Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sucineri 01-06-05, 12:35 PM	I haven't really posted much lately..mostly because I haven't been playing lately. Anyway..I was thinking of mass combat or fighting in groups when this thing popped into my head.. ..when I was DMing my former group I was running Sunless Citadel, and I think it was kobolds that the group was fighting in the throne room where a key thingie is..anyway, my group was a bunch of really experienced players who have this stupid thing about metagaming (meaning since they have played Sunless Citadel and know it back to front..it gives them the right to not make search checks or check for traps, or roleplay or anything) even though I was running it for my friend who was new to the game at the time.. ..anywho..the kobolds came at them and the group was ready to kill some wimpy kobolds when I got the idea to have the kobolds all stand shoulder to shoulder in two lines. Front line holding spears in a defensive stance, and the rear kobolds throwing javelins. So to me, instead of having maybe 4 kobolds being able to fit in a line (since they each take up a 5x5 space and the hallway is I believe 20 feet wide (4 squares)), I had it so that there were 8 standing in the front line, and it was 6 or 8 in the rear throwing javelins at the party.. ..first thing MY DM said (he was playing in MY game) was "they can't do that, they need a feat to do that".. ..now to the point of my annoyance.. ..If you are in a huge army waiting on the field..it makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever to me that every single person on the front line needs to waste a feat just to be able to gain extra benefit from creating a shield wall..or being able to hold the line, or any of that stuff. I think that if the unit leader has the feat, all of his men should be able to know it automatically and benefit from it without having to gain levels to gain feats just for something that may not even be used. Holding the line, a phalanx formation, and all those stupid feats that exist to explain a strategy just are not needed and make no sense..they are not feats..they are strategies. Only ONE person in that whole army should need to know how to do this specific thing because they he can just yell to everyone "pull your spears! Now stand shoulder to shoulder and plant your feet firmly into the ground!" or whatever they would yell. Anyway..Strategies = Feats = Stupid.
evangelion1010 01-06-05, 12:45 PM	I'd allow them to gain benefits, but less so than those that had the feat. The feat represents training with the tactics rather than just being told what to do... would you allow your fighter to yell at the cleric "now really put some power behind it, and after you drop that guy, attack the next one" to give the cleric power attack and cleave?
Feng 01-06-05, 12:50 PM	I agree. Cant replicate the feat because it makes the feats useless. But I probably would have ruled that if the commander had the feats (you could almost house rule someone with the leadership feat could confer some bonuses) the soldiers under their command can do some of the things at a lesser extent. Mind you, sounds like they werent literally getting the benefits of shield wall or phalanx formation, you were just putting them there to block the passage way.
tarkin 01-06-05, 01:03 PM	"Waste a feat?!?!?!" What, you expect soldiers to get NO training whatsoever? When you join an army you are trained to be part of the army. EVERY single soldier in an army should be required to devote at least one feat to something the army considers their job. The roman armys trained their soldiers to fight like that, they didn't just do it. That training is represented by taking feats. Similarly, if you are instead a light calavary, you are FORCED to take the Mounted Combat feat. And if you are an archer, you are FORCED to take Point Blank Shot. That is what the training is about. You were ridiculously wrong about needing the feat. That said, what you should have done was say: "Correct. They need a feat. You notice however that these kobolds do not seem particularly alert. " You are allowed to switch out monster feats - the ones listed are the ones commonly taken, not a requirement.
Someone 01-06-05, 01:43 PM	Just standing there with ready spears/ polearms/ scorpions on sticks isn't a problem. The problem is the "doubling up" of creatures in the space. The easiest approach would be to have them count as "squeezing though", confined by their compatriots. But kobolds are small creatures, so they wouldn't be as cramped as humans would be in a similar situation. But they shouldn't have to be piled in to be a nusance. 4 of em with spears in the front, with 4 more behind them with reach spears, and another 4 behind them hurling spears. That's 12 pointy things going at the PCs every round. Against a typical 4 player party, that's 3:1 odds (just the way kobolds like it).
Feng 01-06-05, 01:47 PM	Am I wrong to think that smaller creatures can occupy the same square as one another? if I am, then they can't squeeze into the same square unless it is part of a movement, and even then, they can not end their movement occupying the same square as their allies. I guess it all depends on what you intended to do with the kobolds, because I would think "someones" suggestion that two rows with spears is rather formidable. But just giving them whatever abilities the hold the line or phalax feats bestows would be wrong, unless you switched out a feat and gave it to them.
Tony Vargas 01-06-05, 02:26 PM	There's nothing wrong with forming up battle lines. The only thing you needed a feat for was the 'double occupancy' thing. Small creatures do take up a whole square when fighting, just like medium ones, but there's a feat somewhere, I think called 'swarmfighting' that lets them double up. Aside from that, you were fine. Oh, and Improved Precise Shot (or a higher elevation) would be needed to throw those javelins without a cover penalty for the spearkobolds standing in front of the javelinkobolds, and Precise Shot to avoid the penalty for throwing into melee once the spearkobolds were engaged by the party, FWIW, though I doubt that's what he meant. :shrug: Oh, and if you really want kobolds to inflict pain on your vict- er.. PCs, that is - don't give them javelins, give them no-STR-penalty light crossbows. :smirk:
primemover003 01-06-05, 03:23 PM	Who's to say they didn't have the Swarmfighting feat... Tell your players to eat it. You're running the game. If they need a feat they have the feat. If your NPC needs the money to build his dungeon of doom he has the money. Your players don't know what the monsters in front of them know... even if they've played said module before... Punish metagaming with plentiful surprises!
Nayk 01-07-05, 05:21 PM	I got to DM that game once ... and then I played it after ... The more fun I got, is that as my new DM knew that I DMed it, he changed it a little bit, so that I could do whatever I wanted (like search the secret door where it was in the game... because .. it was now maybe somewhere else :)) And I liked it better than having a game where I knew everything before it come at hand. DMs are there to give good challenges to their players, and having a player that DMed that game is a good reason to change it, at least a little bit. And the way you did is PERFECT.. Just say "They need a feat? But then .. they got it! I changed it a little bit so it's not exactly the same then when you DMed it! Be prepared to some changes" And what about changing those fountains .. the good one become the bad one and the bad one a good one :) Oups .. the traps that was there .. is now .. hum 10ft nearer .. :) "You should have checked all the way long .. not only the last 5ft in the corridor .. that's hum .. unexpected from an adventurer! :)" And what about ... changing rooms .. extra monster at places, less monster sat other, differents ones .. Change Rats for hum .. a bat swarm? :D And look at their face .... that's similar challenge rating ;) "Hum .. the swarm just installed few days ago .. and they killed the rats that were there .. sorry .. but time passed since you dmed it :)" That way .. after encountering some changes .. they will really show how to play to your new player .. because you don't go to play "knowing beforehand what will happen".. :D Y@
Sucineri 01-08-05, 11:34 AM	Yeah, I actually did switch a whole bunch of things around during the adventure, and the experienced players were getting really p'oed at me for it..but the new player was having fun so all was well. And I actually didn't give the kobolds any real benefit or anything or had them fight any better, I just had them stand in the way with spears like a wall..to which the experienced players started screaming that I was wrong. And as far as soldiers needing to be trained feats as soldiers..I don't agree with that at all. A typical soldier in a D&D army is a level 1 warrior or fighter with standard human attributes (all 10's..maybe an 11 or something in strength) The higher rank people are higher levels and better attributes. So a level 1 fighter (human) would have 3 feats, and probably not the pre-reqs to even use half the feats in the list anyway. I do agree that the leaders with the leadership feat should convey bonuses on his army if he knows the feats..but I don't think that the typical soldiers should need the feat unless they themselves are leading their own groups. And not all the roman army was professional soldiers, there were quite a bit of common folk that were promised land if they served their military..which proves that MOST of the army was comprised of level 1 warriors or fighters who only did what they were told to do.
Nom 01-08-05, 07:06 PM	House-ruling on the fly... It's probably not unreasonable to allow Small creatures to pack into fixed lines over the normal stacking limits. However, once combat breaks down from lines into skirmish, they are going to find themselves in trouble (apply squeezing penalties), since they can't manoeuvre freely. How would I do it? I would allow up to 4 Small creatures in a square (or 2 in 2 rows of squares), armed with long weapons. Such creatures are oriented to face a 90 degree arc in a pre-set direction. In this direction, they can make Readied attacks and AoOs as normal. However, once a creature is threatened (technical definition) by an opponent, squeezing penalties apply. Being able to stand shoulder to shoulder with your mates with a long pointy stick is great when the opponent is at the far end of said stick. It's not so great when he's closer than the end of your stick and swinging a big sword, and you can't dodge without tripping over said mates. D&D rules are skirmish rules, and generally don't support any sort of close-formation fighting.