Combat Tactics [Archive] - Wizards Community

Combat Tactics [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nimloh
07-26-06, 07:34 PM I have some questions that I could use some help on. I played DnD a long time ago and I'm just getting back into it now. The 3.5 version is very different from the first edition that I played with. I don't recall all of the tactics like trip, disarm, sunder, etc being quantified, or the systematic way in which a round as been defined. I'm going to be playing soon and want to figure this out now. So, a couple of questions...

1. How useful do you find tactics like trip, disarm, sunder, etc, to be? Do players in your group tend to avoid them or do they use them fairly frequently?

2. I have a question about trip. Lets say that I have been engaged in melee with my opponent. Lets also say that I have the initiative. So the beginning of a new round I declare that I want to try to trip my opponent (I'm wielding a halberd). This is a standard action. I succeed, and my opponent is tripped. Since tripping is a standard action, I can't attack this round (lets say I don't have multiple attacks). If I don't move, all I can do is just stand there (no other move actions are useful--I want to kill my opponent).

Now it's his turn. He uses a move action to stand up. Then he uses a standard action to attack me. I take damage. Round is over for us. I took damage and he didn't.

Obviously tripping isn't useful in the way I describe. How might the use of tripping be effective and practical? Do I need multiple attacks for it to be useful? Do I need to move after I trip him, forcing him to come back to me, and thus giving me an attack of opportunity?

How is tripping used effectively?
Plothos
07-26-06, 07:52 PM I have some questions that I could use some help on. I played DnD a long time ago and I'm just getting back into it now. The 3.5 version is very different from the first edition that I played with. I don't recall all of the tactics like trip, disarm, sunder, etc being quantified, or the systematic way in which a round as been defined. I'm going to be playing soon and want to figure this out now. So, a couple of questions...

1. How useful do you find tactics like trip, disarm, sunder, etc, to be? Do players in your group tend to avoid them or do they use them fairly frequently?

2. I have a question about trip. Lets say that I have been engaged in melee with my opponent. Lets also say that I have the initiative. So the beginning of a new round I declare that I want to try to trip my opponent (I'm wielding a halberd). This is a standard action. I succeed, and my opponent is tripped. Since tripping is a standard action, I can't attack this round (lets say I don't have multiple attacks). If I don't move, all I can do is just stand there (no other move actions are useful--I want to kill my opponent).

Now it's his turn. He uses a move action to stand up. Then he uses a standard action to attack me. I take damage. Round is over for us. I took damage and he didn't.

Obviously tripping isn't useful in the way I describe. How might the use of tripping be effective and practical? Do I need multiple attacks for it to be useful? Do I need to move after I trip him, forcing him to come back to me, and thus giving me an attack of opportunity?

How is tripping used effectively?1. These sorts of actions have their uses, but usually only in specific situations. You'll often be fighting large enemies that don't hold weapons, so tripping is often nigh impossible and sundering totally useless. But if you fight a lot of humanoids, they're often very very handy. A guy with high AC can often be easily tripped, and when he's down all your buddies get a nice +4 to hit him, and he has to waste his move to stand up, meaning he can't maneuver and can't use a full attack or any full round actions. A good DM will usually reward players who invest in these tactics by presenting them with opportunities to use them. He will also present them with many situations when they're useless, and they'll have to adjust.

2. First off, if you have the improved trip feat, you get to attack him after tripping him (with the +4 because he's prone). Secondly, when he stands up he provokes an attack of opportunity, which you also get to take when he's prone, so you get one attack against him even without improved trip, and it's at +4 to hit. Plus, as stated above, any friends you have in the area can come over and pound him; and he's prevented from moving around or doing anything that requires a full round action (unless he doesn't mind staying prone). So tripping is often very nice. I've got a monk character who does far more damage with his unarmed strike than his pimped out spiked chain, but he still uses that chain a lot to trip opponents at range, because tripping is sweet. :) It's just hard to do against strong/large opponents.
arjomanes
07-26-06, 07:56 PM A few things:

1. Standing from prone provokes an Attack of Opportunity. You moved up and tripped your opponent. Your turn ends. On his turn he uses a move action to stand and you get a free attack and he has a -4 to AC since he is still prone when you attack (you can assume he is still on the ground attempting to stand when you use your AoO). He then gets to attack you.

2. The Improved Trip feat allows you a free attack if you trip. Anyone interested in tripping in combat much should take this feat. You move, trip (with a +4 bonus), then can make your attack as if you hadn't used it to trip your opponent (and your opponent has a -4 AC for being prone).

3. Multiple attacks on a full attack, either with Two-Weapon Fighting or 6 or higher BAB (Base Atttack Bonus), allows you to trip, then attack. Or with Improved Trip: trip, then attack twice (against the -4 AC).

Example of 6th level fighter with Improved Trip:
Move up and trip. Make free attack (opponent has -4 AC) because you have the Improved Trip feat. Opponent stands, and you get a free attack of opportunity (opponent has -4 AC). Opponent attacks once. You trip, get free attack (opponent has -4 AC), make second attack (opponent has -4 AC). If he's still alive, he provokes another AoO to stand again. Then he attacks.

You get 5 attacks. Your opponent gets 2.

This way you force him to use a move action to stand, which provokes an attack of opportunity, and doesn't allow him to use a full attack to make more than one attack, and you can make all your attacks against his -4 AC for being prone.

Example of 6th level fighter not tripping:
Move up and attack. Opponent uses a full attack to attack twice. You use a full attack to attack twice. Your opponent uses a full attack to attack twice.

You get 3 attacks. Your opponent gets 4.

Your opponent is ahead by one attack since he could make a full attack, while you could only attack once because you had to move.

It's more effective when you have multiple attacks and face an opponent with multiple attacks, but it's still useful at low levels because of the bonus to hit and the attack of opportunity you get to take.

(edited to remove unneccesary acronyms)
Nimloh
07-26-06, 08:18 PM Ahhhh... I forgot you an AoO when he tries to stand up. Thanks for the responses.
Thane26425
07-26-06, 09:38 PM Improved Trip is definitely the best of those feats. Sunder is OK but at higher levels using it will ruin valuable weapons you could use or sell. Disarm is ok too, but lots of creature don't use weapons or, if you disarm them, they will either draw another weapon or jump you and grapple.

Trip them though and and they can't attack as well, they are easier to hit and you get to hit more often. Just beware being tripped yourself if you fail to take them down. As for the big things you can't trip, that's just the way it is.
Carai_al_Caldazar
07-27-06, 03:13 AM Sunder is OK but at higher levels using it will ruin valuable weapons you could use or sell.

:rofl: :rofl: Thane would prefer meeting the valuable weapon personally, instead of chosing the save option...
Seriously.. it is very hard to sunder magical weapons. Each +1 adds an additional +2 to hardness and +10 to hitpoints
natural_selection
07-27-06, 12:03 PM Do no sunder. You might want the equipment.
Triping is a good combat option. In my experience it is best used when you have an animal companion (as a druid or ranger) and obtain a wolf. A wolf is good at triping. He attacks normaly, if he succeds he can make a free triping action with no risks.

As a dm I love punishing my group with some worgs who can trip as part of their attack too. This makes up for some obscure party- crawling experiences, when the pcs try to avoid the aoo for standing up.
SurfingMonkey
07-27-06, 01:18 PM First of all, Trip is the only good one in my opinion. Other situations are rare and the end result is not allways that good either. That said, unless you have a particular concept you wish to develop in combat. The simple truth is, Damage is what you want. Unless the campain is low power and or full of humanoid type enemies.
Finarin Panjoro
07-27-06, 01:54 PM Don't discount disarm. It doesn't destroy your treasure and can be tremendously helpful if you use a little teamwork. My players once encountered two guisarme weilding giant gnolls who were using improved trip and had 20 foot reach. The instant they were disarmed the battle became much easier. The trick was they would disarm and then the invisible sorceror picked up the weapon and moved away with it. The monsters couldn't pursue without provoking multiple attacks of opportunity from the other party members.

In most cases once you disarm the creature it doesn't threaten anymore so your ally can grab the weapon without worrying about the AoO it would normally provoke.

Its also great if you're up against someone who is using a particulalry powerful magic weapon or item (like a wand). In another case, the party was facing a large group of gnolls with a gnoll shaman using a wand of lightning bolt. They disarmed the shaman, the rogue picked up the wand and used Use Magic Device to activate it. She nearly ended the encounter by taking out better than half the gnolls present (the PCs didn't have a primary caster for this encounter).

So like I say, disarm has some advantages.

But trip is definitely great.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nimloh 07-26-06, 07:34 PM	I have some questions that I could use some help on. I played DnD a long time ago and I'm just getting back into it now. The 3.5 version is very different from the first edition that I played with. I don't recall all of the tactics like trip, disarm, sunder, etc being quantified, or the systematic way in which a round as been defined. I'm going to be playing soon and want to figure this out now. So, a couple of questions... 1. How useful do you find tactics like trip, disarm, sunder, etc, to be? Do players in your group tend to avoid them or do they use them fairly frequently? 2. I have a question about trip. Lets say that I have been engaged in melee with my opponent. Lets also say that I have the initiative. So the beginning of a new round I declare that I want to try to trip my opponent (I'm wielding a halberd). This is a standard action. I succeed, and my opponent is tripped. Since tripping is a standard action, I can't attack this round (lets say I don't have multiple attacks). If I don't move, all I can do is just stand there (no other move actions are useful--I want to kill my opponent). Now it's his turn. He uses a move action to stand up. Then he uses a standard action to attack me. I take damage. Round is over for us. I took damage and he didn't. Obviously tripping isn't useful in the way I describe. How might the use of tripping be effective and practical? Do I need multiple attacks for it to be useful? Do I need to move after I trip him, forcing him to come back to me, and thus giving me an attack of opportunity? How is tripping used effectively?
Plothos 07-26-06, 07:52 PM	I have some questions that I could use some help on. I played DnD a long time ago and I'm just getting back into it now. The 3.5 version is very different from the first edition that I played with. I don't recall all of the tactics like trip, disarm, sunder, etc being quantified, or the systematic way in which a round as been defined. I'm going to be playing soon and want to figure this out now. So, a couple of questions... 1. How useful do you find tactics like trip, disarm, sunder, etc, to be? Do players in your group tend to avoid them or do they use them fairly frequently? 2. I have a question about trip. Lets say that I have been engaged in melee with my opponent. Lets also say that I have the initiative. So the beginning of a new round I declare that I want to try to trip my opponent (I'm wielding a halberd). This is a standard action. I succeed, and my opponent is tripped. Since tripping is a standard action, I can't attack this round (lets say I don't have multiple attacks). If I don't move, all I can do is just stand there (no other move actions are useful--I want to kill my opponent). Now it's his turn. He uses a move action to stand up. Then he uses a standard action to attack me. I take damage. Round is over for us. I took damage and he didn't. Obviously tripping isn't useful in the way I describe. How might the use of tripping be effective and practical? Do I need multiple attacks for it to be useful? Do I need to move after I trip him, forcing him to come back to me, and thus giving me an attack of opportunity? How is tripping used effectively?1. These sorts of actions have their uses, but usually only in specific situations. You'll often be fighting large enemies that don't hold weapons, so tripping is often nigh impossible and sundering totally useless. But if you fight a lot of humanoids, they're often very very handy. A guy with high AC can often be easily tripped, and when he's down all your buddies get a nice +4 to hit him, and he has to waste his move to stand up, meaning he can't maneuver and can't use a full attack or any full round actions. A good DM will usually reward players who invest in these tactics by presenting them with opportunities to use them. He will also present them with many situations when they're useless, and they'll have to adjust. 2. First off, if you have the improved trip feat, you get to attack him after tripping him (with the +4 because he's prone). Secondly, when he stands up he provokes an attack of opportunity, which you also get to take when he's prone, so you get one attack against him even without improved trip, and it's at +4 to hit. Plus, as stated above, any friends you have in the area can come over and pound him; and he's prevented from moving around or doing anything that requires a full round action (unless he doesn't mind staying prone). So tripping is often very nice. I've got a monk character who does far more damage with his unarmed strike than his pimped out spiked chain, but he still uses that chain a lot to trip opponents at range, because tripping is sweet. :) It's just hard to do against strong/large opponents.
arjomanes 07-26-06, 07:56 PM	A few things: 1. Standing from prone provokes an Attack of Opportunity. You moved up and tripped your opponent. Your turn ends. On his turn he uses a move action to stand and you get a free attack and he has a -4 to AC since he is still prone when you attack (you can assume he is still on the ground attempting to stand when you use your AoO). He then gets to attack you. 2. The Improved Trip feat allows you a free attack if you trip. Anyone interested in tripping in combat much should take this feat. You move, trip (with a +4 bonus), then can make your attack as if you hadn't used it to trip your opponent (and your opponent has a -4 AC for being prone). 3. Multiple attacks on a full attack, either with Two-Weapon Fighting or 6 or higher BAB (Base Atttack Bonus), allows you to trip, then attack. Or with Improved Trip: trip, then attack twice (against the -4 AC). Example of 6th level fighter with Improved Trip: Move up and trip. Make free attack (opponent has -4 AC) because you have the Improved Trip feat. Opponent stands, and you get a free attack of opportunity (opponent has -4 AC). Opponent attacks once. You trip, get free attack (opponent has -4 AC), make second attack (opponent has -4 AC). If he's still alive, he provokes another AoO to stand again. Then he attacks. You get 5 attacks. Your opponent gets 2. This way you force him to use a move action to stand, which provokes an attack of opportunity, and doesn't allow him to use a full attack to make more than one attack, and you can make all your attacks against his -4 AC for being prone. Example of 6th level fighter not tripping: Move up and attack. Opponent uses a full attack to attack twice. You use a full attack to attack twice. Your opponent uses a full attack to attack twice. You get 3 attacks. Your opponent gets 4. Your opponent is ahead by one attack since he could make a full attack, while you could only attack once because you had to move. It's more effective when you have multiple attacks and face an opponent with multiple attacks, but it's still useful at low levels because of the bonus to hit and the attack of opportunity you get to take. (edited to remove unneccesary acronyms)
Nimloh 07-26-06, 08:18 PM	Ahhhh... I forgot you an AoO when he tries to stand up. Thanks for the responses.
Thane26425 07-26-06, 09:38 PM	Improved Trip is definitely the best of those feats. Sunder is OK but at higher levels using it will ruin valuable weapons you could use or sell. Disarm is ok too, but lots of creature don't use weapons or, if you disarm them, they will either draw another weapon or jump you and grapple. Trip them though and and they can't attack as well, they are easier to hit and you get to hit more often. Just beware being tripped yourself if you fail to take them down. As for the big things you can't trip, that's just the way it is.
Carai_al_Caldazar 07-27-06, 03:13 AM	Sunder is OK but at higher levels using it will ruin valuable weapons you could use or sell. :rofl: :rofl: Thane would prefer meeting the valuable weapon personally, instead of chosing the save option... Seriously.. it is very hard to sunder magical weapons. Each +1 adds an additional +2 to hardness and +10 to hitpoints
natural_selection 07-27-06, 12:03 PM	Do no sunder. You might want the equipment. Triping is a good combat option. In my experience it is best used when you have an animal companion (as a druid or ranger) and obtain a wolf. A wolf is good at triping. He attacks normaly, if he succeds he can make a free triping action with no risks. As a dm I love punishing my group with some worgs who can trip as part of their attack too. This makes up for some obscure party- crawling experiences, when the pcs try to avoid the aoo for standing up.
SurfingMonkey 07-27-06, 01:18 PM	First of all, Trip is the only good one in my opinion. Other situations are rare and the end result is not allways that good either. That said, unless you have a particular concept you wish to develop in combat. The simple truth is, Damage is what you want. Unless the campain is low power and or full of humanoid type enemies.
Finarin Panjoro 07-27-06, 01:54 PM	Don't discount disarm. It doesn't destroy your treasure and can be tremendously helpful if you use a little teamwork. My players once encountered two guisarme weilding giant gnolls who were using improved trip and had 20 foot reach. The instant they were disarmed the battle became much easier. The trick was they would disarm and then the invisible sorceror picked up the weapon and moved away with it. The monsters couldn't pursue without provoking multiple attacks of opportunity from the other party members. In most cases once you disarm the creature it doesn't threaten anymore so your ally can grab the weapon without worrying about the AoO it would normally provoke. Its also great if you're up against someone who is using a particulalry powerful magic weapon or item (like a wand). In another case, the party was facing a large group of gnolls with a gnoll shaman using a wand of lightning bolt. They disarmed the shaman, the rogue picked up the wand and used Use Magic Device to activate it. She nearly ended the encounter by taking out better than half the gnolls present (the PCs didn't have a primary caster for this encounter). So like I say, disarm has some advantages. But trip is definitely great.