Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Debonair Swordsman 04-20-06, 01:49 PM	Ok I know when 3r edition came out it was asked if expertise overode fighting defensively and the sages or whatever said yes. Now does that still aplly in 3.5?? Like if you're a dervish with elaborate parry and you have cobat expertise, could you take a -1 and get the +5 bonus (1 for expertise 4 for elaborate parry)? Or would you actually have to use the standard fighting defensively rules?
fatal error 04-20-06, 02:22 PM	Actually I have specifically been told on this forum that you can both use Combat Expertise and Fight Defensively at the same time.
Dessirris 04-20-06, 02:31 PM	3.5 is specific, in the PHB I think. Fighting defensively and combat expertise are seperate actions, and they stack. Neither counts as the other, so you'd still have to take the standard fighting defensively penalty to get the elaborate parry benefit, but it would stack with any combat expertise you used.
DeadEye19 04-20-06, 04:54 PM	True. It's right there, PHB Pg. 140, just before "Cast a Spell", under " Fighting defensively as a standard action".
Matthew_ 04-20-06, 06:36 PM	You can't, however, combine either with Total Defense, which is strange as it means there comes a point where a character with Combat Expertise would be at a disadvantage if he chose Total Defense over Defensive Fighting [i.e. a Level Three Fighter with Combat Expertise has the choice of +4 AC and no attack or +5 AC and -7 to Attack].
Bulletproof_Condom 04-20-06, 06:42 PM	Total defense is a separate action, yeah. This means that if you have Combat Expertise, you're actually harder to hit when you're in melee making those -9 attacks than when you're using total defense. Thing is Combat Expertise and fighting defensively both require you to make at least one attack on somebody. You can use total defense when you have nobody to attack.
DM_Greatness 04-20-06, 06:45 PM	STOP! Come on people. Start using the common sense here for just a little bit. Please? You can't stack Fighting Defensively with Expertise to get a better armor class adjustment than if you were doing the Total Defense option, while still being able to make attack rolls! Holy munkinism. Stop.....and....Think!
Bulletproof_Condom 04-20-06, 06:57 PM	Holy Condescension, Batman! I trust you have a source to back that up?
Dessirris 04-20-06, 07:00 PM	STOP! Come on people. Start using the common sense here for just a little bit. Please? You can't stack Fighting Defensively with Expertise to get a better armor class adjustment than if you were doing the Total Defense option, while still being able to make attack rolls! Holy munkinism. Stop.....and....Think! ...... If you would take the time to actually READ THE BOOK, you would save so much face..... You can get a better bonus that total defense just by using combat expertise for +5. +5 AC and an attack at -5 for a standard action is better than +4 AC and no attack at all for the same standard action. Total Defense You can defend yourself as a standard action. You get a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You canÂ’t combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat (since both of those require you to declare an attack or full attack). You canÂ’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense. Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round. COMBAT EXPERTISE [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Int 13. Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action. Normal: A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class. Special: A fighter may select Combat Expertise as one of his fighter bonus feats. Okay: Full Defense: Standard action, no attacks can be made, +4 dodge bonus to AC. Fighting defensively: Can be used when you use an attack or full attack action, -4 to hit, +2 dodge bonus to AC. Combat Expertise: Can be used when you use an attack or full attack action, -X to hit, +X dodge bonus to AC, X must be less than or equal to your BAB, and no more than 5. The last to are A) not mutually exclusive, and B) specifically stated to stack in the Players Handbook, Core Rulebook 1.
Moribund 04-20-06, 07:03 PM	Hmm, can only use Combat Expertise while making an attack "in melee". I'm considered "in melee" when either threatened by an enemy or threatening an enemy. This leads me to two conclusions: I can use Combat Expertise while making ranged attacks in melee and I should really start thinking of "ground" as a mortal enemy.
Arandar 04-20-06, 08:24 PM	Actually, although I shun the way DM_Greatness does his post (as all his posts are condenscending and in general rather useless) he does have a point in this case. Normal: A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class. As stated, you cannot use combat expertise when doing a total defense. However, as stated by this Normal, it says (in quite plain English, but to emphasize I'll rewrite it a little to make my point) that if you have combat expertise you can use that, and if you don't have combat expertise you can use the Fighting Defensively. Either Combat Expertise or Fighting Defensively should state that they could be combined if they were able to be.
Matthew_ 04-20-06, 08:52 PM	I agree that this Feat description does seem to suggest an 'either / or' situation, but there's nothing in the Combat Rules or FAQ that prohibits their combination, unlike with Total Defence. Both require you to Attack as a Standard or Full Round Action, but only Combat Expertise requires you to be in melee [i.e. you can shoot arrows defensively]. Until an official 3.5 errata is issued it's up to the DM... Edit: In fact, here's some advice from Wizards that suggests you can combine Fighting Defensively with Combat Expertise: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20050328a
Dessirris 04-20-06, 09:21 PM	^-^ yay for hardcopy resources: "This bonus stacks with the AC bonus granted by the Combat Expertise feat." It stacks, as it was printed in the rulebook. If you would put down your little SRDs, where that statement was not transcribed to, and look it up in the actual, physical book, it's printed in pretty black ink. @_@ shiny.... ink.....
Lord of Dorkness 04-21-06, 02:46 AM	For added complicatedness add this: Special: If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively instead of the usual +2 dodge bonus to AC. If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you gain a +6 dodge bonus to AC when executing the total defense standard action instead of the usual +4 dodge bonus to AC. Tumble+Combat Expertise+Defensive Fighting has saved our Swashy many a times.
Arandar 04-21-06, 02:49 AM	I bow down to those who are not as lazy as I and see this as my learning to use the PHB more often when I say something.
WhiteHarness 04-21-06, 07:16 AM	Am I reading this wrong, or is there no reason that someone in heavy armour can't do the '5 ranks of tumble + combat expertise + fight defensively?' It doesn't require a Tumble check, so armour penalties don't count, right?
Bulletproof_Condom 04-21-06, 08:27 AM	Yeah. You wouldn't lose a synergy bonus from Concentration while raging, so there's no reason you shouldn't lose a synergy bonus from Tumble while wearing heavy armor. But I guess a DM could logically change that if he felt like nerfing the blarg crowd.
Moribund 04-21-06, 05:19 PM	Since Fighting Defensively stacks with Combat Expertise, do you guys think it makes sense that Total Defense does not? Is there a compelling reason, rules notwithstanding, not have it add you base attack bonus (up to +5) to you AC as a dodge bonus when taking the Total Defense action? I've allowed it as a house rule in my campaign and besides having the Combat Expertise-ing rogue/fighter being annoyingly hard to hit at times; I don't really see a downside. (the above rogue/fighter has the most incredibly variable AC between charging/Combat Expertise/Reckless Offensive/Mobility. His AC goes from like 8 to 26)
Matthew_ 04-21-06, 07:13 PM	Personally, I have no problem with this as a House Rule, but it requires something of a rewrite for Combat Expertise, as it requires you to attack in melee in order to be of use... However, I don't think that Total Defence and Fighting Defensively should ever stack.
Lord of Dorkness 04-22-06, 01:35 PM	Fighting Defensively and Total Defense are two totally different actions. The former lets you make your usual attacks at a penalty for some AC, while with the latter you completely forego any attacks for even more AC. It's like the same thing on two levels of commitment. I find it very logical for them /not/ to stack. That's just the fluff reason, the crunch reason should be very clear by now.
Dessirris 04-22-06, 02:08 PM	Since Fighting Defensively stacks with Combat Expertise, do you guys think it makes sense that Total Defense does not? Is there a compelling reason, rules notwithstanding, not have it add you base attack bonus (up to +5) to you AC as a dodge bonus when taking the Total Defense action? I've allowed it as a house rule in my campaign and besides having the Combat Expertise-ing rogue/fighter being annoyingly hard to hit at times; I don't really see a downside. (the above rogue/fighter has the most incredibly variable AC between charging/Combat Expertise/Reckless Offensive/Mobility. His AC goes from like 8 to 26) There's a very compelling reason for not having it stack. If you're not making any attacks, the penalty to your attack bonus is completely meaningless, and you're gaining +5 AC that stacks with everything for giving up nothing. And you can't be making attacks which are meant to allow you to protect yourself better if you aren't making any attacks at all.
Moribund 04-22-06, 02:13 PM	I wasn't suggesting that Fighting Defensively and Total Defense should stack. The query was about Combat Expertise and Total Defense, I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. It seems silly to me that a player with Combat Expertise can get a higher bonus to AC by combining Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively and still get an attack, than he can by forgoing his attacks while taking the Total Defense action. I suppose I can understand that he can use an opponent's motion to make himself harder to hit, hence requiring him to be "in melee" but I think that is a bit of stretch.
Dessirris 04-22-06, 02:28 PM	I wasn't suggesting that Fighting Defensively and Total Defense should stack. The query was about Combat Expertise and Total Defense, I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. It seems silly to me that a player with Combat Expertise can get a higher bonus to AC by combining Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively and still get an attack, than he can by forgoing his attacks while taking the Total Defense action. I suppose I can understand that he can use an opponent's motion to make himself harder to hit, hence requiring him to be "in melee" but I think that is a bit of stretch. Exactly, full defense is a limited, untrained technique of simply trying to avoid being hit at all costs, combat experitise uses the movements of your attacks to help you defend yourself better as well. If you don't make any attacks, and just focus on defending yourself, you don't have the oppourtunities to use those combat expertise techniques to defend yourself better. Yes, combat expertise does let you get a better bonus to AC with fighting defensively than just total defense, but that's part of the bonus of the feat.
Matthew_ 04-22-06, 04:10 PM	Isn't that just one interpretation of what's going on or does it say that explicitly in the 3.5 Books? Fighting Defensively and Total Defense seem like very similar actions to me and both are possible for untrained combatants...
d_nychus 04-22-06, 07:10 PM	That's a fact by the letter of the actual rules. To use Combat Expertise, you need to attack, be it as a standard action attack, or a full attack. When you use Total Defense, you spend your standard action to defend yourself, so you cannot attack as either a standard action attack, or a full attack. Ergo, you cannot combine Combat Expertise with Total Defense.
Matthew_ 04-22-06, 07:45 PM	I understand the rules; in fact I pointed that very thing out above. I was questioning the rationale behind it, as provided by Dessirris. Moribund wants to create a House Rule whereby Combat Expertise and Total Defence could be used in combination. As I stated, I have no problem with this and I doubt it would unbalance the game, but he would have to solve the rules problem [i.e. that to use Combat Expertise you need to be attacking in melee]. One potential solution would be to allow it in conjunction with the Total Defence Action when engaged in melee (however you wish to define the latter). A modified Combat Expertise Feat would then read: COMBAT EXPERTISE [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Int 13. Benefit: When you use the attack action, the full attack action or the total defence action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action. A character using the total defence action may still not attack. Normal: A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class. Special: A fighter may select Combat Expertise as one of his fighter bonus feats.
d_nychus 04-22-06, 07:54 PM	I just see no reason as to why to allow it to stack. I mean, I see Combat Expertise as a much more active form of Fighting Defensively. I see it as requiring hacking and slashing back at your opponent in one way or another. I don't see a balance reason for it to not stack, though, so I don't much mind a houserule that allows for it. I just also do not see a pressing need for it.
Bulletproof_Condom 04-22-06, 08:57 PM	Look at it this way; to fight defensively or use Combat Expertise, you need to make at least one attack. Total defense does not have this requirement. And since most DMs don't let you just attack the ground, thin air, or "the darkness" to get your dodge bonuses, total defense can be used in a wider set of circumstances. So you might total defense while closing in on an enemy formation with archers, then switch to Combat Expertise when you get into melee. I happen to love using total defense as a "nothing better to do" action. The enemy is closing, they haven't spotted us yet, I'm already buffed... total defense. And if you're wondering why you can get a bigger AC bonus while in melee than while 30 ft. away, it's because in melee you have a lot more options for interfereing with your enemy's attacks. You can block, you can redirect, you can knock him off balance, you can get him to abandon his attack by threatening him with yours, etc..