Combat Tactics? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTimePost
Maeren

09-23-04, 02:10 PM
I, as a DM and PC, would like to put some tactics and/or combo's into our fights with those nasty creatures. Most of the time we just rush into battle with charges. The spellcasters stay behind to give assistence to the melee-guys in front and the rogue (that's me) shoots from a distance with sneakattacks if possible.The party (myself included) see the baddies as a simple slaughterfest and it makes some battles last to long and sometimes even become boring.

But wouldn't it be nice to think of some tactics before charging in simply with a greataxe swinging above your head and hoping for a critical.

Does anyone know some of those tactics. Use the dungeon to your advantage. Or the envirment. Or using the help of items. Anything to make battles more interesting.
Tony Vargas

09-23-04, 02:25 PM
Well, the combat section of the PH is full of possibilities. There are actions you can take instead of regular attacks - trip, disarm, sunder, grapple. There advantages to reach. There's flanking and 'aiding another'. There are AoOs (trying to get them, trying to avoid provoking them). There are options like Full Attack or Readying to recieve a charge that make it more advantageous to let the enemy come to you. There are considerations like cover and concealment. There's varied or difficult terrain.

The basic tactic of engaging in melee while casters and missle users attack from a distance is certainly a sound one, though, against any opponent who can't get around you, and isn't employing a similar tactic. If you keep having simple encounters, with melee-oriented foes, in dungeon rooms and corridors that don't offer them any chance to get past your front-liners, it's a tactic that'll work pretty well.

For instance, against a high-hp enemy, your rogue might want to tumble into a flanking position to deliver a sneak attack later in the combat (if you go too early, a tough enemy may have enough time to kill you).
Thorak

09-23-04, 02:26 PM
Use a reach weapon. Realize that without tactical movement, use of AoOs, and tactical attacks like Trip, you'll be dogmeat. Engage steep learning curve. And I don't mean a spiked chain.

Specifically, if you think whacking things is fun, get Spring Attack, charge in, whack the enemy with your Glaive from 10' out, then move 5' back. He has to move 10' to reach you, meaning he has to provoke an AoO (and if he chooses not to, for some reason, tease him by Spring Attacking 5' forward, whacking him again, then 5' back). When he moves in, Trip him, with Improved Trip. Whack him when he's down. When he tries to get up, either whack him again with the AoO that provokes, or something else, like Disarming him. (Tripping won't work, not because of why the FAQ says so, but because nothing about being prone prevents you from standing up from prone. You'd get the extra attack if you successfully Tripped him, but that's just the attack you could have used originally, because he doesn't lose his action from being rendered Prone.)

And note that you've now hit him, besides the undamaging Trip, three times, assuming he attacked you right away. And he hasn't gotten close to you yet.

If, despite everything, he does get close, that's when you point out to him that you're wearing spiked armour and gauntlets. Intimately. Feel free to drop the polearm for a bit, if you want full whacking ability.

And for real fun, TWF the polearm to keep his buddies at bay while wielding your armor spikes as an off-hand weapon to keep attacking him.


And that's just the joys surrounding "reach". There's also thrown weapon tactics, things like Bull rushing someone off a cliff or into a trap, etc, etc.
Lanoitakude

09-23-04, 02:47 PM
Thorak, can you point me in the direction of the official ruling on tripping someone when they try to stand up from prone? I checked the 3.5 FAQ, and they didn't mention it. I remember reading something about it somewhere, but I can't recall where...

And I agree, using a reach weapon along with Spring Attack and the Comabt Expertise chain feats (trip, disarm, etc) can be deadly.

You say you guys just charge in? Have a battle covered with obstacles. Debris on the ground (limiting movement), large objects to obscure line of sight and line of effect, hazards (pits, cliffs, etc), uneven terrain (large portions of the battlefield are at slightly different hieghts). Have the enemies take full advantage or the terrain, skirmisher or geurilla(sp?) style.
Thorak

09-23-04, 09:26 PM
From the FAQ;
When a character gets up from prone, when does the
attack of opportunity take place? When he is still prone?
When he is standing? Can the attacker choose when to
attack? In one case, the attacker can get a +4 bonus to hit.
In the other, he can make another trip attack.
All attacks of opportunity happen before the actions that
trigger them (see Chapter 8 in the Player’s Handbook). When
you make an attack of opportunity against someone who’s
getting up, your target is effectively prone, and therefore cannot
be tripped. You could ready an action to trip a prone foe after
he gets up, however.

The line italicized is the one that's erroneous. Chapter 8 of the PHB describes AoOs interrupting the action that provokes them. It's impossible, by any definition of the words, to interrupt or be provoked by something that hasn't occured yet. We just had a massive debate on both sides on this in another thread, and the consensus is that the FAQ is wrong here.

But it's right in it's answer. Tripping a guy who's standing up from prone does nothing. Well, it renders him prone, and gives you an extra attack (the attack you could have made without bothering to try and trip, in essence), but it does nothing that has any actual effect. Because nothing about being made prone prevents you from standing up from prone.

Imagine this; picture a new AoO type, where you move a character into the same square they're in. I know, it sounds silly, but bear with me. If Bob tries to leave a square you threaten, you can use the AoO to push him back into the square. But he hasn't left the square yet (even though he's started to move; he just hasn't gotten 5 feet away yet), so he's used no movement, and being pushed into the square he's already in doesn't keep him from moving his full movement.

For the same reason, being tripped while standing just puts you back where you started. You haven't finished your movement, and nothing states that you can't complete the move by finishing standing up from prone. You can do it, but it doesn't work, not because of how AoOs work like the FAQ erroneously claims, but because of how standing from prone works.
Neofish

09-23-04, 09:40 PM
An ogre fighter with the Large and In Charge feat, a glavie, with combat reflexes. Nobody will get within 15feet of him.

If you have complete warrior, use 3 human warriors with phalanx fighting feat, equip them with shortspears and heavy shields and chainshirts, put them in a 15ft corrador.

I've got more if you want them, just tell me.
primemover003

09-23-04, 09:53 PM
I (and some of the extremely talented people from the PrC boards) made a 5 level PrC for Polearm fighters that gives the Large and In Charge feat as a class ability when weilding a polearm with reach. Use that as a basis and you'll have no worries... even if it's not a PrC it could still be a Tactical Feat.
Methos of Aundair

09-23-04, 10:00 PM
Also realize the players actions (whether they would warrant the attention of the BBEG) and how long they have been actively opposing him do play a major part in the tactics of the BBEG. My players once on several occasions went against the BBEG (over the period of a couple months) so the BBEG decided to take action. He hired out a mercenary band to actively research the players and prepare for an ambush against them. I of course had to use only information that was known (as in had been witnessed by others who were still alive) or could be found out through divination magic (taking into account protective spells or effects of the players). After a couple weeks of this the mercs began their assault. Note: my players were between 10th and 11th level at this time.

Starting off the merc arcane spellcaster used pre-prepared scrolls of monster summoning (targeting them of course behind something so it wasn’t that obvious) or other instances to cause the players to use up resources. The players realized something was up but didn’t investigate just yet, they decided to rest. This was what the merc band was waiting for.

Several hours after the players decided to rest the merc band attacked starting off with a feeblemind spell at the party wizard and a hold spell at the main fighter (read tank). It was a very tough battle for several reasons. One was that the players buff spells and protective spells had mostly run out and the casters were low on spells. Plus I used adventure type tactics with the merc band. As in improved invisible casters, the merc cleric using air walk so he could heal the sword-n-board guys. Stuff like that.

It was a great battle and the players seemed to thoroughly enjoy it. It took several hours to finish but it was definitely something they won’t forget.

My advice is to look for ways that would make combat different and interesting for both the players and yourself. This doesn’t always have to be so but at least on occasion.
angryman

09-24-04, 11:15 AM
Thorak, nice build, but...

Specifically, if you think whacking things is fun, get Spring Attack, charge in, whack the enemy with your Glaive from 10' out, then move 5' back.

When this happened to me, I just held my action until he did it again at which point I sundered his polearm. You could also hold to disarm, too.

He has to move 10' to reach you, meaning he has to provoke an AoO

This works unless he himself has a reach weapon, a ranged weapon, a spell, Mobility, tumble or a high AC. This only works against melee monkeys, really.

When he moves in, Trip him, with Improved Trip.

That's assuming you can trip him. It's not guaranteed as most people assume, and against Dwarves, it sucks. (+4 against trip)

This kind of thing is quite nice at low levels, but when you fight stuff that has a size or strength bonus on you, it tends to die. If you're the only fighter in the party, you won't have a tank because you'll be leaping all over the place.
Kakerate

09-24-04, 12:15 PM
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=312649

You will be the most powerful of your group by 5th level!
Thorak

09-24-04, 12:16 PM
Thorak, nice build, but...
Specifically, if you think whacking things is fun, get Spring Attack, charge in, whack the enemy with your Glaive from 10' out, then move 5' back.
When this happened to me, I just held my action until he did it again at which point I sundered his polearm. You could also hold to disarm, too.
Depends. What are you attacking again? I'm out of your reach, so you can't be attacking me or my attended items, like my weapons. Even if I'm whacking you with them.

It's a fine houserule, but not strictly core.
He has to move 10' to reach you, meaning he has to provoke an AoO
This works unless he himself has a reach weapon, a ranged weapon, a spell, Mobility, tumble or a high AC. This only works against melee monkeys, really.
At which point, respectively, you; realize you're equally matched and go toe to toe, close ASAP to whack him if he tries firing again, close ASAP to whack the snot out of the caster-type, nod with respect at the tactician who's fighting well, again nod, and Trip him, because Trip's a touch attack and a strength roll, AC is irrelevant.

The real problem is if he's got Spring Attack. Then he doesn't have to make any checks to get through your Ring O' Hurt. But I never suggested it was unbeatable, just generally very nice.
When he moves in, Trip him, with Improved Trip.

That's assuming you can trip him. It's not guaranteed as most people assume, and against Dwarves, it sucks. (+4 against trip)

This kind of thing is quite nice at low levels, but when you fight stuff that has a size or strength bonus on you, it tends to die. If you're the only fighter in the party, you won't have a tank because you'll be leaping all over the place.
Obviously, adjust tactics to the opponent. The burly dwarf isn't a good target for Tripping. So try Disarming, or Sundering, or what have you, instead.

See? Tactics! This is why I suggested that, to play a game more relying on tactics than just whacking, play a non-spiked-chain Reach fighter. Combat becomes a mind game, not just damage rolls, since you've got great power at 10' range, but are grossly vulnerable if anyone penetrates it.
primemover003

09-24-04, 04:44 PM
The Sage ruled you can ready a disarm or sunder against a reach weapon. If the weapon can touch me, I certainly can touch the weapon. It's not a house rule per se, but a more open interpretation of the readied action and sunder/disarm.
Thorak

09-25-04, 12:38 AM
The Sage ruled you can ready a disarm or sunder against a reach weapon. If the weapon can touch me, I certainly can touch the weapon. It's not a house rule per se, but a more open interpretation of the readied action and sunder/disarm.
The Sage is neither an official FAQ source, nor a source of Errata. And considering they just updated the FAQ today, and didn't include any such ruling in the update or in previous editions of the FAQ, what you're describing is one of the Sage's houserules. It's not official, and it contradicts the official requirement that you must threaten an opponent to attack them, not just their weapon.

I do agree that it's an intelligent houserule that I myself would use, and have suggested in the past. But a houserule it remains.
wolfhawk

09-25-04, 03:38 AM
To blow through the houseruling on disarm/sunder at range.
Ready your action to take a 5 foot step closer and disarm/sunder.
When he moves to 10 feet from you, ready action activates.
Step and disarm/sunder is an allowable ready action.
Hence, no polarm (assuming you win against a 2-handed weapon).
And the five-foot step doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, since it is the only movement you make during the round.
Vahenir

09-25-04, 03:53 AM
I won't discuss basic rules stuff, since that's been covered (and you can find it all, more or less, in the core books anyway).

So I'll say something entirely different - talk to the DM about, or as the DM you can work out - how you want combat to work in your games. Some DMs enjoy very cinematic combat. In which case.. find out what's around. Swinging from ropes with sword pointed ahead, kicking tables over at the feet of your opponent.. etc etc - all movie-type stuff. And with a DM who enjoys flavourful combat like that.. it can grant you favorable circumstances and small bonuses for you, or penalties for your enemy.

With that simple concept.. you can create unlimited tactics, all dependant on where you are. In a cave you might try using spells or even heavy objects to knock down parts of the "partially crumbled" wall (right onto the BBEG). On a ship you may, if you have a free hand, gain a bonus to a disarm attempt if you grab the ship's rigging and twist the ropes around your opponent's weapon.

Flavour is fun and with a good DM.. very helpful and creates great mental images for cinematic, exciting roleplay.

Just a thought.