Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Johnathan_Vagabond 12-06-07, 06:21 PM	I've long wanted to make players that fight long fights get tired (or rely on this tactic of 'wearing them down'). But I haven't seen anything of the sort. Are there any rules system that 'getting tired' a part of extended battle?
Rulebook 12-06-07, 06:46 PM	back in one of the 2e supplimentals there were some rules... forget the books though. i think it was something like your con in rounds and get whatever fatigue was then. or maybe it was half your con, plus a progression based on class. something like that. i think half you con score plus your BaB in rounds forces a fort save (im not even gonna guess on that) plus 1 for each passed fort save or take fatigue until you rest for a round or two. maybe a full round to catch your breath or something. if you're hell bent on a system that sounds pretty nice and tidy
Tony Vargas 12-06-07, 07:04 PM	D&D combats are rarely that long, on the one hand. OTOH, medieval battles could last for hours. So, if you go for a system that impacts typical D&D combats, characters would be exhausted in less than a minute. Which'd make it hard to imagine how anyone ever gets a war faught in your world. IRL, endurance was a very important aspect of melee combat. A duel could be won by the antagonist with the most staying power, if skill & strength were otherwise closely matched, or if the style of combat just favored defense over offense in some way. Modeling that might be problematic, though, for the above reason, and because it places a limitation upon more mundane characters (those most likely to be swinging sword), who already struggle for relevence in a relatively high-magic setting.
ChainLink 12-07-07, 12:04 AM	A typical boxing round is 3 minutes. Most boxers can go at least 5 without suffering anything like D&D fatigue. Even considering that they get breaks between rounds, that's still 150 D&D rounds before even considering fatigue. Combat doesn't last that long.
Salla 12-07-07, 01:15 AM	back in one of the 2e supplimentals there were some rules... forget the books though. One of the Player's Option books, but in 2e rounds were a minute, so five rounds of combat would be tiring. I wouldn't recommend doing this, at any rate, simply because it would hose the fighters again while the spellcasters get off scot free.
Nom 12-07-07, 06:53 AM	Plus, fatigue can easily fit within the abstraction that is hit point loss. If you have a D&D "battle" that goes 150 rounds of fighting without some form of hit point loss, you've got bigger problems than fatigue rules.
Johnathan_Vagabond 12-07-07, 12:18 PM	I certainly would never hose the brutes. I'd actually planned to make spell casters pay in varying levels of fatigue for casting spells. Cantrips could be set off without a thought, but loosing that fireball would be tiring. I was thinking about mental or physical fatigue for a certain number of rounds, probably based on spell level, with a chance for various conditions the farther up you go, Sickened, Nauseous, Fatigue, Exhausted, etc, etc. Also, I thought about hp representing an abstract of combat fatigue, but I think that it can't, because a fighter can fight just as well at 1hp as he can at 150. So I think a different system is needed. I personally was thinking along the lines of scaling fatigue based on %hp lost in a fight, with running penalties at 75, 50, and 25% hp. The Endurance feat would have a negating effect, with perhaps a chain of feats stemming from Endurance to tire less quickly and tire opponents more quickly. Requiring a Con 13+ and so on. Oh, and I didn't mean the Condition fatigued. I mean penalties to perhaps skills, attacks, and a few other rolls.
1 ton ghost 12-07-07, 01:24 PM	A typical boxing round is 3 minutes. Most boxers can go at least 5 without suffering anything like D&D fatigue. Even considering that they get breaks between rounds, that's still 150 D&D rounds before even considering fatigue. Combat doesn't last that long. good observation, but apples and oranges nonetheless. they're trying to conserve energy when they can, not attacking every "combat round" (an abstraction anyway), and not running around in poor environs in armor w/ gear. it's heated/cooled arena free of debris and other combatants running around the ring. plus, gloves, coaching, etc. the other boxer isn't trying to kill you typically, which seems to be pretty good motivation to take your time/stretegize vs. an advesary that's going for blood and demands immediate or decisive action w/ no dallying in between. it's wise to draw out a pugilist in fisticuffs, but i wouldn't give the same consideration to any undead, a rogue, etc. those UFC guys, they're winded after just 2 rounds, but the intensity is far greater. probably a closer approximation to dungeon combat than boxing i guess. the fatigue system is a good idea, at least, the notion is realistic, but of course, it's one more bell and whistle to which WotC would deliberate for all of 5 seconds and say, "nah, too complex already." ...or make a new edition.
Tony Vargas 12-07-07, 02:21 PM	I certainly would never hose the brutes. I'd actually planned to make spell casters pay in varying levels of fatigue for casting spells. Cantrips could be set off without a thought, but loosing that fireball would be tiring. In theory, you could use a limitation like that /instead/ of the current spells/day limitations. If a caster were exhausted by casting his top level spell, for instance, he'd be reluctant to toss one early in any encounter. I was thinking about mental or physical fatigue for a certain number of rounds, probably based on spell level, with a chance for various conditions the farther up you go, Sickened, Nauseous, Fatigue, Exhausted, etc, etc.You could use a full round of combat as a basic unit for calculating fatigue, with a spell costing it's level in such units. That'd make cantrips non-fatiguing, and high-level spells very fatiguing. If resisting fatigue is based on CON, it'd make that stat even more critical for low-hp arcane casters. If it's based on FORT, it'd make Clerics and Druids actual gain in relative power compared to other (poor FORT) casters. If it's resisted by WILL ('mental fatigue'), OTOH, virtually all casters will be good at resisting fatigue, but, again, Divine casters, who tend to pump WIS, will be even better. Also, I thought about hp representing an abstract of combat fatigue, but I think that it can't, because a fighter can fight just as well at 1hp as he can at 150. So I think a different system is needed.Agreed. I personally was thinking along the lines of scaling fatigue based on %hp lost in a fight, with running penalties at 75, 50, and 25% hp.That would probably be frustrating as fights would either be very easy - you damage on the foe quickly, his 'fatigue' penalties weigh him down and you win without any trouble - or very hard - you get in a tough fight and get knocked down to low hps, now, when you need your abilities most desperately, you're facing a raft of penalties. The Endurance feat would have a negating effect, with perhaps a chain of feats stemming from Endurance to tire less quickly and tire opponents more quickly. Requiring a Con 13+ and so on.Could be interesting. Though, really, if fatigue was a significant factor, it'd just be another set of 'must have' feats to eat into the limitted number a character can choose. (OTOH, if there are any fatigue-negating spells, picking them up would only be problematic for spontaneous casters).
ChainLink 12-08-07, 12:11 AM	the other boxer isn't trying to kill you typically, which seems to be pretty good motivation to take your time/stretegize vs. an advesary that's going for blood and demands immediate or decisive action w/ no dallying in between. Heh, have you ever watched a boxing match? Ever been in one? Taking your time and strategizing might be good for later rounds, but early-mid rounds, you'd believe your opponent is trying to kill you. That's why they wear gloves: So they can hit as hard as they want with reduced threat of killing anyone.
Johnathan_Vagabond 12-08-07, 02:29 AM	I don't think the penalties need to be excessive. Perhaps they could max out at -3. Enough to be an nuisance, and swing the advantage in a fight, but only if the opponent is already talented. They wouldn't need to be must have feats (the Endurance ones), rather any one that wasn't looking towards endurance would simply need to burn down opponents faster, which would be easier for them with their different feat set up. I already like the idea of fatigue as caster control, but I wouldn't dare replace Vancian casting without a lot more fleshing out and deliberation. Not because Vancian casting is so wonderful, but because having a really balanced spell system takes more than a passing thought. I'm not sure what to base the save off of. I'd like to make it a constitution check. Perhaps with a bonus to save for ranks in Spellcraft (which I think is a good idea). I think bards and sorcerers would be more resistant to spell fatigue (that could be the noted term, "spell fatigue") because they have more spells per day to make them tired. I think a +2 to saves vs. Spell Fatigue would fit nicely.
kuonji 12-08-07, 07:13 AM	I would recommend against it for the simple reason that it adds more data to track to an already number heavy combat system. Players will need to keep track when they pass a fatigue limit and start taking penalties, then track those penalties. You as the DM will need to calculate the 75/50/25 or whatever markers for your enemies and then track the penalties for them on top of everything else. I assume you would apply the same system to enemies as players since it wouldn't be very fair for PCs to tire in long combats but enemies never get tired; undead, constructs and other exceptions aside.
Nom 12-08-07, 08:53 AM	Also, I thought about hp representing an abstract of combat fatigue, but I think that it can't, because a fighter can fight just as well at 1hp as he can at 150. So I think a different system is needed.You've got the same problem if hp represent injury, morale, or anything other than a pool of pure luck. Adding fatigue mechanics while ignoring hp mechanics is way into "elephant in the room" territory.
1 ton ghost 12-08-07, 01:15 PM	Heh, have you ever watched a boxing match? Ever been in one? Taking your time and strategizing might be good for later rounds, but early-mid rounds, you'd believe your opponent is trying to kill you. That's why they wear gloves: So they can hit as hard as they want with reduced threat of killing anyone. heh...yes actually, i have. you? and i used to box as well, amateur anyway. i'm no bronx bomber, but i've bested men (and been bested too...) w/ at least 30+ lbs on me and better reach (i'm only 155 & 6ft). you'll never guess how i did it either ;) ...(scroll back). i'm not a brute or much of a boxer really, but i know not to go all out first thing for typical fights. this is not to say that i haven't had the dogs-it beteen out of me as a kid or a Halloween party in '99 (free advice; don't ever go as the Invisible Man and try to break up a drunken brawl, the shades & gauze on your face will damn near blind you at night when triple-teamed on:doh: ) burning everything i had in the 1st few "rounds" was tantamount to forfeiting prematurely. ie) stupid and dangerous. a good boxing match is drawn out. besides ppl, feel cheated on a short tourney ala old Tyson fights. want $'s worth. if my life was in danger, different story. no fair fights, no quater, no nothing. related: though my preferences in school ran more towards fencing and kendo than boxing, they, as well, were exhausting in the traditional sense. even those aren't true to life or death combat, but damn...it got very tiring very quickly. particularly under the cage mask, it facilitates heat build-up, perspiration, etc., and subsequent fatigue in no short order, but you get to keep your eyes.
Johnathan_Vagabond 12-08-07, 07:34 PM	There are already morale abilities. Bard song, different inspirations, intimidate and others which don't affect hp. By including hp as the mechanic by which to judge the fatigue effects, I think I'm safely circumventing the elephant, and perhaps reducing him to a hippopotamus or a rhinoceros.
Tema69 12-09-07, 06:53 PM	I'd really like to see combat fatigue rules for DnD... After reading all them Dragonlance books where the characters get tired after a few minutes, I've always wanted to include combat fatigue in my game. Anyway, I think heavy and medium armor/load should give penalties to the Fort save... I've played a lot of LARP, and been running around in 50 lb. chainmails (I'm just a wee kid) and the amount of energy you can spend fighting is greatly reduced compared to fighting unarmored. Additionally, I think it should ressemble and stack with running. Running for a while to reach your enemy is tiring, and having to fight him afterwards really sucks. ;) Of course, figting an enemy and running afterwards would have the same consequences. And I'd love to see the Knight having to stop to catch his breath between killing people.
Sinfire Titan 12-09-07, 10:05 PM	I certainly would never hose the brutes. I'd actually planned to make spell casters pay in varying levels of fatigue for casting spells. Cantrips could be set off without a thought, but loosing that fireball would be tiring. I was thinking about mental or physical fatigue for a certain number of rounds, probably based on spell level, with a chance for various conditions the farther up you go, Sickened, Nauseous, Fatigue, Exhausted, etc, etc. Also, I thought about hp representing an abstract of combat fatigue, but I think that it can't, because a fighter can fight just as well at 1hp as he can at 150. So I think a different system is needed. I personally was thinking along the lines of scaling fatigue based on %hp lost in a fight, with running penalties at 75, 50, and 25% hp. The Endurance feat would have a negating effect, with perhaps a chain of feats stemming from Endurance to tire less quickly and tire opponents more quickly. Requiring a Con 13+ and so on. Oh, and I didn't mean the Condition fatigued. I mean penalties to perhaps skills, attacks, and a few other rolls. But the system wouldn't make sense for Warforged, as they have ridiculous physical endurance, and they are naturally immune to fatigue or exhaustion. The system would have no impact on undead, constructs, or living constructs. Or Oozes, or elementals. It also gives anyone who knows Iron Heart Surge a considerable boost to their staying power, above and beyond what it currently is. IMO, I think it would be a bad idea to try this. A person fighting even semi-intelligently won't be swing a weapon with all of their might, they will be watching their opponent and blocking incoming attacks and dodging other ones. They won't tire as easily, as they will keep a certain distance from their enemy. I'd say, if combat last more than 10 minutes in game, which would be unbelievable, then the players need to make saves or feel worn down.
1 ton ghost 12-09-07, 11:25 PM	But the system wouldn't make sense for Warforged, as they have ridiculous physical endurance, and they are naturally immune to fatigue or exhaustion. The system would have no impact on undead, constructs, or living constructs. Or Oozes, or elementals. It also gives anyone who knows Iron Heart Surge a considerable boost to their staying power, above and beyond what it currently is. IMO, I think it would be a bad idea to try this. A person fighting even semi-intelligently won't be swing a weapon with all of their might, they will be watching their opponent and blocking incoming attacks and dodging other ones. They won't tire as easily, as they will keep a certain distance from their enemy. I'd say, if combat last more than 10 minutes in game, which would be unbelievable, then the players need to make saves or feel worn down. those are nice, conservative points of order. one of many reasons i like to play undead; sleep/food/fatigue/etc. discrepancies. so oft over-looked, but so choice. avg PC day, 24 hrs (and 8 discretionary [your own]). having 1/3 more time forever (undeath) is nice. not being ambushed at camp asleep/prone/helpless is nice. chasing down an enemy in marathon cross country effortlessly is nice, and so is hauling a s-itload of Med or Heavy encumberance/treasure w/out getting winded. a compelling Con to this argument for sure. greater bias towards Necropolitan and Warforged types i guess as a result. still, 10 min then Fort is a nice simple system, nj. depending on intensity, other factors (prior stunning, nausea, shaken, etc) might eat up the clock faster. like 5 min or less perhaps.
Johnathan_Vagabond 12-09-07, 11:27 PM	Fortunately for me I don't need to worry about that. I don't use the Tome of Battle or Eberron. So I don't concern myself with warforged or Iron Heart Surge (which sounds like using a defibrillator.) A person fighting even semi-intelligently won't be swing a weapon with all of their might, they will be watching their opponent and blocking incoming attacks and dodging other ones. They won't tire as easily, as they will keep a certain distance from their enemy. Unless he knows that the person opposite of him is fighting semi-intelligently, and that if he goes all out in the first ten seconds that he will startle the semi-intelligent opponent and win in a heartbeat. 'Course, thats a gamble, because he may fend off the initial onslaught, and then you'll be tired. If there were a single way to fight that would always beat every other way, then every fighter would be identical.
sapient 12-10-07, 08:06 AM	I did some fighting in SCA back about ten, fifteen years ago. I found that trying to take your foe out immediately made sense - that was when you were at your physical peak so your chances were likely best at that time. And if you bested him right away, you'd conserve a lot of strength. If you didn't, well then it was time to lean back to catch your breath and start strategizing... Since most of the fights in DnD tend to be quick affairs, fatigue shouldn't play a big part. Now this fact - that almost all fights are over in a ludicrously short amount of time - is a kind of genre convention in it self. It is not very realistic, but it isn't intended to be, I guess. I have noticed that drawn out fights in DnD, tend to become a lot more unpredictable. Once you set up an encounter were you really want the players to feel that they just might be in over their head... strange things happen. Sometimes, after being a very balanced fight for quite sometime, the hp of the bad monster takes a sudden plunge due to factors that normally don't come into effect because the fight is long over. Or vice versa, because the party suddenly ran out of "staying power" when enchanments wear of and so on. If you want a system were fatigue play a part, I think you have to start changeing some of the basic mechanics to fit this concept. Throwing fatigue into a system geared for speed and quick fights won't make much sense. Fatigue IS worked into the hp system as it is now. It might not reflect fatigue very well since, as was noted before, a fighter still functions at peak performance level with 1 single hp left. But that just says that the hp-system isn't the most realistic of ways to reflect how a person tires. It is still there. Lower the chances of hitting. Either by rewriting BAB or inflating AC's. Change the hp-system so a few hits - even one good hit - might be fatal. But since it is a lot more difficult to achieve, the players have to utilize all the factors that they can - moving about the battle grid to flank, use cover, aid another and all the other things that a normal prolonged fight would entail. Attacks should be swift when executed, but the time spent inbetween should be longer. You should definitely consider abolishing the Full attack action. A standard fight consists of a charge (for extra bonus to hit) and then a series of full attacks until the foe drops from either the fighters efforts or the spellcasters. Taking away the full attack option slows down fights. But in order to keep the balance between spell casters and fighters, something would have to be done to stop the wizard from ruling the battlefield. Maybe casting higher level spells, should take longer time? That would tie in with applying the fatigue system to them as well. Unless you make these changes to the basic mechanics, I don't think a game with fatigue rules would stay balanced. .
Johnathan_Vagabond 12-10-07, 09:52 AM	Removing the full attack action is a pretty interesting idea. It would certainly make things more interesting. Lets see, dual weilding would be more valued, as well as the double shot abilities for ranged attacks. It would really make secondary actions valuable. It would decrease the value of some other feats, like Spring Attack, but would make Whirlwind Attack very powerful. That would be a fun thing to try, just for a session, to see how it worked out. I was thinking (In terms of the time thing) that I'd find it alot easier to make a single round 30 seconds, and increase the casting time, durations, and cool downs that are less than 30 minutes to be increased appropriately (x5 more or less). Possibly adjust move speed up appropriately, but not by much.
Wheldrake 12-10-07, 11:27 AM	D&D combat is so abstract that factoring in combat exhaustion would be far more trouble than it's worth. There are already game mechanics for states like "fatigued" and "exhausted", but I've never used them in a gaming session unless they were caused by a spell. Some other games like the venerable C&S (Chivalry and Sorcery) had both "body points" and "fatigue points" that worked similar to what the OP seems to want. "body points" represented real bloodletting and damage, while "fatigue points" were expended doing strenuous actions like combat and casting spells and the like. It was a fun game system, but rather complex, and it required a lot more book-keeping than D&D... which as saying a lot! While you could imagine a lot of various systems for keeping track of combat fatigue, it all just seems too complex to me. Just make characters rest from time to time, as circumstances dictate and whenever it feels appropriate, and make characters who refuse to rest pass Fort saves or become "fatigued" or "exhausted". YMMV, --- Wheldrake
RobbyPants 12-10-07, 01:26 PM	back in one of the 2e supplimentals there were some rules... forget the books though. Combat & Tactics, my all time favorite 2E book. It does have a point-based fatigue system in it, but it's a lot of bookwork. It's up to you if it's really worth it.
The_Levitator 12-10-07, 02:13 PM	My players wanted the same kind of experience in battle. Our game is much closer to Conan than conventional D&D, so they wanted something a little grittier. So I came up with something I call Battle Fatigue. It's meant to represent the cumulative effects of stress, adrenaline burn and physical strain and damage. I combined this with a Relative Health System for use in our VT. I've been using this system for 4 years now (pretty much since we started using 3.5) and my 2 groups really like it. The Relative health system is a color code that we use to mark tokens to show their relative condition in battle. Green = 76-100% of total HP = Healthy Yellow = 51-75% of total HP = Light Battle Fatigue (-1 STR, -1 DEX) Orange = 26-50% of total HP = Moderate Battle Fatigue (-2 STR, -2 DEX) Red = 1-25% of total HP = Heavy Battle Fatigue (-4 STR, -4 DEX) This really helps me as a DM to describe the action, and we combine it with a lot of DMG and UA variants to make combat more strategic and dicey. The best part is that I have all of it scripted into DM Genie, so each action only takes a couple of clicks and conditions are calculated and applied automatically. If anyone is interested in how this ties into all of our other variants, PM me here and I'll be happy to go into detail. I read on another forum that someone hinted that something like this may be in 4th edition. If it's true, that would rock! I wonder if someone read one of my earlier posts on the idea and found a way to work something like it into 4th?
Goof 12-10-07, 03:42 PM	I to have fought in all day battles in the SCA.(still do) And I love the resurect battles. Combat/Battle Fatigue does play a role, but it isn't noticalbe for a while. fighitng newb's all day is effortless compaird to 10 min with someone who is my equile.(teaching the newbs is a different matter . . ) So fighing a bunch of lower level monsters that you kill in 1-2 swings really wont tire that much.(less than 5% in anything less than an hr) If you really wanted some sort of fatique, and you had battles that lasted more than an hrs worth of rounds, then I'd take a -1 to a single attack, then 30 min -1 to another attack. Lowest first, till you no longer have that attack. But then Every once in a while -1 reflex, dmg, ac. Also my buddies fireing their xbows whle at the bigining they can fire and reload in a single round, towards the end of the day it takes them 3x as long. Also, coming from someone who uses shields in combat, dnd shields suck. It should double the AC or something based off dex.(small shield being more dex dependant) You can't hold a shield for only +1 point worth of armor. As for the mages, base it off what lvl spells they have casted vs what they have left.
The_Levitator 12-10-07, 04:37 PM	Simulated combat in a controlled environment is a decent base for comparison, but there is still a big difference between that and a fight to the death. I've never done SCA, but I was an amateur PKA kickboxer for a few years, and I've also been in a few street fights. Being in the ring in a controlled environment with rules and referees is a lot different than having some drunk lunatic wanting to kill you. I was much more comfortable and relaxed inside the ring than I ever was outside of it in a real situation. In fantasy RPG's, the characters are fighting for their lives, and the creatures are trying to kill them, not score lots of points and win a contest. That's why I created the Battle Fatigue system the way I did. In D&D, HP are not supposed to only be a reflection of physical damage. It's an abstract concept to gauge how well a creature is holding up in a fight for its life. In the Battle Fatigue system, if you are kicking butt and not taking any HP damage, by the game's rules you aren't really suffering from combat stress, fear, and physical fatigue from moving around and swinging heavy things around. But as your HP go down, you are less effective in combat because all of those factors are in place as reflected by your lowered HP total. I know this kind of idea isn't for everyone. But in all the forums I like to spend time in, there is certainly evidence of a sizable group that likes a more gritty and dicey feel to combat than Core offers. There are a lot of ways to do this, and I like reading about all of them. As a DM, anything that helps me paint a better picture of the battle gets a cookie in my book! :D
Scion of Coldshard 12-10-07, 04:52 PM	How about something fairly easy to keep track of? At the beginning of a normal combat each character has a number of 'rest points' equal to their con score. After any given action they either gain or lose some number of points. Lets say each single attack takes 1, each full attack takes 2, moving takes 1, withdrawing takes 2, charging takes 2, a spell takes as many as the spell level, etc. A move action may be used to rest for a breif time, catching ones breath, and regains 1 rest point. A full round action and doing nothing else may be used to recover 3 points. Whenever you run out of rest points you get a point of fatigue rating and your rest point pool is refreshed up to half of what it was last time it started going down (round down). Each fatigue point reduces all die rolls by 1 and they stack with one another. When you have 3 or more fatigue points you are considered Fatigued until you have less than 3 (if you were already Fatigued then you are exhausted). When you have 6 or more you are considered Exhausted (if you were already exhausted then you are unconscious). If you ever refresh and your pool stays 0 (ie it was 1 before) then you fall unconscious. 5 ranks in concentration lets you treat yourself as having 1 less fatigue point. The endurance feat gives you 4 more rest points. Keep track of each of these with different colored stones and it should be lightning quick and easy. I would say blue stones for rest points and red stones for fatigue points. Quick, dirty, easy, abstract.. the only fine tuning really needed is how many rest points each action uses up.
Lord_Ao 12-10-07, 05:13 PM	A typical boxing round is 3 minutes. Most boxers can go at least 5 without suffering anything like D&D fatigue. Even considering that they get breaks between rounds, that's still 150 D&D rounds before even considering fatigue. Combat doesn't last that long. Yes, but that is not taking into account the weight of armour, weapons and equipment. In my opinion, the weight category of your armour and equipment, and the weight of your weapons and/or shield should be taken into account...with heavy armour, lots of equipment, and larger weapons resulting in a significant reduction in the time it takes to become fatigued and lighter gear equals a lesser reduction. Obviously no gear at all would result in no reduction. That is my opinion anyways
Goof 12-10-07, 05:14 PM	SCA is not re-enactment, There are basicly two combat styles. Hard suits Using solid rattan sticks insted of swords. Wrapped in ducttape so that stick lasts and doesn't splinter. You will have bruses, and worse if you don't have good armor. http://youtube.com/watch?v=hQjh8EQ5h40 (not that good, but shows how large it can be) Soft suits/Dueliests Use real raipier blades. But isn't full force. I do aggree there is a diference when you wont lose your life by losing the battle. But my point wants a bunch of no skills wont tire someone down like a few people close to his lvl, or at your lvl. And that the fatigue would not be something as drastick as -4 after a few min of fighting.
The_Levitator 12-10-07, 06:19 PM	SCA is not re-enactment, There are basicly two combat styles. Hard suits Using solid rattan sticks insted of swords. Wrapped in ducttape so that stick lasts and doesn't splinter. You will have bruses, and worse if you don't have good armor. http://youtube.com/watch?v=hQjh8EQ5h40 (not that good, but shows how large it can be) Soft suits/Dueliests Use real raipier blades. But isn't full force. I do aggree there is a diference when you wont lose your life by losing the battle. But my point wants a bunch of no skills wont tire someone down like a few people close to his lvl, or at your lvl. And that the fatigue would not be something as drastick as -4 after a few min of fighting. I didn't mean to sound like was minimalize the SCA. I hope you don't think I was being derogatory. I have friends who have done both SCA and even started their own league doing the same kind of thing. I've seen the busted knuckles and swollen knees as I've been a performer at some of their events. I have nothing but respect for anyone who has the nads to step into any kind of combat circle. I was referring to the difference between a controlled environment with rules and limited consequences in contrast to a real life and death struggle where there is more physical, mental and emotional damage and stress involved. And I totally agree with you that any kind of combat fatigue should have nothing to do with the amount of time spent fighting. That's why I based mine off HP, as they are supposed to represent physical damage, emotional stress, and physical stress of moving at a maximum pace in the heat of combat. In my system, it would reflect exactly how you compare unskilled fighters to skilled fighters. Since unskilled fighters will barely be able to harm a skilled fighter, he doesn't lose enough HP for it to matter and can fight all day at that pace. Meanwhile, the unskilled fighter is getting picked apart, taunted, and systematically torn to shreds, which directly affects his strength and speed.
Johnathan_Vagabond 12-10-07, 08:47 PM	I agree, its a fairly simple system in the line of what I was thinking. Of course fighting nubs is easier than equals. And in DnD, those nubs aren't going to knock off nearly as many hp, unless they get lucky, and then you do get tired, because one good blow can take your wind out.