Combat pickpocketing? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Combat pickpocketing? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Crinos
07-01-06, 07:14 PM I was wondering about something just now:

In video game rpg's, one of the staples is the thief type character being able to pickpocket items from an enemy during the fight. I was wondering if this could be transferred into the DnD game somehow.

So, what kind of penalties would a rogue trying to pickpocket, oh say, an angry drow elf during a fight be looking at?
Dheran
07-01-06, 10:06 PM So, what kind of penalties would a rogue trying to pickpocket, oh say, an angry drow elf during a fight be looking at? This is a pretty extreme example. First, you'll usually provoke an attack of opportunity, and if you take damage you'll fail your pickpocket attempt. Second, the vigorous defensive movement by your opponent has got to add some serious penalties to your Sleight of Hand check; I'd suggest -20, the usual for these "practically impossible" situations. Third, the angry drow gets to make a Spot check, and if they see you grabbing their grandmother's lucky rabbit's foot they can probably try their own Sleight of Hand check to grab it back before you can hide it on your person.

All that taken into account, if you don't get hit by their AoO, and if you make DC 40 Sleight of Hand before penalties, and if they don't Spot you doing it, you should be able to pickpocket a small item during combat.
Kanachi
07-01-06, 10:17 PM What your proposing is not really pick pocketing as this is something done in secret that the target is (hopefully) unaware of. This would instead be some form of touch or grapple check (to simulate you grabbing an item) that provokes an attack of oportunity and suffers a -5 penalty for each lb the target item weighs. I would also recomend an additional -10 penalty for any unuseually shaped or larger items.

If already within a grapple i would allow a player to try to pickpoket an adversary with a -10 penalty. This would simulate a character pretending to be drunk getting into a fight with an unsespecting target in order to steal a key or documents covertly (a tactic used commonly in films).
Crinos
07-01-06, 10:41 PM Okay, maybe the example I gave wasnt exactly what I was trying to get at.

How about this: A halfing thief is fighting a Drow. The drow has three swords. Two in his hands and one still in the sheath, could the Halfling be able to make a roll to grab the third sword and grab the sheathed sword.

Same thing goes for loose pouches, cloaks, and other things that can be pulled off the badguy during a fight.
Dheran
07-01-06, 11:36 PM A halfing thief is fighting a Drow. The drow has three swords. Two in his hands and one still in the sheath, could the Halfling be able to make a roll to grab the third sword and grab the sheathed sword. Yes, the thief could do exactly that, because this action is explicitly spelled out in the Epic uses of Sleight of Hand:DC 50: Lift a sheathed weapon from another creature and hide it on the character’s person, if the weapon is no more than one size category larger than the character’s own size.
Dheran
07-01-06, 11:42 PM What your proposing is not really pick pocketing as this is something done in secret that the target is (hopefully) unaware of. You're reading something into the rules that's not there. The rules for Sleight of Hand sayWhen you use this skill under close observation, your skill check is opposed by the observer’s Spot check. The observer’s success doesn’t prevent you from performing the action, just from doing it unnoticed. I'd say that you're "under close observation" by your opponent during combat. Despite this close observation if you're sufficiently fast with your hands you can manage to steal something from them -- that means if your skill check is high enough.
Crinos
07-01-06, 11:45 PM Yes, the thief could do exactly that, because this action is explicitly spelled out in the Epic uses of Sleight of Hand:

Wow, it's epic? That seems a bit... unessecary. I mean at DC 50 you should be able to steal the guys virginity without him noticing. I was thinking of a guy around level 12 swiping stuff off a guy.

Alot of penalites involved, but not entirely impossible if the guys skill his high enough and he's real lucky.
questionc
07-01-06, 11:51 PM Nothing in the description of Sleight of Hand forbids this, and provided there are enough penalties to the action, I don't see why not.

First off, note that the actions you are describing here are allready covered under the disarm rules, which allow you to take or manipulate enemy items using an attack roll.

As written, it appears that Sleight of hand allows this too, so I think it would go like this:
Standard action, provokes an attack of opportunity.
Primary hand must be free.
Object snatched must be unattended.
DC 30 to succeed.
Opponent is entitled to an opposed spot check with a +10 modifier to notice the attempt, whether it succeeds or not.

These are stricter than the normal pickpocket rules, without essentially ruling it as an auto-fail.
Crinos
07-01-06, 11:55 PM Nothing in the description of Sleight of Hand forbids this, and provided there are enough penalties to the action, I don't see why not.

First off, note that the actions you are describing here are allready covered under the disarm rules, which allow you to take or manipulate enemy items using an attack roll.

As written, it appears that Sleight of hand allows this too, so I think it would go like this:
Standard action, provokes an attack of opportunity.
Primary hand must be free.
Object snatched must be unattended.
DC 30 to succeed.
Opponent is entitled to an opposed spot check with a +10 modifier to notice the attempt, whether it succeeds or not.

These are stricter than the normal pickpocket rules, without essentially ruling it as an auto-fail.

Now you're talkin. Maybe a strength check should be involved too if it's something like a golden circlet or something hanging from his belt.

Thank's a bunch.
Nephlite
07-01-06, 11:55 PM I was wondering about something just now:

In video game rpg's, one of the staples is the thief type character being able to pickpocket items from an enemy during the fight. I was wondering if this could be transferred into the DnD game somehow.

So, what kind of penalties would a rogue trying to pickpocket, oh say, an angry drow elf during a fight be looking at?
DC 20 to pick pocket with Sleight of hand as a standard action opposed by their spot is they detect it. If you succeed at that 20, you stole it regardless of whether they notice.

There are no penalties using a standard action to pick pocket from someone with Sleight of hand.

They might notice you/you might roll bad, but you can do it.

Epic skill check DC 50 steal shealthed weapon and hide it.
If you are just stealing it (and don't care if they notice), roll normally same as anything else you steal.

Add -20 to check steal as a free action. You'll probably fail at low levels DC 20 to pick pocket with sleight of hand , but you can do it. Also mostly enemy will notice.
Dheran
07-02-06, 12:24 AM There are no penalties using a standard action to pick pocket from someone with Sleight of hand. Huh? What gave you this silly idea?

I'd say an Attack of Opportunity from using a standard action skill in combat qualifies as a penalty. Plus the DM is always free to impose situational modifiers to the skill check. Just because WotC didn't provide a table of standard penalties for different situations is not the same as saying "there are no penalties".
BloodSpill
07-02-06, 12:41 AM I'd impose a -50 penalty just to steal something from someone who sees you as a threat, but that's just me.

Of course, any penalty you'd like to impose would be negated if you made a successful Hide check, but then you'd still take a -20 penalty on the hide check for something that's similar to an attack :D

Not that I'm being helpful, I hate thieves.
Nephlite
07-02-06, 12:44 AM Huh? What gave you this silly idea?

I'd say an Attack of Opportunity from using a standard action skill in combat qualifies as a penalty. Plus the DM is always free to impose situational modifiers to the skill check. Just because WotC didn't provide a table of standard penalties for different situations is not the same as saying "there are no penalties".
House rules are terrible for discussing something.

When something is dicussed in the forums it is supposed to be assuming RAW (rules as written) unless otherwise stated at the beginning of the topic.

So there are no penalties. DMs could make Wizards have full bab: house rules aren't good basis for discussions :P
Dheran
07-02-06, 04:23 AM What house rules? I didn't propose any house rules, just stated that pickpocketing provokes an AoO as per the usual rules for using a standard action skill during combat.Table: Standard Actions
Action: Use skill that takes 1 action
Attack of Opportunity: Usually Plus restated the rule that a DM can impose situational modifiers as appropriate.Favorable And Unfavorable Conditions
Some situations may make a skill easier or harder to use, resulting in a bonus or penalty to the skill modifier for a skill check or a change to the DC of the skill check. Before interpreting a statement of the RAW as "house rules", please read the rules. It's both good manners and good sense.
Radijs
07-02-06, 05:36 AM Isn't there a good mechanic for this already?
It sounds a lot like a simple disarm to me.
Thorak
07-02-06, 08:26 AM Isn't there a good mechanic for this already?
It sounds a lot like a simple disarm to me.
Beat me to it.

This is a Disarm attempt, not a sleight of hand. The rules for snatching objects off an enemy are right there in the Disarm description.
Dheran
07-02-06, 06:00 PM While you can accomplish the same end with disarm, that's not what the OP was asking. Disarming an opponent is a struggle, with both parties making attack rolls while trying to wrestle the item of interest away. Using Sleight of Hand is an attempt at being too quick for your opponent to react effectively.

D&D is a fantasy role-playing game. Sleight of Hand is a tool to show off the fantastic abilities of suitably talented characters. Please don't rain on someone's fantasy if you don't have to.
Elora_Gwyre
07-02-06, 06:34 PM So far, everyone seems to be discussing Sleight of Hand used by a character against someone they are personally in combat against. What if the NPC is fighting someone else, and your character wants to use the distraction to sneak in and grab something? I'd say it wouldn't be too difficult, especially if your character was, say, invisible and quick...what do you all think?
Koda77
07-02-06, 06:51 PM you guys shoukd read the disarm rules i believe tis there check yiour local srd for info
Thorak
07-02-06, 07:27 PM While you can accomplish the same end with disarm, that's not what the OP was asking. Disarming an opponent is a struggle, with both parties making attack rolls while trying to wrestle the item of interest away. Using Sleight of Hand is an attempt at being too quick for your opponent to react effectively.

D&D is a fantasy role-playing game. Sleight of Hand is a tool to show off the fantastic abilities of suitably talented characters. Please don't rain on someone's fantasy if you don't have to.
In theory, you could do it, but it's limited to small unattended items. You could Sleight of Hand their dagger, but not their sheathed sword. And it provokes an AoO, unless you take a -20 to the check to do it as a free action. And the DM is free to add circumstance modifiers for the fact that they're actively defending themselves.

Disarm better represents snatching something off someone in a fight. You could sleight of hand certain things too, but you open yourself to big penalties for little real benefit.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Crinos 07-01-06, 07:14 PM	I was wondering about something just now: In video game rpg's, one of the staples is the thief type character being able to pickpocket items from an enemy during the fight. I was wondering if this could be transferred into the DnD game somehow. So, what kind of penalties would a rogue trying to pickpocket, oh say, an angry drow elf during a fight be looking at?
Dheran 07-01-06, 10:06 PM	So, what kind of penalties would a rogue trying to pickpocket, oh say, an angry drow elf during a fight be looking at? This is a pretty extreme example. First, you'll usually provoke an attack of opportunity, and if you take damage you'll fail your pickpocket attempt. Second, the vigorous defensive movement by your opponent has got to add some serious penalties to your Sleight of Hand check; I'd suggest -20, the usual for these "practically impossible" situations. Third, the angry drow gets to make a Spot check, and if they see you grabbing their grandmother's lucky rabbit's foot they can probably try their own Sleight of Hand check to grab it back before you can hide it on your person. All that taken into account, if you don't get hit by their AoO, and if you make DC 40 Sleight of Hand before penalties, and if they don't Spot you doing it, you should be able to pickpocket a small item during combat.
Kanachi 07-01-06, 10:17 PM	What your proposing is not really pick pocketing as this is something done in secret that the target is (hopefully) unaware of. This would instead be some form of touch or grapple check (to simulate you grabbing an item) that provokes an attack of oportunity and suffers a -5 penalty for each lb the target item weighs. I would also recomend an additional -10 penalty for any unuseually shaped or larger items. If already within a grapple i would allow a player to try to pickpoket an adversary with a -10 penalty. This would simulate a character pretending to be drunk getting into a fight with an unsespecting target in order to steal a key or documents covertly (a tactic used commonly in films).
Crinos 07-01-06, 10:41 PM	Okay, maybe the example I gave wasnt exactly what I was trying to get at. How about this: A halfing thief is fighting a Drow. The drow has three swords. Two in his hands and one still in the sheath, could the Halfling be able to make a roll to grab the third sword and grab the sheathed sword. Same thing goes for loose pouches, cloaks, and other things that can be pulled off the badguy during a fight.
Dheran 07-01-06, 11:36 PM	A halfing thief is fighting a Drow. The drow has three swords. Two in his hands and one still in the sheath, could the Halfling be able to make a roll to grab the third sword and grab the sheathed sword. Yes, the thief could do exactly that, because this action is explicitly spelled out in the Epic uses of Sleight of Hand:DC 50: Lift a sheathed weapon from another creature and hide it on the character’s person, if the weapon is no more than one size category larger than the character’s own size.
Dheran 07-01-06, 11:42 PM	What your proposing is not really pick pocketing as this is something done in secret that the target is (hopefully) unaware of. You're reading something into the rules that's not there. The rules for Sleight of Hand sayWhen you use this skill under close observation, your skill check is opposed by the observer’s Spot check. The observer’s success doesn’t prevent you from performing the action, just from doing it unnoticed. I'd say that you're "under close observation" by your opponent during combat. Despite this close observation if you're sufficiently fast with your hands you can manage to steal something from them -- that means if your skill check is high enough.
Crinos 07-01-06, 11:45 PM	Yes, the thief could do exactly that, because this action is explicitly spelled out in the Epic uses of Sleight of Hand: Wow, it's epic? That seems a bit... unessecary. I mean at DC 50 you should be able to steal the guys virginity without him noticing. I was thinking of a guy around level 12 swiping stuff off a guy. Alot of penalites involved, but not entirely impossible if the guys skill his high enough and he's real lucky.
questionc 07-01-06, 11:51 PM	Nothing in the description of Sleight of Hand forbids this, and provided there are enough penalties to the action, I don't see why not. First off, note that the actions you are describing here are allready covered under the disarm rules, which allow you to take or manipulate enemy items using an attack roll. As written, it appears that Sleight of hand allows this too, so I think it would go like this: Standard action, provokes an attack of opportunity. Primary hand must be free. Object snatched must be unattended. DC 30 to succeed. Opponent is entitled to an opposed spot check with a +10 modifier to notice the attempt, whether it succeeds or not. These are stricter than the normal pickpocket rules, without essentially ruling it as an auto-fail.
Crinos 07-01-06, 11:55 PM	Nothing in the description of Sleight of Hand forbids this, and provided there are enough penalties to the action, I don't see why not. First off, note that the actions you are describing here are allready covered under the disarm rules, which allow you to take or manipulate enemy items using an attack roll. As written, it appears that Sleight of hand allows this too, so I think it would go like this: Standard action, provokes an attack of opportunity. Primary hand must be free. Object snatched must be unattended. DC 30 to succeed. Opponent is entitled to an opposed spot check with a +10 modifier to notice the attempt, whether it succeeds or not. These are stricter than the normal pickpocket rules, without essentially ruling it as an auto-fail. Now you're talkin. Maybe a strength check should be involved too if it's something like a golden circlet or something hanging from his belt. Thank's a bunch.
Nephlite 07-01-06, 11:55 PM	I was wondering about something just now: In video game rpg's, one of the staples is the thief type character being able to pickpocket items from an enemy during the fight. I was wondering if this could be transferred into the DnD game somehow. So, what kind of penalties would a rogue trying to pickpocket, oh say, an angry drow elf during a fight be looking at? DC 20 to pick pocket with Sleight of hand as a standard action opposed by their spot is they detect it. If you succeed at that 20, you stole it regardless of whether they notice. There are no penalties using a standard action to pick pocket from someone with Sleight of hand. They might notice you/you might roll bad, but you can do it. Epic skill check DC 50 steal shealthed weapon and hide it. If you are just stealing it (and don't care if they notice), roll normally same as anything else you steal. Add -20 to check steal as a free action. You'll probably fail at low levels DC 20 to pick pocket with sleight of hand , but you can do it. Also mostly enemy will notice.
Dheran 07-02-06, 12:24 AM	There are no penalties using a standard action to pick pocket from someone with Sleight of hand. Huh? What gave you this silly idea? I'd say an Attack of Opportunity from using a standard action skill in combat qualifies as a penalty. Plus the DM is always free to impose situational modifiers to the skill check. Just because WotC didn't provide a table of standard penalties for different situations is not the same as saying "there are no penalties".
BloodSpill 07-02-06, 12:41 AM	I'd impose a -50 penalty just to steal something from someone who sees you as a threat, but that's just me. Of course, any penalty you'd like to impose would be negated if you made a successful Hide check, but then you'd still take a -20 penalty on the hide check for something that's similar to an attack :D Not that I'm being helpful, I hate thieves.
Nephlite 07-02-06, 12:44 AM	Huh? What gave you this silly idea? I'd say an Attack of Opportunity from using a standard action skill in combat qualifies as a penalty. Plus the DM is always free to impose situational modifiers to the skill check. Just because WotC didn't provide a table of standard penalties for different situations is not the same as saying "there are no penalties". House rules are terrible for discussing something. When something is dicussed in the forums it is supposed to be assuming RAW (rules as written) unless otherwise stated at the beginning of the topic. So there are no penalties. DMs could make Wizards have full bab: house rules aren't good basis for discussions :P
Dheran 07-02-06, 04:23 AM	What house rules? I didn't propose any house rules, just stated that pickpocketing provokes an AoO as per the usual rules for using a standard action skill during combat.Table: Standard Actions Action: Use skill that takes 1 action Attack of Opportunity: Usually Plus restated the rule that a DM can impose situational modifiers as appropriate.Favorable And Unfavorable Conditions Some situations may make a skill easier or harder to use, resulting in a bonus or penalty to the skill modifier for a skill check or a change to the DC of the skill check. Before interpreting a statement of the RAW as "house rules", please read the rules. It's both good manners and good sense.
Radijs 07-02-06, 05:36 AM	Isn't there a good mechanic for this already? It sounds a lot like a simple disarm to me.
Thorak 07-02-06, 08:26 AM	Isn't there a good mechanic for this already? It sounds a lot like a simple disarm to me. Beat me to it. This is a Disarm attempt, not a sleight of hand. The rules for snatching objects off an enemy are right there in the Disarm description.
Dheran 07-02-06, 06:00 PM	While you can accomplish the same end with disarm, that's not what the OP was asking. Disarming an opponent is a struggle, with both parties making attack rolls while trying to wrestle the item of interest away. Using Sleight of Hand is an attempt at being too quick for your opponent to react effectively. D&D is a fantasy role-playing game. Sleight of Hand is a tool to show off the fantastic abilities of suitably talented characters. Please don't rain on someone's fantasy if you don't have to.
Elora_Gwyre 07-02-06, 06:34 PM	So far, everyone seems to be discussing Sleight of Hand used by a character against someone they are personally in combat against. What if the NPC is fighting someone else, and your character wants to use the distraction to sneak in and grab something? I'd say it wouldn't be too difficult, especially if your character was, say, invisible and quick...what do you all think?
Koda77 07-02-06, 06:51 PM	you guys shoukd read the disarm rules i believe tis there check yiour local srd for info
Thorak 07-02-06, 07:27 PM	While you can accomplish the same end with disarm, that's not what the OP was asking. Disarming an opponent is a struggle, with both parties making attack rolls while trying to wrestle the item of interest away. Using Sleight of Hand is an attempt at being too quick for your opponent to react effectively. D&D is a fantasy role-playing game. Sleight of Hand is a tool to show off the fantastic abilities of suitably talented characters. Please don't rain on someone's fantasy if you don't have to. In theory, you could do it, but it's limited to small unattended items. You could Sleight of Hand their dagger, but not their sheathed sword. And it provokes an AoO, unless you take a -20 to the check to do it as a free action. And the DM is free to add circumstance modifiers for the fact that they're actively defending themselves. Disarm better represents snatching something off someone in a fight. You could sleight of hand certain things too, but you open yourself to big penalties for little real benefit.