combat underwater [Archive] - Wizards Community

combat underwater [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Duregar Stonehammer
05-07-06, 09:40 PM !!SPOILER WARNING!! I'm running "The Red Hand.." and one of the PCs has fallen into the water inside the hatchery pen in Rhest. The party already killed the Razorfiend in the pen - it was grappling the PC (who is now in the water) when it was killed and the PC fell in with it - and I'm considering placing another Razorfiend in the water to attack the PC while he's in the water.
Now, the DMG states that a character can hold his breath for a number of rounds equal to twice his constitution score. Aside from that, is there any other checks or such that need to be made during the fight, i.e. swim checks each round or whatever? I also welcome cool ideas for the fight. (the party can handle it - they're quite tough).
yonman
05-08-06, 03:43 PM Well for starters, if the person takes a full round action or any standard action, it counts as 2 rounds less for him to hold his breath.

If the PC needs to move he needs to make a DC 10 swim check in calm water to swim at all. Otherwise he can walk on the bottom of the water at reduced speed.

Don't forget about the penalties to combat while he is in the water. Check your DMG for those specific things.
primemover003
05-08-06, 04:01 PM Well you might want to look at the Swim skill. It is different than the DMG in this respect.
If you are underwater, either because you failed a Swim check or because you are swimming underwater intentionally, you must hold your breath. You can hold your breath for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score, but only if you do nothing other than take move actions or free actions. If you take a standard action or a full-round action (such as making an attack), the remainder of the duration for which you can hold your breath is reduced by 1 round. (Effectively, a character in combat can hold his or her breath only half as long as normal.) After that period of time, you must make a DC 10 Constitution check every round to continue holding your breath. Each round, the DC for that check increases by 1. If you fail the Constitution check, you begin to drown.
Now I know the Swim skill has been errata'd but I think twice your Con in rounds is far too long a time to hold your breath. No one will ever be seriously threatened with drowing in an aquatic encounter if even a commoner can hold his breath for 20 rounds (10 rounds while making standard or full round actions). Encounters rarely last more than 5 rounds unless the PC's are facing something well above their Party Level or dealing with a multitude of foes. Rounds = Con, -1 for each Standard or Full round action makes underwater combat more exciting and nerve wracking for those without the ability to breath water.
yonman
05-08-06, 07:56 PM Well you might want to look at the Swim skill. It is different than the DMG in this respect.

Now I know the Swim skill has been errata'd but I think twice your Con in rounds is far too long a time to hold your breath. No one will ever be seriously threatened with drowing in an aquatic encounter if even a commoner can hold his breath for 20 rounds (10 rounds while making standard or full round actions). Encounters rarely last more than 5 rounds unless the PC's are facing something well above their Party Level or dealing with a multitude of foes. Rounds = Con, -1 for each Standard or Full round action makes underwater combat more exciting and nerve wracking for those without the ability to breath water.

Have you ever been grappled underwater? Not a good thing really...

Plus, most people don't have the Swim skill, like wizards... or Full Plate Paladins...50' of water and they sink with one failed check, plus even if they make their check they have to swim 50' up.
Duregar Stonehammer
05-08-06, 09:28 PM Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou! I didn't think anyone was going to reply. That's all good stuff. I'll continue to look up everything ya'll mentioned. I guess I just stopped after I saw "drowning" on page 304 of the DMG. I don't know why I didn't look up the swim skill.....must be the bong water. Thanx again.
meatpuppet
05-09-06, 10:00 AM I think twice your Con in rounds is far too long a time to hold your breath I agree (except for David Blaine :D)

Now I know the Swim skill has been errata'd. Weird, I thougt so too, but I've looked in the PH 3.5 errata and couldn't find it...
primemover003
05-09-06, 11:48 AM Well the eratta doesn't have it, but the special edition PHB does. WotC is just really slow eratta'ing the SRD. www.d20srd.org already has the changes in place.
Have you ever been grappled underwater? Not a good thing really...

Plus, most people don't have the Swim skill, like wizards... or Full Plate Paladins...50' of water and they sink with one failed check, plus even if they make their check they have to swim 50' up.
You're right but it is an untrained skill. Wizards should be able to make a DC 10 check 50% of the time with a 10 STR and no ACP. Paladins in Full Plate should use that high Wisdom score of theirs when dealing with an adventure where crossing deep water is a distinct possibility. Sometimes it's wise to have a second, lighter suit of armor for sleeping in at night in the wilderness and swimming.

I'm running a Seafaring campaign and 2 x Con would have made most of our encounters fairly routine and boring.
yonman
05-09-06, 02:41 PM Well the eratta doesn't have it, but the special edition PHB does. WotC is just really slow eratta'ing the SRD. www.d20srd.org already has the changes in place.

You're right but it is an untrained skill. Wizards should be able to make a DC 10 check 50% of the time with a 10 STR and no ACP. Paladins in Full Plate should use that high Wisdom score of theirs when dealing with an adventure where crossing deep water is a distinct possibility. Sometimes it's wise to have a second, lighter suit of armor for sleeping in at night in the wilderness and swimming.

I'm running a Seafaring campaign and 2 x Con would have made most of our encounters fairly routine and boring.

Don't forget you can't take a "10" on swim checks with you're threatened....bye bye , gurgle gurgle
ShinAkuma2
05-09-06, 05:39 PM Now I know the Swim skill has been errata'd but I think twice your Con in rounds is far too long a time to hold your breath. No one will ever be seriously threatened with drowing in an aquatic encounter if even a commoner can hold his breath for 20 rounds (10 rounds while making standard or full round actions).

What's wrong with that? I can hold my breath for a minute (10 rounds) with a little effort...I think I could go two without passing out. Why shouldn't the average Joe be able to do the same?
JohnnyDoe
05-09-06, 09:33 PM What's wrong with that? I can hold my breath for a minute (10 rounds) with a little effort...I think I could go two without passing out. Why shouldn't the average Joe be able to do the same?

Adventurers are far from average, thus I see no reason why they couldn't hold their breath for that long.
ShinAkuma2
05-09-06, 09:45 PM Adventurers are far from average, thus I see no reason why they couldn't hold their breath for that long.

He was using commoners as his example.
Cthulhu-LQ
05-10-06, 02:18 PM I guess there is no free 5' movement underwater?
primemover003
05-10-06, 04:20 PM I only allow a 5' step if the creature has a SWim speed, otherwise you need to use a Move action to make your Swim check DC 10 (or higher depending on the water conditions).

And an Aquatic creature can take 10 on Swim checks... for the record.

I'm not saying that people can't hold their breath for a long time. I'm saying that 20 rounds with a 10 Con makes for a lackluster Encounter. Most encounters last 5-6 rounds. With no threat of drowning the only obstacles fighting underwater are movement and combat penlties... BORING!
maxbz
05-13-06, 01:27 PM Well then the problem is the assumption that all adevnturers are bad ass by default. Perhaps swimming shouldn't be an untrained skill. Or, perhaps, untrained gets you a -4. As soon as you invest a single skill point, you're back to no penalty (+1, obviously), but until then, drowning should be a distinct possibility. Seems naturalistic to me.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Duregar Stonehammer 05-07-06, 09:40 PM	!!SPOILER WARNING!! I'm running "The Red Hand.." and one of the PCs has fallen into the water inside the hatchery pen in Rhest. The party already killed the Razorfiend in the pen - it was grappling the PC (who is now in the water) when it was killed and the PC fell in with it - and I'm considering placing another Razorfiend in the water to attack the PC while he's in the water. Now, the DMG states that a character can hold his breath for a number of rounds equal to twice his constitution score. Aside from that, is there any other checks or such that need to be made during the fight, i.e. swim checks each round or whatever? I also welcome cool ideas for the fight. (the party can handle it - they're quite tough).
yonman 05-08-06, 03:43 PM	Well for starters, if the person takes a full round action or any standard action, it counts as 2 rounds less for him to hold his breath. If the PC needs to move he needs to make a DC 10 swim check in calm water to swim at all. Otherwise he can walk on the bottom of the water at reduced speed. Don't forget about the penalties to combat while he is in the water. Check your DMG for those specific things.
primemover003 05-08-06, 04:01 PM	Well you might want to look at the Swim skill. It is different than the DMG in this respect. If you are underwater, either because you failed a Swim check or because you are swimming underwater intentionally, you must hold your breath. You can hold your breath for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score, but only if you do nothing other than take move actions or free actions. If you take a standard action or a full-round action (such as making an attack), the remainder of the duration for which you can hold your breath is reduced by 1 round. (Effectively, a character in combat can hold his or her breath only half as long as normal.) After that period of time, you must make a DC 10 Constitution check every round to continue holding your breath. Each round, the DC for that check increases by 1. If you fail the Constitution check, you begin to drown. Now I know the Swim skill has been errata'd but I think twice your Con in rounds is far too long a time to hold your breath. No one will ever be seriously threatened with drowing in an aquatic encounter if even a commoner can hold his breath for 20 rounds (10 rounds while making standard or full round actions). Encounters rarely last more than 5 rounds unless the PC's are facing something well above their Party Level or dealing with a multitude of foes. Rounds = Con, -1 for each Standard or Full round action makes underwater combat more exciting and nerve wracking for those without the ability to breath water.
yonman 05-08-06, 07:56 PM	Well you might want to look at the Swim skill. It is different than the DMG in this respect. Now I know the Swim skill has been errata'd but I think twice your Con in rounds is far too long a time to hold your breath. No one will ever be seriously threatened with drowing in an aquatic encounter if even a commoner can hold his breath for 20 rounds (10 rounds while making standard or full round actions). Encounters rarely last more than 5 rounds unless the PC's are facing something well above their Party Level or dealing with a multitude of foes. Rounds = Con, -1 for each Standard or Full round action makes underwater combat more exciting and nerve wracking for those without the ability to breath water. Have you ever been grappled underwater? Not a good thing really... Plus, most people don't have the Swim skill, like wizards... or Full Plate Paladins...50' of water and they sink with one failed check, plus even if they make their check they have to swim 50' up.
Duregar Stonehammer 05-08-06, 09:28 PM	Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou! I didn't think anyone was going to reply. That's all good stuff. I'll continue to look up everything ya'll mentioned. I guess I just stopped after I saw "drowning" on page 304 of the DMG. I don't know why I didn't look up the swim skill.....must be the bong water. Thanx again.
meatpuppet 05-09-06, 10:00 AM	I think twice your Con in rounds is far too long a time to hold your breath I agree (except for David Blaine :D) Now I know the Swim skill has been errata'd. Weird, I thougt so too, but I've looked in the PH 3.5 errata and couldn't find it...
primemover003 05-09-06, 11:48 AM	Well the eratta doesn't have it, but the special edition PHB does. WotC is just really slow eratta'ing the SRD. www.d20srd.org already has the changes in place. Have you ever been grappled underwater? Not a good thing really... Plus, most people don't have the Swim skill, like wizards... or Full Plate Paladins...50' of water and they sink with one failed check, plus even if they make their check they have to swim 50' up. You're right but it is an untrained skill. Wizards should be able to make a DC 10 check 50% of the time with a 10 STR and no ACP. Paladins in Full Plate should use that high Wisdom score of theirs when dealing with an adventure where crossing deep water is a distinct possibility. Sometimes it's wise to have a second, lighter suit of armor for sleeping in at night in the wilderness and swimming. I'm running a Seafaring campaign and 2 x Con would have made most of our encounters fairly routine and boring.
yonman 05-09-06, 02:41 PM	Well the eratta doesn't have it, but the special edition PHB does. WotC is just really slow eratta'ing the SRD. www.d20srd.org already has the changes in place. You're right but it is an untrained skill. Wizards should be able to make a DC 10 check 50% of the time with a 10 STR and no ACP. Paladins in Full Plate should use that high Wisdom score of theirs when dealing with an adventure where crossing deep water is a distinct possibility. Sometimes it's wise to have a second, lighter suit of armor for sleeping in at night in the wilderness and swimming. I'm running a Seafaring campaign and 2 x Con would have made most of our encounters fairly routine and boring. Don't forget you can't take a "10" on swim checks with you're threatened....bye bye , gurgle gurgle
ShinAkuma2 05-09-06, 05:39 PM	Now I know the Swim skill has been errata'd but I think twice your Con in rounds is far too long a time to hold your breath. No one will ever be seriously threatened with drowing in an aquatic encounter if even a commoner can hold his breath for 20 rounds (10 rounds while making standard or full round actions). What's wrong with that? I can hold my breath for a minute (10 rounds) with a little effort...I think I could go two without passing out. Why shouldn't the average Joe be able to do the same?
JohnnyDoe 05-09-06, 09:33 PM	What's wrong with that? I can hold my breath for a minute (10 rounds) with a little effort...I think I could go two without passing out. Why shouldn't the average Joe be able to do the same? Adventurers are far from average, thus I see no reason why they couldn't hold their breath for that long.
ShinAkuma2 05-09-06, 09:45 PM	Adventurers are far from average, thus I see no reason why they couldn't hold their breath for that long. He was using commoners as his example.
Cthulhu-LQ 05-10-06, 02:18 PM	I guess there is no free 5' movement underwater?
primemover003 05-10-06, 04:20 PM	I only allow a 5' step if the creature has a SWim speed, otherwise you need to use a Move action to make your Swim check DC 10 (or higher depending on the water conditions). And an Aquatic creature can take 10 on Swim checks... for the record. I'm not saying that people can't hold their breath for a long time. I'm saying that 20 rounds with a 10 Con makes for a lackluster Encounter. Most encounters last 5-6 rounds. With no threat of drowning the only obstacles fighting underwater are movement and combat penlties... BORING!
maxbz 05-13-06, 01:27 PM	Well then the problem is the assumption that all adevnturers are bad ass by default. Perhaps swimming shouldn't be an untrained skill. Or, perhaps, untrained gets you a -4. As soon as you invest a single skill point, you're back to no penalty (+1, obviously), but until then, drowning should be a distinct possibility. Seems naturalistic to me.