Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SiouLubb 11-22-06, 08:31 AM	Here's a challenge I've not seen discussed much: how would you maximize the melee effectiveness of a low STR character? (Kobolds, Rogues, Ninjas, Bards, etc) The quick fixes most used (as far as I've seen) involve Weapon Finesse. Besides that, what other means are there of making a combat effective weak character? Some of the problems I've encountered as a STR 6 ninja.... Near-impossible to overcome DR STR penalty makes hitting an armoured character very challenging If playing a small character, STR penalty ensures that only 1 pt of damage is the result 50%+ of the time Tactics I use currently Touch attacks/Ranged touch attacks, such as Alchemist's fire The Assist another action, trading my attack to boost another PC's attack Using Crossbow in Melee (risking the AoO) Feint, which doesn't do much to help hit a tank, as losing their DEX bonus may not matter to them or reduce their AC at all. Suggestions?
Arien_Drajanuma 11-22-06, 08:36 AM	2 things that might work: Try fighting from a high position, giving you +1 to attack rolls, and try to flank an opponent with an ally. Set up flanking positions every time you can. There's a spell in Complete Adventurer that allows your attacks to be touch attacks (don't remember the name... spectral strike, incorporeal strike, something like that, I have it in spanish sorry). It's a low lvl, assassin has it). See if you can get your hands on a potion, scroll or wand of that spell.
Kitaki 11-22-06, 09:04 AM	Wwell with rogues and ninjas you need to work on tactics like flaking, feint etc. Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike are there so that you don't neccisarily need alot of Str to do damage. There is a fun tactic using Slieght of Hand in Complete Warrior and allows you to attack an opponent flat footed.
draconic_swine 11-22-06, 10:05 AM	I second the sneak attack suggestion, although that means you'll have to dip into another class. Even if you only take one level of rogue, when flanking, you'll do a consistent 1d6 damage, and if you're willing to spend a few more levels, you can get fairly good damage, especially considering what it sounds like your current output is. This is sub-optimal, but you could always take a level of an arcane caster to be able to cast True Strike, although you'd only be able to attack once every two rounds, and the class itself wouldn't help your combat abilities. Some other suggestions that don't involve dipping into other classes: Get the party casters to cast Enlarge Person or Bull's Strength on you. Stick to ranged attacks, but stay outside of melee. Get a guisarme and take Improved Trip. Even with a Strength penalty that's a +6 to trip checks, you can help control the battle while letting the tank(s) do their job, and the reach will help you stay out of direct melee. That's another two feats (I doubt the ninja has a guisarme proficiency), but it seems to me that it's the best option. I wouldn't suggest Aid Another, since unless you want to give your ally the AC bonus, you achieve much the same thing by just standing there and flanking.
Evilclone 11-22-06, 10:39 AM	Since I'm playing a bard I use the bardic music and magic to improve my attacks. I also use the enviroment as best as I can, even a coloumn or an angle can be used to sneak attack someone (even if I don't do extra damage, I lower the enemy's AC) and I'm looking for flanking every time I can. However I prefer to keep a support rule: buffing, debuffing, healing, do my little damage and leave the others the work to take down enemies with massive damage ^_^
draconic_swine 11-22-06, 12:33 PM	Something else I forgot about: invest in some Gauntlets of Ogre Power or Belt Of Giant Strength for any low-strength character. It may mean less cash for more "useful" items for your class/role you fill, but at the very least they will reduce/remove your Strength penalty. A Strength modifier of 0 is very nice after you've been dealing wth a -2 thus far.
DarkRhystar 11-22-06, 12:37 PM	Suggestions? 2 level dip into Champion of Correlon Larethian (Races of the Wild). Gives Dexterity to damage against enemies not immune to critical hits/sneak attacks with Elven weapons. 1 level dip into Swordsage (Tome of Battle). Take Child of the Night or Island of Blades as your chosen stance then grab the Shadow Blade feat from the same book. Now as long as you're in the stance you chose (which can be all the time), you gain Dexterity to damage with the all the Shadow Hand weapons (Short sword, dagger, and spiked chain included...). This Dexterity to damage applies to everything (even stuff immune to criticals/sneak attacks).
Jaxgaret 11-22-06, 12:49 PM	1 level dip into Swordsage (Tome of Battle). Take Child of the Night or Island of Blades as your chosen stance then grab the Shadow Blade feat from the same book. Now as long as you're in the stance you chose (which can be all the time), you gain Dexterity to damage with the all the Shadow Hand weapons (Short sword, dagger, and spiked chain included...). This Dexterity to damage applies to everything (even stuff immune to criticals/sneak attacks). Holy smokes, are you serious? I really need to get a copy of ToB, like yesterday.
angryscrub 11-22-06, 03:38 PM	Here's a challenge I've not seen discussed much: how would you maximize the melee effectiveness of a low STR character? (Kobolds, Rogues, Ninjas, Bards, etc) The quick fixes most used (as far as I've seen) involve Weapon Finesse. Besides that, what other means are there of making a combat effective weak character? Some of the problems I've encountered as a STR 6 ninja.... Near-impossible to overcome DR STR penalty makes hitting an armoured character very challenging If playing a small character, STR penalty ensures that only 1 pt of damage is the result 50%+ of the time Tactics I use currently Touch attacks/Ranged touch attacks, such as Alchemist's fire The Assist another action, trading my attack to boost another PC's attack Using Crossbow in Melee (risking the AoO) Feint, which doesn't do much to help hit a tank, as losing their DEX bonus may not matter to them or reduce their AC at all. Suggestions? Hmmm, well feint will give you your sudden strike damage won't it? In combination with weapon finesse, you'd be able to hit, and do nice damage still. Also, why do you have to stay in melee? A better option would be to tumble out, and use your crossbow. Bluff can also be used to create a diversion so you can hide, and then get your sudden strike damage with the crossbow. Also, as a ninja, don't forget about poison.
SiouLubb 11-23-06, 10:22 AM	Hmmm, well feint will give you your sudden strike damage won't it? In combination with weapon finesse, you'd be able to hit, and do nice damage still. Also, why do you have to stay in melee? A better option would be to tumble out, and use your crossbow. Bluff can also be used to create a diversion so you can hide, and then get your sudden strike damage with the crossbow. Also, as a ninja, don't forget about poison. I do use these tactics, but one of my recurring problems is creatures which cannot be sudden struck. undead, constructs, etc. Plus, there are going to be times that my PC will not have time to reload or piercing damage does almost nothing (again, undead). One tactic I was intending, once I take a dip level in Sorcerer is to get a wand of shocking grasp. First, it's a touch attack instead of a melee attack, second, energy damage should bypass many DRs, third there's that nice +3 to hit against people wearing lots of metal. Hell, if I can later score a 3rd or 5th caster level wand of shocking grasp, I'm laughing.
MJuggernaut 11-23-06, 10:42 AM	One PrC that I found really helpful from Races of stone (RoS) is the Blade Bravo. They gain bonuses to AC just from moving and from fighting a Medium NPC/PC or larger. They gain a sneak attack, and eventually gain feint ability as a free action (It builds up from feint, improved feint, to Free Action Feint). the only restriction is Gnome and it's a 10 level PrC. It makes being a small Gnome Fighter worth it and it would be good for a fighter-esk rogue Gnome. Just an Idea...
Nom 11-23-06, 04:41 PM	Well, you forgot the most obvious way of improving to-hit: flanking. Of the examples you listed, only one really has appreciable melee ability - the rouge - and only if he can engineer flanking situations. If you want to take a kobold bard into melee, you need to either build the character for melee or accept that you're going to be ineffective. If you don't have sneak attack you're going to want 14 Str before racial mods. Dex and Weapon Finesse is an obvious option (most low-Str animals get WF as a feat or bonus feat for a reason), though you can also use a two-handed weapon to offset your lower damage die. Small size grants +1 attack, which counters some of the Str penalty on attack rolls. For almost any melee character, buffing is vital. Last session, my level 5-6 discovered what happens when you stack haste, inspire courage +2 (augmented from +1 with feat), and prayer on the entire party. That's a total +4 attack, +3 damage, +1 AC, +3 skills, +1 saves (+3 vs charm and fear), and extra movement and attacks. And -1 attack/damage/save/skills on some opponents. It turned the tide of battle.
Dheran 11-23-06, 05:45 PM	You want to play a Rogue if you've got low strength, then find ways to maximize your sneak attack possibilities. Because you'll also need to dip into some caster classes you should choose a race that will allow Rogue as your favored class. Normally your Rogue has two ways of qualifying for a sneak attack: Flanking Opponent denied DEX bonus to AC To increase your flanking opportunities, teamwork and mobility are critical. Partner up with a melee type and work together. It helps if you can move faster so that you'll be able to get around to a flanking square whenever possible. The Quick trait and the Clerical Celerity domain will each add +10' to your base movement. The Longstrider spell will add a further +10' enhancement, for hours at a time. If you maximize your Tumble skill you should be able to move in a straight line (through opponents or allies) to get to that important flanking position. There are a bunch of ways to deny an opponent their DEX bonus to AC. Having a high Initiative modifier means that you've got a sneak attack opportunity at the beginning of every combat. Improved Invisibility is your biggest opportunity for most melee attacks. Get a caster friend to help, or crank up your Use Magic Device skill and buy yourself a wand. Invisibility isn't the only way that you can attack unseen, though. Darkness is effective to let you Hide, but you'll need a spell like Ebon Eyes to see through it. You can also Hide nearby, and move up to your Hide ranks in feet to close for an attack while still staying hidden. Maxing out your Hide ranks is a must. The Telling Blow feat (Players Handbook II) adds a third qualification: Critical hit To increase the chances of Telling Blow working for you, use a weapon with a large threat range. A keen rapier with Weapon Finesse is ideal. One very important feat you need to acquire is Craven (from Champions of Ruin). This lets you add your total class levels to your sneak damage. Combined with your normal sneak dice you'll be able to do a lot of damage this way. There are still a couple of obstacles to being effective in combat, though: You need to hit Many creatures are immune to sneak attack Magic that increases the chance of you hitting is invaluable. With Weapon Finesse you want the maximum DEX bonus possible. Get the best Gloves of Dexterity you can afford. If you're effective at pursuing this strategy most of your damage is going to come from sneak attack. Forget elemental enhancements that add to the damage of a weapon; this is peanuts in comparison. Just buy as much numerical enhancement bonus as you can afford. You need to hit. For creatures immune to sneak attack the only solution is magic. And since the WotC spells that help you are all personal, swift, 1st level, and last only a single round, you'll need to dip into caster classes a bit. The useful spells are Grave Strike (Cleric/Paladin), Golem Strike (Sorcerer/Wizard), and Vine Strike (Druid/Ranger). You should start with a level of Cleric. This gives you the Grave Strike spell, which lets you sneak attack undead. A single level of Cleric gives you more help than other caster class levels because of the power of the Clerical domains. You'll want the Celerity domain for mobility. The Travel domain will let you cast Longstrider yourself, but you might also consider Planning to get the Extend Spell feat. Add other single-level caster class dips as you encounter different sneak-immune monster types. A useful investment is a Rod of Extend (Lesser). By extending spells like Grave Strike you change them from just allowing a single sneak attack to also allowing a full attack the next round. If you expect to encounter round-the-clock sneak-immune creatures, the Persistent Spell feat combined with Divine Metamagic (Peristent Spell) will let you convert undead turning attempts into 24 hour duration for one of your sneak-immunity bypass spells. (This requires the Extend Spell feat, mentioned above.) Buy Nightsticks (from Libris Mortis) to get more undead turning attempts to power this spell persisting. Well, there you go. A complete recipe for making an effective melee warrior with low strength. Enjoy!
Chimaera2000 11-23-06, 06:08 PM	Besides the Shadow Blade feat (which is highly desirable for your character), many ways to improve your damage can be found in Tome of Battle. For example, Mountain Hammer is a 2nd-level maneuver that deals +2d6 damage and ignores DR and Hardness for a single strike. Divine Surge will add +8d8 damage on a single attack. Higher-level choices like Finishing Move can add up to 14d6 damage on an attack, while if you have multiple attacks, Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip can add some sickening amounts of red damage. Other than that, you can play a spellcaster (not applicable to this discussion, I'm sure), focus on the crossbow using feats like Rapid Reload (PHB) and Crossbow Sniper (PHB II), or keep focussing on sneak attacks or sudden strikes and strike to maximize your chances of using them. On that note, if you find yourself facing undead or constructs often and use sneak attack, splashing cleric or sorceror levels to gain access to gravestrike or golemstrike might be to your advantage. Normally I'd just suggest wands, but there is debate as to whether a swift-action spell would trigger as a swift or standard action when using a wand.
Chaos Theory 11-23-06, 07:21 PM	I see that at least one other obvious solution has escaped notice. Get a brilliant energy weapon(preferable a light wep. finessable one) with elemental damage. Sonic is best as few creatures have DR sonic. If you are a ninja using a dagger and wep. finese AND bypassing armor, your ability to hit should be pretty good.
angryscrub 11-23-06, 09:13 PM	I do use these tactics, but one of my recurring problems is creatures which cannot be sudden struck. undead, constructs, etc. Plus, there are going to be times that my PC will not have time to reload or piercing damage does almost nothing (again, undead). One tactic I was intending, once I take a dip level in Sorcerer is to get a wand of shocking grasp. First, it's a touch attack instead of a melee attack, second, energy damage should bypass many DRs, third there's that nice +3 to hit against people wearing lots of metal. Hell, if I can later score a 3rd or 5th caster level wand of shocking grasp, I'm laughing. Jeesh, and ninjas don't get UMD as a class skill, do they? Rough. Well, I don't know what level you are or how much money you have, but if you're fighting a lot of undead, look into getting a disrupting and/or holy weapon. A bane weapon is also a decent idea if you're encountering lots of these things. Bane is good too because you can apply it to your crossbow and stay at range. A construct bane crossbow would definitely help you out. I'd be a little wary of dipping into another class without full BAB if you're already having trouble hitting. Unless you do four levels of cleric, you're going to lose +1 BAB overall. Not sure you can afford to do so, unless you really are only ever fighting stuff that's immune to your sudden strike.
Vaelan 11-23-06, 09:35 PM	Sneak Attack, spells, and/or Use Magic Device. If you don't have any of these, you're playing the wrong class for a physically weak character.
EpicEvokerElf 11-23-06, 09:40 PM	You guys are forgetting, ninjas don't get extra damage when flanking, making them the WORST CORE CLASS EVER PUBLISHED!!!
SiouLubb 11-24-06, 10:09 AM	Jeesh, and ninjas don't get UMD as a class skill, do they? Rough. I'd be a little wary of dipping into another class without full BAB if you're already having trouble hitting. Unless you do four levels of cleric, you're going to lose +1 BAB overall. Not sure you can afford to do so, unless you really are only ever fighting stuff that's immune to your sudden strike. Nope, UMD isn't a class skill. Even if it were, I'd rather take the Dip level in Sorc than sink multiple levels worth of skill points into UMD to make it function on a semi-regular basis. Consider, you need 10+ skill points in UMD just to get a approx 50% chance of activating a scroll. Not worth it. I hear you on the cost of sacrificing the BAB for a level, but I think the trade is worth it. I'm looking at boosting my will save by +2, taking the Kobold racial substitution level which will give draconic heritage and it's bonuses, and the utility of the spells. I'm planning on Golem strike (takes care of construct problems) and sniper's shot (takes care of ranged problems w/sudden strike) from spell compendium. Plus Acid splash, which will allow me to get past some of the DR restrictions, use sudden strike damage, and is a ranged touch attack. I plan to be the first PC I've ever seen make regular use of cantrips in combat.
SiouLubb 11-24-06, 10:58 AM	You guys are forgetting, ninjas don't get extra damage when flanking, making them the WORST CORE CLASS EVER PUBLISHED!!! And you're forgetting that rogues don't get to attack from full-round invisibility whenever they want, while doing sudden strike damage. Rogues have to rely on working with a partner in order to flank and get their sneak attack damage, making rogues the worst core class ever. :D But thank you for your calm, constructive and reasoned contribution to the discussion. :D