Combat clarification on two weapons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Combat clarification on two weapons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lafarallin
08-03-06, 02:27 PM Just want to clarify the rules a bit. If an 18th level warrior has four attacks and a shield in the off-hand......is this correct concerning a full attack round:

Could take four attacks with sword....

Could take three attacks with sword and one shield bash.. -4/-8 penalty without two weapon fighting?

If fighter had claws could he take three attacks with sword and one with claws.. -4/-8??

If fighter had touch attack...three attacks with sword and one with touch attack.. -4/-8??
SilentOne
08-03-06, 02:41 PM First one, four normal attacks

2nd - he's gimping himself. Using an off-hand weapon gives you another attack, so he should get 4 normal and a bash. Given he's only doing 3+bash, I'd probably let him do it normally, no penalty. Otherwise, ya, penalties.

3rd - he gets four attacks and a natural attack at -5, so -0/-5. Natural attacks rock like that, but he can only get 1 attack, ever.

4th - if he's holding a charge, then it's rolled as one of his normal attacks, no penalty. if it's something else... those usually take actions, so he'd probably not be able to do this. i'd need more specifics
Callahan
08-03-06, 02:42 PM you don't need to sacrafice an attack in order to make an off-hand or natural attack.

so in all cases he could make four attacks and the extra off hand attack (be it with shild or natural weapon) at the apropriate penalty.

Though you need to be clear on the touch attack because some take a partial action to use.
Lafarallin
08-03-06, 02:53 PM First one, four normal attacks

2nd - he's gimping himself. Using an off-hand weapon gives you another attack, so he should get 4 normal and a bash. Given he's only doing 3+bash, I'd probably let him do it normally, no penalty. Otherwise, ya, penalties.

3rd - he gets four attacks and a natural attack at -5, so -0/-5. Natural attacks rock like that, but he can only get 1 attack, ever.

Where do you find the rules for the -5 on natural attack and an extra attack.

I'll sum up my character and get some feedback on attack options. Human fighter with claws (Ravenloft curse) that is now a death knight.

I have four attacks BAB and use a longsword. I have improved shield bash. I have claws now and death knight touch attack. I'd like to use my touch attack to drain a point of constitution when I start in battle because of a feat called "Necrotic Reserve". Basically if I drain constitution I don't immediately die at 0 or less hit points.

I guess I'm trying to figure out what my combat options are. I'm new to 3.5 (having only played 2nd Edition) so need some help here. If you could point me to the rules for natural attacks where you get extra attack at 0/-5 I would appreciate it. I do realize I can't use a shield and get a touch/natural attack.
Lafarallin
08-04-06, 12:57 AM As an 18th level figther with four attacks......could I attack with four sword swings then take a touch attack with an off hand with -4/-8 penalties for two weapon style (non-proficient)?

Does a touch attack count as a standard action (so no other attacks)? If you have four attacks could you take four touch attacks? What exactly are the rules for touch attacks?
Radijs
08-04-06, 02:37 AM Touch attacks are in most respects just like normal weapons.
Making a single touch attack in a round counts as a standard action but using the full-attack option you can make as many iterative touch attacks as your BAB allows.

With your longsword, shield bash and claws its like this:

You get 4 attacks with your longsword, you can use your shield to bash but if you do so you incurr the normal penalties for two-weapon fighting.
Its going to be hard for you to use your claw attacks as secondary weapons because you're holding a sword in one claw and a shield in the other.
If one of your claws was free you could use that claw to make a secondary attack as part of your full attack and you'd take a -5 penalty on your claw attack only.

From the SRD:

Touch Attacks: Some attacks disregard armor, including shields and natural armor. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn’t include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally.

Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponentĀ’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.

Holding the Charge: If you donĀ’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you arenĀ’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesnĀ’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
Nom
08-07-06, 09:02 AM Just want to clarify the rules a bit. If an 18th level warrior has four attacks and a shield in the off-hand......is this correct concerning a full attack round:

Could take four attacks with sword....
Yes, at a cumulative -5 for each attack after the first (ie net BAB of +18/+13/+8/+3). The extra attacks are referred to as iterative attacks.

Could take three attacks with sword and one shield bash.. -4/-8 penalty without two weapon fighting?
Using TWF, it's four iterative attacks with the sword and one TWF attack with the shield. Penalties are either -4/-8 (light shield) or -6/-10 (heavy shield).

He could also just swap a shield attack in place of an iterative sword attack and make 4 attacks. The shield attack suffers an additional -4 off-hand penalty.

TWF only applies if you use the off-hand weapon for an extra attack. Normally, you make 4 attacks with any "manufactured" weapons you have to hand. Most characters make all 4 attacks with their single best weapon.

If fighter had claws could he take three attacks with sword and one with claws.. -4/-8??
Natural weapon attacks are in addition to manufactured weapon attacks, and don't count as TWF. However, you can't use the same limb/appendage to make a natural and a manufactured attack. Natural weapons never gain iterative attacks and always base their attacks on full BAB. Natural weapons can be classified as primary or secondary. Secondary natural weapons only gain 1/2 Str to damage (like off-hand attacks) and suffer an additional -5 penalty (from full BAB).

If you mix manufactured and natural attacks, all the natural weapons are treated as secondary, even your primary weapons.

Let's say he has 2 claws (primary natural weapon) and a bite (secondary natural weapon). Normally, he can make four (iterative) attacks with the sword and a secondary natural attack (-5 attack from full BAB, 1/2 Str to damage) with the bite. If he dropped his shield, he could make four attacks with the sword and a secondary natural attack with each of claw and bite. If he dropped his sword as well, he could make 2 primary claw attacks (no BAB penalty, full Str bonus to damage) and a secondary (-5 attack, 1/2 Str bonus to damage) with the bite.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lafarallin 08-03-06, 02:27 PM	Just want to clarify the rules a bit. If an 18th level warrior has four attacks and a shield in the off-hand......is this correct concerning a full attack round: Could take four attacks with sword.... Could take three attacks with sword and one shield bash.. -4/-8 penalty without two weapon fighting? If fighter had claws could he take three attacks with sword and one with claws.. -4/-8?? If fighter had touch attack...three attacks with sword and one with touch attack.. -4/-8??
SilentOne 08-03-06, 02:41 PM	First one, four normal attacks 2nd - he's gimping himself. Using an off-hand weapon gives you another attack, so he should get 4 normal and a bash. Given he's only doing 3+bash, I'd probably let him do it normally, no penalty. Otherwise, ya, penalties. 3rd - he gets four attacks and a natural attack at -5, so -0/-5. Natural attacks rock like that, but he can only get 1 attack, ever. 4th - if he's holding a charge, then it's rolled as one of his normal attacks, no penalty. if it's something else... those usually take actions, so he'd probably not be able to do this. i'd need more specifics
Callahan 08-03-06, 02:42 PM	you don't need to sacrafice an attack in order to make an off-hand or natural attack. so in all cases he could make four attacks and the extra off hand attack (be it with shild or natural weapon) at the apropriate penalty. Though you need to be clear on the touch attack because some take a partial action to use.
Lafarallin 08-03-06, 02:53 PM	First one, four normal attacks 2nd - he's gimping himself. Using an off-hand weapon gives you another attack, so he should get 4 normal and a bash. Given he's only doing 3+bash, I'd probably let him do it normally, no penalty. Otherwise, ya, penalties. 3rd - he gets four attacks and a natural attack at -5, so -0/-5. Natural attacks rock like that, but he can only get 1 attack, ever. Where do you find the rules for the -5 on natural attack and an extra attack. I'll sum up my character and get some feedback on attack options. Human fighter with claws (Ravenloft curse) that is now a death knight. I have four attacks BAB and use a longsword. I have improved shield bash. I have claws now and death knight touch attack. I'd like to use my touch attack to drain a point of constitution when I start in battle because of a feat called "Necrotic Reserve". Basically if I drain constitution I don't immediately die at 0 or less hit points. I guess I'm trying to figure out what my combat options are. I'm new to 3.5 (having only played 2nd Edition) so need some help here. If you could point me to the rules for natural attacks where you get extra attack at 0/-5 I would appreciate it. I do realize I can't use a shield and get a touch/natural attack.
Lafarallin 08-04-06, 12:57 AM	As an 18th level figther with four attacks......could I attack with four sword swings then take a touch attack with an off hand with -4/-8 penalties for two weapon style (non-proficient)? Does a touch attack count as a standard action (so no other attacks)? If you have four attacks could you take four touch attacks? What exactly are the rules for touch attacks?
Radijs 08-04-06, 02:37 AM	Touch attacks are in most respects just like normal weapons. Making a single touch attack in a round counts as a standard action but using the full-attack option you can make as many iterative touch attacks as your BAB allows. With your longsword, shield bash and claws its like this: You get 4 attacks with your longsword, you can use your shield to bash but if you do so you incurr the normal penalties for two-weapon fighting. Its going to be hard for you to use your claw attacks as secondary weapons because you're holding a sword in one claw and a shield in the other. If one of your claws was free you could use that claw to make a secondary attack as part of your full attack and you'd take a -5 penalty on your claw attack only. From the SRD: Touch Attacks: Some attacks disregard armor, including shields and natural armor. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn’t include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally. Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponentĀ’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally. Holding the Charge: If you donĀ’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you arenĀ’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesnĀ’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
Nom 08-07-06, 09:02 AM	Just want to clarify the rules a bit. If an 18th level warrior has four attacks and a shield in the off-hand......is this correct concerning a full attack round: Could take four attacks with sword.... Yes, at a cumulative -5 for each attack after the first (ie net BAB of +18/+13/+8/+3). The extra attacks are referred to as iterative attacks. Could take three attacks with sword and one shield bash.. -4/-8 penalty without two weapon fighting? Using TWF, it's four iterative attacks with the sword and one TWF attack with the shield. Penalties are either -4/-8 (light shield) or -6/-10 (heavy shield). He could also just swap a shield attack in place of an iterative sword attack and make 4 attacks. The shield attack suffers an additional -4 off-hand penalty. TWF only applies if you use the off-hand weapon for an extra attack. Normally, you make 4 attacks with any "manufactured" weapons you have to hand. Most characters make all 4 attacks with their single best weapon. If fighter had claws could he take three attacks with sword and one with claws.. -4/-8?? Natural weapon attacks are in addition to manufactured weapon attacks, and don't count as TWF. However, you can't use the same limb/appendage to make a natural and a manufactured attack. Natural weapons never gain iterative attacks and always base their attacks on full BAB. Natural weapons can be classified as primary or secondary. Secondary natural weapons only gain 1/2 Str to damage (like off-hand attacks) and suffer an additional -5 penalty (from full BAB). If you mix manufactured and natural attacks, all the natural weapons are treated as secondary, even your primary weapons. Let's say he has 2 claws (primary natural weapon) and a bite (secondary natural weapon). Normally, he can make four (iterative) attacks with the sword and a secondary natural attack (-5 attack from full BAB, 1/2 Str to damage) with the bite. If he dropped his shield, he could make four attacks with the sword and a secondary natural attack with each of claw and bite. If he dropped his sword as well, he could make 2 primary claw attacks (no BAB penalty, full Str bonus to damage) and a secondary (-5 attack, 1/2 Str bonus to damage) with the bite.