Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Morphius 01-16-07, 08:08 PM	I've found, with many of my players, that combat generally takes about 2-4 rounds, which isn't too bad, but that's the equivalent of a 10-25 second fight. I'd rather have fights last a little bit longer, especially big "boss" battles, like the heroes against a villain NPC. Unfortunately, most NPCs have horrible hit points, since their Challenge Rating is equal to their level, and if I go too far beyond that, they'll do too much damage. So, my problem is, for both players and NPCS... too much damage, not enough HP. I've heard some suggestions like giving bonus HP and stuff, but what do you guys think?
DM Zoc 01-16-07, 08:10 PM	You could go back to the old ways, where a round of combat takes a minute instead of six seconds. It might help with the epicness of it all, I dunno.
Drodain 01-16-07, 08:13 PM	Bonus hp is good, but that may make the battle to long for your PCs to last. At lower levels it's hard to get the battles to last long. You could also try doing different battles than stand and fight. Have the BBEG run through rooms, talk long winded talks, do something to take up time and make it seem more cinematic. You could also increase everyones base AC by +5, that would make it harder for everyone to hit everyone. Just ideas.
Morphius 01-16-07, 08:31 PM	But then there are spells that don't require AC and stuff. But, honestly, there are people dishing out massive amounts of damage per round, and even barbarians and warblades'll go down in two rounds. I mean, at 10th level, let's say three characters are fighting one boss, and dealing an average of 30 damage per round per character, and that's being VERY conservative, taking AC and damage reduction into account. Now, the boss has 150 HP, and so it takes less than two rounds. It'd take less than three rounds even if the boss had 200 HP.
TheCobra 01-16-07, 08:34 PM	Yeah, D&D combat does tend to be very quick in terms of game time. At the table, though, a round can last an hour. So while I feel battles should be longer, I'm not sure I could stand it.
Centauri 01-16-07, 08:37 PM	But then there are spells that don't require AC and stuff. But, honestly, there are people dishing out massive amounts of damage per round, and even barbarians and warblades'll go down in two rounds. I mean, at 10th level, let's say three characters are fighting one boss, and dealing an average of 30 damage per round per character, and that's being VERY conservative, taking AC and damage reduction into account. Now, the boss has 150 HP, and so it takes less than two rounds. It'd take less than three rounds even if the boss had 200 HP. If they're hitting with their weapons or spells on every round, something's up. Give us more details. Is the enemy failing saves, or getting a lot of weapon hits, or what? What if you concentrated less on adding hit points and more on spells and abilities that give him immunities or something. Also, you can probably toss in some henchmen without driving the encounter level up too high. Just make them somewhat clever and try not to place them right next to the "boss," so they're not just cloven through or swallowed in an area effect. Give them Protection From Good so that they're not immediately subverted. Stuff like that is all I can suggest without knowing more. Anyway it sounds like you're playing at a much higher level than I'm used to.
Nephlite 01-16-07, 09:04 PM	I've found, with many of my players, that combat gneerally takes about 2-4 rounds, which isn't too bad, but that's the equivalent of a 10-25 second fight. I'd rather have fights last a little bit longer, especially big "boss" battles, like the heroes against a villain NPC. Unfortunately, most NPCs have horrible hit points, since their Challenge Rating is equal to their level, and if I go too far beyond that, they'll do too much damage. So, my problem is, for both players and NPCS... too much damage, not enough HP. I've heard some suggestions like giving bonus HP and stuff, but what do you guys think? You could add multiple weak dudes. Like 10 level 1 warriors (standard array or elite or better): Give masterwork gear so do'nt giuve alot of money when killed; they don't deal alot but unless multiple fireballs (or similar effects) they last a round more o two since so many. But they won't hit often unless you give the warriors potions. Potions like resist elements (fire if fireball is common), Bull's Strength, etc.
Morphius 01-16-07, 09:06 PM	Well, a level 13 NPC fighter has an AC of 25 and a touch AC of 13. His save bonuses are +10/+5/+5. A level 10 PC fighter will probably have at least +17 on attack rolls (+10 base attack, +4 for strength, +1 for weapon focus, +2 for weapon) and a +8 on damage rolls (+4 for strength, +2 for weapon specialization, +2 for weapon). That's assuming a +2 weapon and a strength, modified or otherwise, of 18, which is pretty easy to come by with items and stat increases by 10th level. A level 10 PC rogue will probably have at least +13 on attack rolls (+7 base attack, +4 for dexterity, +2 for weapon), not counting the +2 he'll get for flanking his opponent (which he'll obviously do), and then will have +5d6 sneak attack with each hit. A level 10 PC wizard will probably have at least +7 on ranged touch attack rolls (+5 base attack, +2 for dexterity) and be able to force the fighter to make saves (including Reflex and Will saves) at a DC of at least 14 + the spell level, not counting any feats or an Intelligence higher than 18. All of these are very conservative estimates, and even swapping out the boss fighter for a warblade or something (lower AC, actually) or increasing hit points won't do much. And this is assuming that the PCs are relatively weak, as well. Assuming each PC does an average of 20 damage per round (the fighter can do about 13.5 with one hit, the rogue can do at least 20 per hit with his sneak attack, and the wizard can do 17.5 damage per round with just a volley of magic missiles, and those can be quickened by level 10), the boss is down in less than two rounds. No fudging or powergaming required.
Tyler Do'Urden 01-16-07, 09:14 PM	High ACs. Take a look at your players' attack bonuses and put them up against creatures with ACs they can only hit on an 18 or so. If the issue is spells, consider constructs, creatures with spell resistance, things like that. When you see a fight scene in a movie where they exchange hundreds of attacks an parries, it's because they're both fighting defensively and Dodging and can only hit eachother on a 20. I tend to use fairly high ACs and the fights seem to last closer to 30 to a minute (5-10 rnds). It's a bit more cinematic, a bit more real. Alternatively, disable the PCs in some way that limits their damage output. Ability damage is good for that, diseases, poisons.
Nephlite 01-16-07, 09:15 PM	Well, a level 13 NPC fighter has an AC of 25 and a touch AC of 13. His save bonuses are +10/+5/+5. A level 10 PC fighter will probably have at least +17 on attack rolls (+10 base attack, +4 for strength, +1 for weapon focus, +2 for weapon) and a +8 on damage rolls (+4 for strength, +2 for weapon specialization, +2 for weapon). That's assuming a +2 weapon and a strength, modified or otherwise, of 18, which is pretty easy to come by with items and stat increases by 10th level. A level 10 PC rogue will probably have at least +13 on attack rolls (+7 base attack, +4 for dexterity, +2 for weapon), not counting the +2 he'll get for flanking his opponent (which he'll obviously do), and then will have +5d6 sneak attack with each hit. A level 10 PC wizard will probably have at least +7 on ranged touch attack rolls (+5 base attack, +2 for dexterity) and be able to force the fighter to make saves (including Reflex and Will saves) at a DC of at least 14 + the spell level, not counting any feats or an Intelligence higher than 18. All of these are very conservative estimates, and even swapping out the boss fighter for a warblade or something (lower AC, actually) or increasing hit points won't do much. And this is assuming that the PCs are relatively weak, as well. Assuming each PC does an average of 20 damage per round (the fighter can do about 13.5 with one hit, the rogue can do at least 20 per hit with his sneak attack, and the wizard can do 17.5 damage per round with just a volley of magic missiles, and those can be quickened by level 10), the boss is down in less than two rounds. No fudging or powergaming required. Why not give the NPC cheap magic items: 1) Brooch of shielding (blocks 1 Missile per charge, when runs out destroyed). 2) Mithral Full plate for Mr. Warblade/Barbarian/other Meduim user (count as meduim for Proficiency according to FAQ). 3) Give the NPC potions instead of other gear listed (they are consumed so used up). 4) If Built up UMD like scrolls: lots of ways to built up AC with scrolls or potions.
DungeonMaster 01-16-07, 09:30 PM	I actually very much enjoy the current pace of combat. Real life combat ends just as quickly once initiated. With the current rules you can't really avoid this, it's the way the rules are structured. If you want things to last longer then you need to significantly modify the rules: Give maximum hp straight across the board. Give everyone and everything a +4 base save to all saves.
TheCobra 01-16-07, 09:38 PM	Real life combat ends just as quickly once initiated. What kind of real-life combat? Some types do, some types don't. It completely depends.
Dragoloth 01-16-07, 10:19 PM	I ran a short AGoT campaign which has a different combat system. Everyone gets defense rolls, if they want to defend. You may wish not to defend because each defense roll against a grunt in a round lowers your defense by 1 possibly leaving you open to an attach from a more powerful character. If your interisted I can explain the combat system.
DarkRhystar 01-16-07, 10:34 PM	Sounds like the OP is using more single opponent type battles. 4-6 actions per round versus one tends to do that. Groups of slightly weaker enemies are better than a single tough enemy.
GhostStepper 01-16-07, 10:57 PM	Sounds like the OP is using more single opponent type battles. 4-6 actions per round versus one tends to do that. Groups of slightly weaker enemies are better than a single tough enemy. Truth. BBEGs always get mugged if they fight the party all alone. Never have a major badguy taking on the party all by himself if you want the fight to last more than a few rounds. Another tactic is to make the villian hard to hit. At low levels the best way may be to put him on a balcony, a cliff, on the roof of a wagon, across a pit a lava, etc... Give him a bunch of cronies that engage the PCs in melee while he hangs back. At higher levels there are many spells that can make the villian more enduring, whether he casts them himself, uses a spell casting underling or activates a magic item. A BBEG should be flying, invisible, behind a globe of invulnerability or employing one of a myriad of options to prevent every single PC from whomping him every round continuously. If all else fails ive found grafts to be a valuable tool to toughen NPCs without giving them a ton of loot. The Fiend Folio, Lords of Madness and Magic of Eberron are just a few books that have grafts with which to buff your badies. Give them grafted on armor or claws or tentacles or eyestalks or whatever. They will certainly be tougher and when the PCs drop them they will have no way or desire to rob them of their 50,000 gp undead arm grafts.
Morphius 01-16-07, 11:04 PM	Well, normally, I do pit the PCs against multiple weaker foes, but sometimes I'd like a powerful NPC to take them all on in a fight. I'd like the fight to be difficult (but not impossible) and to last a while. I've thought of bonus HP (and I'm still tossing that idea around), but I'm not sure that'll do it. I also want to make sure that the players survive the first few rounds as well. So any ideas at all'd be helpful. And I'd like the NPC to be a human (or humanoid) character, same as the players.
GhostStepper 01-16-07, 11:51 PM	It depends on how your NPCs are biting the dust. In my 10th level group last weekend we came up against an advanced avatar of lolth and our frenzied berserker started combat right next to her (she had assumed another shape and had lured him close to tell him something). He won the initiative and handily destroyed her in one turn by himself. There where wraiths about that gave the party more trouble, but the main bad guy that the DM had planned to give us an epic battle got dropped right away. The problem in our group is that we are really strong in melee (with a frenzied berserker and to a lesser extent my sneak attack specialist) and the DM doest not capitalize on our weaknesses. Had the DM made the avatar start up on a 50 foot ceiling and rain spells down, the encounter would have been much more difficult. If the avatar had been placed with her underlings between her and ourselves she wouldnt have died in the first round. If she would have been invisible she may have given the berserker a run for his money. So what tactics does your group use to take down the badguys? Are they melee oriented? Do they weaken their foes with ranged attacks? Do spellcasters use area control spells to hamper the villians? Do they rely on similar tactics for every encounter or do they come up with different strategies each time?
Orion_Danthyer 01-17-07, 12:09 AM	I've found, with many of my players, that combat gneerally takes about 2-4 rounds, which isn't too bad, but that's the equivalent of a 10-25 second fight. I'd rather have fights last a little bit longer, especially big "boss" battles, like the heroes against a villain NPC. Unfortunately, most NPCs have horrible hit points, since their Challenge Rating is equal to their level, and if I go too far beyond that, they'll do too much damage. Maybe your thinking too hard about this, dont forget D&D ISN'T based on reality. D&D is like a reality tv show, its a reality show that is scripted therefore ruining it, but onto the subject. That has happened before, with the big boss battles. If you have the libris Mortis, look up the catacomb dungeon with the scionl. In a hidden treasure, there is a document about how the scion is so powerful and crap, the battle lasted 2 rounds because the scion is a little wuss that has no chance against underlvled characters. So i guess i agree and disagree with you at the same time.
Grimmsfeld 01-17-07, 02:21 AM	Some tactics I use when building BBEGs, as I DM for a group of power gamers, which is fine with me: 1. Don't be afraid to use material you think might kill a PC. 2. Do not, under any circumstances, use a pre-gen NPC, either out of the DMG or a splat book, unless it's a monster, which you know, that doesn't really count as "pre-gen." 3. Equip the BBEG as a PC of his ECL. A rod of absorbtion gives magic heavy parties fits, while a decent suit of full plate and a decent shield go a long way towards slowing down melee bruisers. Add in items/buffs that give additional AC boosts as appropriate. BBEGs capable of UMD come stocked with a full supply of wands/scrolls. Ways to play BBEGs: 1. Tactics, tactics, tactics, and unorthodox tactics at that. As posted above, don't make the enemy caster stand in once place and spam an AoE damage spell (sorry for the MMORPG terminology,) have him fly, turn ethereal/incorporeal, turn invisible, activate Globe of Invulnerabilty or spell turning. Over Thanksgiving, I isolated a PC on the Plane of Shadow by forcing them into a Shadow Walk, tehn had the NPC sorcerer pummel them with maximized Shadow Conjuration/Evocations. For melee BBEGs, with the proper skill ranks and some reasonable DM fudging, you can do some pretty nasty things with the special attacks that come straight from the PHB. In a session I ran over this past summer for an Eberron campaign, I had the PCs fight on a lightning rail against a swashbuckler-type NPC. They chased her down to a connector for two of the rail cars, which I had decided had 3ft guard rails. The gnome PC didn't expect for the swashbuckler to jump on to the rail next to the side of her (DC 12,) Balance long enough to get a solid footing (DC 20,) then proceed to initiate a bullrush, sending the gnome under the guard rail, and consequently, under the lightning rail. 2. More tactics, but this time, pre-empitive. Is it not unreasonable for the BBEG to have a network for information, such that he could pay for a few divination/scrying spells to be cast on his behalf, or at least some gather information checks thrown around concerning the PCs? To be prepared is half the victory. 3. If you have a spell/power/feat/SLA/class ability, use it. All too many times, I've had what I planned to be recurring villains blown away because I was too busy making them do cool stuff instead of efficient stuff. This will kind of segue into my next point... 4. Don't be afraid to kill the PCs once you're in combat. Cast save or die spells. Hit them with retarded combos (to reference the Thanksgiving session again, the PC's didn't fair too well against an Adamantine Hurrice combined with Sweeping Strike.) Sometimes, striking back at the PCs with lethal force makes them not want to engage the BBEG actively, knowing that he only has to land three good hits to take someone out compared to the combined total of their 8. Winning initiative is key, here. If an NPC melee person takes their first action to close with the party, and strike a PC for more than half that person's hit point total, it sends a really strong message (whether truthful or imagined) that ganging up on the guy in melee might not be the best decision. Reducing the number of hits your BBEG takes per round goes a long way towards lengthening the fight (obviously,) whether the BBEG has to eliminate threats entirely (PC death) or simply scare them off is up to you. 5. As posted above, don't go solo. Summon allies, send in mobs of faceless soldiers, and as frustrating as it may be for the PCs, charm/dominate them. Having a whole squad of alternate targets for the PCs to hit again lowers the number of hits the BBEG takes. I hate the trend in most D&D games that combat encounters only last upwards of 5 rounds. I don't like the assertion that "in reality" fights only take two minutes, and therefor that's how D&D fights should be. I prefer the "cinematic combat;" it is a fantasy game after all. Memorable fights in modern pop-culture media seldom last less than 30 seconds. No Jedi I've seen has ever gone down that quick (save for maybe Count Dooku,) the second Matrix movie had long running combat scenes, which actually spanned several different locations. Even the boxing matches in the Rocky movies were never over in 30 seconds. Now, you can say how horrible each of those movies are, and I'd agree with you, but you can't say a 30 second fight that eventually ends up with one guy stabbing the other in the neck is entertaining. Unless it's with katanas...then all bets are off. Now I'm rambling...
a_psh 01-17-07, 04:53 AM	I've found, with many of my players, that combat gneerally takes about 2-4 rounds, which isn't too bad, but that's the equivalent of a 10-25 second fight.Real fights can be really quick, too. When they aren't, it's because combatants are doing more than just swinging swords at each other. Like circling. Which is what D&D simulates very poorly (not at all, really), because it's basically never a good idea not to move and attempt an attack in D&D.
diegosephroth 01-17-07, 07:30 AM	Yeah, D&D combat does tend to be very quick in terms of game time. At the table, though, a round can last an hour. So while I feel battles should be longer, I'm not sure I could stand it. man talk about taking long. I had my 25th players fighting an advanced balor. The battle endured like 6 hours gameplay but as near as 10 rounds of battle. Particularly high level spellcasters tend to make rounds last forever. I am really an adept the fights might be more cinematic, most at epic levels. At regular battles i just keep the regular, and thats fine. For bosses, I multiply time by minutes. But thats just about roleplay since it won't change anything. If you mean to really EXTEND the regular battle time(in actual rounds playing) put some more flavor into it. I mean, high cliffs, lakes, minions, poison, fumes, morphic enviroment, illusion, HEAVY disable spells/effects. I also work with a house rule that stays that after a character has fought for 10 consecutive rounds, it must make constitution checks fot not become fatigated. Two failures and thats a exhaustion effect. That proves to be quiet role-playing, and severely diminishes the party fire-power, making it last longer. But if you have technical problems(via low bosses hp and such), and I particularly always have those, I have 3 nice estrategies: 1- At major of times, they'll just be better prepared. Greater stoneskin, BLINK, displacement, and at higher levels, spell turning, quickened teleport. If you can't protect yourself with spells, just make high concealment terrains or such. 2- Make your characters spend part of their actions doing something else. Ex: a battle in a low river, will force your characters to spend a move action making balance checks, and limiting them to one attack per round. Abuse this trick... it works well with climb, tumble, balance, jump, concentration... and beyond that, it will make battle far more cinematic and dangerous(i always consider bonus xp to that). 3- At extreme cases, boop up you npc's/monsters Hp/reductions. Have you seen the monster manual guide for advancing monsters? there are some types that can get like 4hd per cr advanced. And believe me- thats a LOT of hp. If you don't wanna raise their cr, ballance things, take a feat away here and there, lesser the dc of one or two abilities and that should prove to be fine.
TheCobra 01-17-07, 10:25 AM	Real fights can be really quick, too. When they aren't, it's because combatants are doing more than just swinging swords at each other. Like circling. Well, combatants usually do move in and out of distance, yes. Swordfights can be very quick, but they can also take a good while. It depends on the system in question. George Silver thought two masters should be able to fight each other to a standstill. And Donald McBane wrote about fighting defensively until the other guy grew tired. If you mean to really EXTEND the regular battle time(in actual rounds playing) put some more flavor into it. I mean, high cliffs, lakes, minions, poison, fumes, morphic enviroment, illusion, HEAVY disable spells/effects. Yeah, that's good advice.
Zumarai 01-17-07, 10:48 AM	Things to make combat last longer: -Terrain -Multiple foes -Stunning -Distance -Reinforcements -Healing spells/potions -Disarming -Counter-spelling -Sundering -Withdrawing …I'll get back with some more.
primemover003 01-17-07, 12:40 PM	In practice most combats at any level tend to last 2-5 rounds on average, those that don't seem to go near 10 rounds and they're the super tough ones. If your PC's don't get the jump on an enemy quickly the combat will last a while. Single Bad guys vs. 4 or more party members is suicide. Even with huge AC and hp's the BBEG is lacking the most important currency in the game. Actions. Keep away from the PC's, stay mobile especially against fighters.
Whisper_Swiftblade 01-17-07, 03:25 PM	Try useing difficult terrain, casting web/greese, throwing the NPCs and PCs some nice armor,throw in some traps and things, maybe some confusion with look alikes, and mobs opon mobs of nearly powerless foes. think of how your guys are fighting too, ask yourself what will delay the players more, a chop with an axe, of a trip?
Xel 01-17-07, 05:37 PM	Equip the BBEG as a PC of his ECL. A rod of absorption gives magic heavy parties fits, while a decent suit of full plate and a decent shield go a long way towards slowing down melee bruisers. Add in items/buffs that give additional AC boosts as appropriate. BBEGs capable of UMD come stocked with a full supply of wands/scrolls. A problem with this tactic is that if the PC's happen to get lucky and get an early decisive blow (or in other circumstances that I'm sure I could figure out), killing this guy now gives the PC a horde of new equipment, thus making them way over-equipped for PC's of their level, which in turn makes future encounters that much easier. For melee BBEGs, with the proper skill ranks and some reasonable DM fudging, you can do some pretty nasty things with the special attacks that come straight from the PHB. In a session I ran over this past summer .... This is more of a personal preference, but I never think that a DM should fudge against the PC's, only for them. More tactics, but this time, pre-emptive. Is it not unreasonable for the BBEG to have a network for information, such that he could pay for a few divination/scrying spells to be cast on his behalf, or at least some gather information checks thrown around concerning the PCs? To be prepared is half the victory. While this is ok and expected to a degree from the BBEG, using this too much can really take away from the reward that a player feels when HIS plan works. If the NPC's know pretty much everything that is going on with the PC group at any given time, any planning that the PC's do is more or less useless, which turns the entire situation into "Ok, who won the initiative?" and "Ok, who failed the save?" Don't be afraid to kill the PCs once you're in combat. Cast save or die spells. Hit them with retarded combos. This is a double-edged sword, so to speak. Sometimes, a DM wants to have an immersive story to their game. If the PC's keep dying and new ones keep needing to be rolled up, a new "story" needs to begin, as it were. Even if the new people do join the current campaign, they don't have the history or experiences to have them truly invested in it. Thus, character continuity can become a problem when PC's get killed off every few levels. I think that keeping this in mind, PC's should really only die due to stupidity on their own part or if they get unlucky. I know that this can take away a bit from the danger of combat, but I think that rerolls due to losing an enjoyable character take even more away from the game (unless, like I said, they do something stupid or get unlucky). Some people say "There's always resurrection", but to some (myself included), resurrection spells tend to take away a lot of the danger of severity of death in the game. Even if PC’s generally don’t die unless they are unlucky or do something stupid, knowing that they can just get a resurrection if something happens will cause them to be even more reckless and stupid. The wizard 8 levels higher than you just killed the party because they knew that they could just get resurrected if they stood up to him? No big deal!
Xel 01-17-07, 05:39 PM	In practice most combats at any level tend to last 2-5 rounds on average, those that don't seem to go near 10 rounds and they're the super tough ones. If your PC's don't get the jump on an enemy quickly the combat will last a while. Single Bad guys vs. 4 or more party members is suicide. Even with huge AC and hp's the BBEG is lacking the most important currency in the game. Actions. Keep away from the PC's, stay mobile especially against fighters. I agree with pretty much everything you posted here - combat in the game was designed to be something like 3-6 rounds (give or take) for tougher combats, and a bit more than that for super-long or super-tough ones. A single enemy is fairly easy to take down assuming the party has some decent damage-dealing capability. The best way to mitigate that, as you posted, is to have multiple pretty threatening enemies instead of one extremely threatening one.