Combat Reflexes & Flat footed - Is the AoO an action? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Combat Reflexes & Flat footed - Is the AoO an action? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ramble
08-21-05, 10:19 PM At the start of a combat, a character is Flat-footed till their first action is taken. The feat Combat Reflexes allows the character to make AoOs while flatfooted (with the assumption that they have a readied weapon threatening squares). Does this count as an action and so the character is no longer flat footed?

On the one hand it makes sense, otherwise a starting character with combat reflexes, a reach weapon and an 18 Dex, could be getting up to 10 AoO (5 surprise round and 5 before characters initiative) before he is aware of the fight to start dodging normally, but then the opposite where with just one AoO he is up to full dex and ready to fight is pretty potent too.

Ramble.
was_fired
08-21-05, 11:04 PM You can indeed get a tremendous number of attacks off before your initiative. It should be noted that you cannot gain AoOs against characters with total concealment so he is capable of being aware of them.
Board_Rider
08-22-05, 12:03 AM The way I read it (page 137, PHB) a person can get attacks of opportunity but is still considered flat footed for any other attacks (no DEX to AC) before his/her turn in the initiative order.
The text reads:
"Flatfooted: At the start of the battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flatfooted."

Emphasis mine.
Thats the way I play it.
Nom
08-22-05, 01:43 AM Action is used two ways in the PH. The usual one is as "a discrete thing a character can do, usually on his turn", as in table 8-2. The much rarer (and incorrect) one is as a synonym for "turn". You can see other examples of this in the rules for Combat Expertise ("until his next action") and Delayed Action ("if you come to your next action and have not yet performed an action").

Summary: if reading "action" as "action" gets an odd result, try reading it as "turn". It will usually make more sense.
Ramble
08-22-05, 02:27 AM Thanks for the replies guys.

The core issue for this player is the statement for flat-footed:

'At the start of a battle, before you have a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the intiative order), you are flat-footed.' P137.

And unfortunatly the rest of the paragraph is specific about the lack of dex to AC and that you can't do AoOs. It does mention the ability of Barbarians and Rogues to by pass this but not about combat reflexes.

The player in question sites under the description of an attack in the players handbook - 'In combat, the most prevalent standard action is an attack.' And under AoOs 'An attack of oppertunity is a free melee attack that interupts the standard flow of initiative.' P135.

The feat is giving him the ability to act before his turn, with an action, forefilling the terms of lifting the Flatfooted restriction. He sees the 'specifically' as being used to lead in the sentance of saying the flatfooted conditions in another way, not that it was intended as an absolute statement.

I'd prefer that he remains flat-footed, just because being able to attack ten times, includinging Disarms,Sunders,Trips etc, before being aware that you are in combat is highly amusing. :D But before we take this to the GM I figured I'd ask here.

Ramble.
Tony Vargas
08-22-05, 01:25 PM An AoO is not an action in the sense of no longer being flat-footed. Combat Reflexes allows you to take AoOs while flat-footed, but it does not negate being flat-footed. Similarly, Uncanny Dodge allows you to retain your DEX bonus to AC while flat-footed, but does not negate actually being flat-footed. Having both means that you can retain your DEX bonus /and/ take AoOs - but, you're still technically flat-footed... FWTW.
q'afuu
08-22-05, 05:32 PM Having both means that you can retain your DEX bonus /and/ take AoOs - but, you're still technically flat-footed... FWTW. Eligibility for Iaijutsu damage! :D

Anyways, for those that like to have a bit of logic instead of simple recitation of the rules: if making an AoO would make you no longer flatfooted, why would you be flatfooted in the first place? Assuming you have CR, making that AoO is not something you get to do because of any special virtue. You get to do so because someone else did something you had no control over, but get to profit from. If that someone else hadn't done that, you wouldn't have gotten that AoO. There's no reason you should no longer be flatfooted because of something someone else did and which you were not really involved in.
Ramble
08-22-05, 09:59 PM Anyways, for those that like to have a bit of logic instead of simple recitation of the rules: if making an AoO would make you no longer flatfooted, why would you be flatfooted in the first place? Assuming you have CR, making that AoO is not something you get to do because of any special virtue. You get to do so because someone else did something you had no control over, but get to profit from. If that someone else hadn't done that, you wouldn't have gotten that AoO. There's no reason you should no longer be flatfooted because of something someone else did and which you were not really involved in.

Fun thing about rules sets is logic doesn't work every time.

Lets set the stage. Soldiers X & Y, each with a longsword ambush, Soldier Z, who holds a ready Spiked chain, both striking from opposite sides. Soldier Z is surprised and unaware of the danger that he cannot effectively dodge them, but because of his combat reflexes feat is allowed to strike at each of Soldier X & Y as they approach, and because of his weapon finess feat uses his high reflexes to strike accurately even though he isn't aware enough of the exsistance of the fight to dodge their return strikes, for which they can have flanking bonus getting a +2 to hit him because he is dividing the attention he doesn't have of them because he is flatfooted. What was logical about this fight so far?

Thanks to everyone who replied, our GM has read this thread and ruled against it lifting flat-footed.

Ramble.
q'afuu
08-23-05, 01:37 AM ... the attention he doesn't have of them because he is flatfooted. Being flatfooted doesn't mean you aren't fully aware of your opponents (although it might well come about from not being aware of them a fraction of a second ago). It means your reflexes were too slow to put up a full defense. Combat Reflexes, despite the name, doesn't help with that - it only helps with your reflexes when it comes to offense. Either way, flatfootedness isn't the cause of being unaware of your opponent, it's the other way around.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ramble 08-21-05, 10:19 PM	At the start of a combat, a character is Flat-footed till their first action is taken. The feat Combat Reflexes allows the character to make AoOs while flatfooted (with the assumption that they have a readied weapon threatening squares). Does this count as an action and so the character is no longer flat footed? On the one hand it makes sense, otherwise a starting character with combat reflexes, a reach weapon and an 18 Dex, could be getting up to 10 AoO (5 surprise round and 5 before characters initiative) before he is aware of the fight to start dodging normally, but then the opposite where with just one AoO he is up to full dex and ready to fight is pretty potent too. Ramble.
was_fired 08-21-05, 11:04 PM	You can indeed get a tremendous number of attacks off before your initiative. It should be noted that you cannot gain AoOs against characters with total concealment so he is capable of being aware of them.
Board_Rider 08-22-05, 12:03 AM	The way I read it (page 137, PHB) a person can get attacks of opportunity but is still considered flat footed for any other attacks (no DEX to AC) before his/her turn in the initiative order. The text reads: "Flatfooted: At the start of the battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flatfooted." Emphasis mine. Thats the way I play it.
Nom 08-22-05, 01:43 AM	Action is used two ways in the PH. The usual one is as "a discrete thing a character can do, usually on his turn", as in table 8-2. The much rarer (and incorrect) one is as a synonym for "turn". You can see other examples of this in the rules for Combat Expertise ("until his next action") and Delayed Action ("if you come to your next action and have not yet performed an action"). Summary: if reading "action" as "action" gets an odd result, try reading it as "turn". It will usually make more sense.
Ramble 08-22-05, 02:27 AM	Thanks for the replies guys. The core issue for this player is the statement for flat-footed: 'At the start of a battle, before you have a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the intiative order), you are flat-footed.' P137. And unfortunatly the rest of the paragraph is specific about the lack of dex to AC and that you can't do AoOs. It does mention the ability of Barbarians and Rogues to by pass this but not about combat reflexes. The player in question sites under the description of an attack in the players handbook - 'In combat, the most prevalent standard action is an attack.' And under AoOs 'An attack of oppertunity is a free melee attack that interupts the standard flow of initiative.' P135. The feat is giving him the ability to act before his turn, with an action, forefilling the terms of lifting the Flatfooted restriction. He sees the 'specifically' as being used to lead in the sentance of saying the flatfooted conditions in another way, not that it was intended as an absolute statement. I'd prefer that he remains flat-footed, just because being able to attack ten times, includinging Disarms,Sunders,Trips etc, before being aware that you are in combat is highly amusing. :D But before we take this to the GM I figured I'd ask here. Ramble.
Tony Vargas 08-22-05, 01:25 PM	An AoO is not an action in the sense of no longer being flat-footed. Combat Reflexes allows you to take AoOs while flat-footed, but it does not negate being flat-footed. Similarly, Uncanny Dodge allows you to retain your DEX bonus to AC while flat-footed, but does not negate actually being flat-footed. Having both means that you can retain your DEX bonus /and/ take AoOs - but, you're still technically flat-footed... FWTW.
q'afuu 08-22-05, 05:32 PM	Having both means that you can retain your DEX bonus /and/ take AoOs - but, you're still technically flat-footed... FWTW. Eligibility for Iaijutsu damage! :D Anyways, for those that like to have a bit of logic instead of simple recitation of the rules: if making an AoO would make you no longer flatfooted, why would you be flatfooted in the first place? Assuming you have CR, making that AoO is not something you get to do because of any special virtue. You get to do so because someone else did something you had no control over, but get to profit from. If that someone else hadn't done that, you wouldn't have gotten that AoO. There's no reason you should no longer be flatfooted because of something someone else did and which you were not really involved in.
Ramble 08-22-05, 09:59 PM	Anyways, for those that like to have a bit of logic instead of simple recitation of the rules: if making an AoO would make you no longer flatfooted, why would you be flatfooted in the first place? Assuming you have CR, making that AoO is not something you get to do because of any special virtue. You get to do so because someone else did something you had no control over, but get to profit from. If that someone else hadn't done that, you wouldn't have gotten that AoO. There's no reason you should no longer be flatfooted because of something someone else did and which you were not really involved in. Fun thing about rules sets is logic doesn't work every time. Lets set the stage. Soldiers X & Y, each with a longsword ambush, Soldier Z, who holds a ready Spiked chain, both striking from opposite sides. Soldier Z is surprised and unaware of the danger that he cannot effectively dodge them, but because of his combat reflexes feat is allowed to strike at each of Soldier X & Y as they approach, and because of his weapon finess feat uses his high reflexes to strike accurately even though he isn't aware enough of the exsistance of the fight to dodge their return strikes, for which they can have flanking bonus getting a +2 to hit him because he is dividing the attention he doesn't have of them because he is flatfooted. What was logical about this fight so far? Thanks to everyone who replied, our GM has read this thread and ruled against it lifting flat-footed. Ramble.
q'afuu 08-23-05, 01:37 AM	... the attention he doesn't have of them because he is flatfooted. Being flatfooted doesn't mean you aren't fully aware of your opponents (although it might well come about from not being aware of them a fraction of a second ago). It means your reflexes were too slow to put up a full defense. Combat Reflexes, despite the name, doesn't help with that - it only helps with your reflexes when it comes to offense. Either way, flatfootedness isn't the cause of being unaware of your opponent, it's the other way around.