-23-07, 04:52 PM	Am I wrong here?Yup. "Casting Defensively (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#castingDefensively) If you want to cast a spell without provoking any attacks of opportunity, you must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the level of the spell you’re casting) to succeed. You lose the spell if you fail" 2)He is saying that you use both your Strength and Dex to hit.He's incorrect. "A composite longbow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#longbowComposite) can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow" 3) Rapid Shot doesn't mean you can't use your extra attacks iwth a bow, it means you get an additional attack at a penalty to hit.Correct. Extra attacks from base attack bonus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_baseattackbonus&alpha=B) are not restricted to melee. 4) *His response is that using a ranged weapon is a full-round action.He's incorrect. Ranged attacks are listed on the Standard Actions table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#standardActions)
tarkin 07-23-07, 04:57 PM	1)Casting in melee If you cast defensively and suceed, you do not provoke an AoO. 2)Mighty composite longbows You use your Dex to hit, strength for damage, upto the rating limit of the bow. 3)Base attack bonus Technically a 6th level fighter has a BAB of 6, with an iterative attack of +1 But you DO get a 2nd attack, with NO feats neccessary if your fighter is spending a full round action. The feat Rapid Shot (or TWF if using a melee attack) would add an ADDITIONAL attack at your max BAB (so your 6th level fighter would get 3 that round) , but all your attacks would get a penalty to hit 4)Ranged weapons You can ALWAYS make a single attack a standard action. That is for melee or ranged attacks. If you wish to attack MORE than one time, then you need to use a full round action. For crossbows you will often need to do a Move Action to reload, so you do a Move action + a standard action (that is NOT full round action - it is a move plus a standard) A Heavy crossbow is a full round action normally, so you fire once, then reload for a round, repeat. Feats reduce the crossbow loading time. Reloading an arrow for a longbow/composite bow is a free action.
Rasmus Wagner 07-23-07, 05:33 PM	Your GM is so wrong on ranged attacks I can't even begin to comprehend it. Also, crossbows are fashion accesories for low-level non-elf sorcerers and psions (and NPCs), and that's just about it.
UnknownMourner 07-23-07, 06:17 PM	1)Casting in melee I thought that casting in melee pretty much always provoked an attack of opportunity, and even such things as casting defensively, combat casting, etc, only give you bonuses to your Concentration check. Am I wrong here? This is not a very specific question, I know, since there are many things out there that modify this. Casting provokes. If you take the risk to cast defensively, you get to try a conc roll to not have the spell fizzle, either way, pass or fail, no AoO. Been that way both editions. Combat casting just gives a +4 to that Conc roll, and is generally inferior to Skill Focus (Concentration) which gives +3 to EVERY use of Concentration. The only use is if you stack the two. There is a special rule for touch attacks that lets you cast, move, then deliver a touch. This is one way to avoid the AoO, but only affects such as CLW and other touch spells. Also, the 5 foot step is the caster's friend, unless he's cornered, forked, or under reach. YOur enemy can also ready his move to follow you, but that wastes his standard action. 2)Mighty composite longbows Unless you've got some kind of feat, the standard use of this weapon is: use your Dex bonus to hit, apply your Strength bonus (based on the bonus of the bow) to damage. Right? He is saying that you use both your Strength and Dex to hit. We've got a 9th level ranger with a +2 composite bow whose attack bonus (based on stats and maybe point blank shot) is like 18 or 19... something's not right there. Dex to hit. Strength penalties only (if any to damage). Composite allows you to apply Str to damage up to the max of the bow. IIRC, the Str of the composite also becomes the new minimum STR to use the bow. Never heard of Str+Dex on to hit with a bow, except maybe a screwy third party feat. 3)Base attack bonus (this one bleeds into the next one) So, say I'm a level 6 fighter (I'm not). My BAB is like +6/+1, right? So I'm in battle, taking the full attack with my bow, I roll my first and miss, and I say "OK, going with my second attack," and he says I need Rapid Shot. I tell him, no, Rapid Shot doesn't mean you can't use your extra attacks iwth a bow, it means you get an additional attack at a penalty to hit. Big difference there! Missile Weapons that use ammo are auto-loaders, shoot away, you are right. With quick draw, thrown weapons can do this too. Crossbows cannot however due to the action needed to load it. 4)Ranged weapons His response is that using a ranged weapon is a full-round action. Not something like reloading a crossbow here, just using a bow. OK, so, I might be wrong about the casting in melee, but I'm pretty darn sure I'm right about all these other ones. I try not to argue with him in-game, since he's being cool enough to run a game for us. He's wrong. You are right. It's basic player's handbook. All of your questions are actually.
Nom 07-25-07, 12:13 AM	1)Casting in melee If you cast defensively and suceed, you do not provoke an AoO.If you cast defensively, you don't provoke an AoO at all. However, if you fail the Concentration check then you lose the spell. 3)Base attack bonus (this one bleeds into the next one) So, say I'm a level 6 fighter (I'm not). My BAB is like +6/+1, right? So I'm in battle, taking the full attack with my bow, I roll my first and miss, and I say "OK, going with my second attack," and he says I need Rapid Shot. I tell him, no, Rapid Shot doesn't mean you can't use your extra attacks iwth a bow, it means you get an additional attack at a penalty to hit. Big difference there!On a full attack, a character with +6/+1 BAB may make one attack (with a weapon of your choice, including bow) at +6 +other mods, and make attack (with a weapon of your choice, including bow) at +1 +other mods. "With a weapon of your choice" might be affected by circumstance, such as actually getting that weapon into hand (a move action without Quick Draw) or being out of ammo (reloading a bow or drawing a shuriken is a free action, reloading crossbows and slings is normally at least a move action). Rapid shot grants an extra attack that must be ranged. It is at your full BAB (ie +6), but applies a -2 penalty to any and every attack made that round (including the bonus attack and AoOs). Note that it is perfectly legal to (say) shoot with your bow twice (rapid shot, normal) at +6 -2 +other mods and then Quick Draw a sword for your last attack (at +1 -2 +other mods). Only the extra attack must be ranged, but usually you will make all attacks ranged. 4)Ranged weapons His response is that using a ranged weapon is a full-round action.Only if you make more than one attack. Barring unusual situations, making a single attack (melee / ranged / unarmed / ...) is a standard action, and making more than one attack is a full round action. Extra attacks (haste, iterative, Rapid Shot, flurry) count as "more than one attack" and thus require a full round action. Certain attacks (AoOs, Cleave and Improved Trip bonus attacks) are outside the normal sequence of play and don't require any action as long as you meet the conditions.