Combat while flying [Archive] - Wizards Community

Combat while flying [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kruxx06
09-16-04, 12:25 PM One of my players has been using the alterself spell to change into a form with wings, and fight from the air. A creature using the spell to fly can only move at half it's speed through the air, and can only rise 5 feet for every 10 feet going forward. If they don't move at least 15ft a round, they fall.

My question is what happens when someone attacks then, and hits when they are flying like that? Would they fall?
Egres
09-16-04, 12:34 PM One of my players has been using the alterself spell to change into a form with wings, and fight from the air. A creature using the spell to fly can only move at half it's speed through the air, and can only rise 5 feet for every 10 feet going forward. If they don't move at least 15ft a round, they fall.

My question is what happens when someone attacks then, and hits when they are flying like that? Would they fall?
Why should they fall?

I think i didn't understand your question at all. :confused:
Shadowfax7
09-16-04, 12:41 PM I believe Kruxx is talking about minimum forward speed while flyting . . . If you don't maintain a minimum forward speed, you fall.

You need the feats Fly-by-Attack and/or Hover to fight while flying. Which feat depends on how you want to fight; dive in, attack and fly away or hover and fight blow for blow.

BTW, these feats are in the MM and normally not available to PCs. At the DM's discretion, they could be made available to PCs.

Using Alter Self to give you wings is not a good application for combat, but is very good for fleeing and/or scouting.
Kruxx06
09-16-04, 12:45 PM I believe Kruxx is talking about minimum forward speed while flyting . . . If you don't maintain a minimum forward speed, you fall.

The player in question has been using a bow to fire arrows. My question is along the lines of if you need a minimum forward speed to move, what happens when someone hits you with a greataxe, or a club. Sort of like swating a fly. Would they fall to the ground after being hit, their forward momentum would be affected.
strenoth
09-16-04, 01:03 PM But effects like that are not party of DnD physicas unless a special attack is made that says so.

All the character has to do is make another move actiont he next roudn that maintains the minimum speed forward.
Lilt
09-16-04, 02:05 PM I suppose it would be possible if the character had a particularily low maneuverability, and was going up against another character with the large and in-charge feat...

I just had an idea for a really strange character. A winged half-ogre with large and in-charge.
Gnomish Zombie
09-16-04, 04:11 PM No
Unless you bull rush him (and even then it's streching the rules, but for a good cause, IMO)
The only way to make him come down is to reduce his hp... when he is reduced to 1/4 hp (I think it's 1/4) all he can do is glide and he'll eventually be back on the ground.
btw, Kudos for your DM for applying the maneuverability rules on that spell... no one in my gaming group does.
kjenks
09-16-04, 05:00 PM It seems to me that you're judging this situation wrong in two ways.

First of all, the Alter Self spell doesn't allow a humanoid to sprout wings. There are no humanoids in the Monster Manual that have wings. So unless you're allowing the PC to change into some off-book creature or the PC is some non-humanoid race, he can't use Alter Self to fly.

Second, a flying creature can't get a full attack while flying unless it can hover. So this character would be limited to one arrow per round -- or Multishot. This isn't too scary in most situations.

Alter Self
Transmutation
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level (D)

You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.

You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.
You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.

You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.
Hypersmurf
09-16-04, 07:00 PM First of all, the Alter Self spell doesn't allow a humanoid to sprout wings.

Probably playing 3E.

"If the form selected has wings, the character can fly at a speed of 30 feet with poor maneuverability."

-Hyp.
kjenks
09-16-04, 07:15 PM Probably playing 3E.

Okay, make that three ways.
Egres
09-16-04, 08:38 PM The player in question has been using a bow to fire arrows. My question is along the lines of if you need a minimum forward speed to move, what happens when someone hits you with a greataxe, or a club. Sort of like swating a fly. Would they fall to the ground after being hit, their forward momentum would be affected.
Then this means that i have intepreted your original post in the right way.

And then i repeat...why should they?

There are no rules in D&D concerning this.

And you should accept it in a game where you can fall from an altitude of 15,000 feet and survive without many problems if you are a 10th level Barbarian,for example.
Kruxx06
09-16-04, 09:27 PM First of all, the Alter Self spell doesn't allow a humanoid to sprout wings. There are no humanoids in the Monster Manual that have wings. So unless you're allowing the PC to change into some off-book creature or the PC is some non-humanoid race, he can't use Alter Self to fly.

If you choose the form of a Celestial being (Angelic), you can have wings. (even in 3.5 if you read that spell description, although your manverability isn't as penalized as it is in 3.0 -- which we are playing in). It just seems odd that there arn't rules for that, if you take a good hit while flying, it doesn't knock you to the ground.
kjenks
09-16-04, 09:32 PM Yes, there are rules for all of this. See the DMG rules for flying and moving in three dimensions.

Assuming you have a flying archer who can't hover (Average, Poor or Clumsy maneuverability, without the Hover feat), the archer must maintain a minimum forward speed of half his flying movement rate. This always means that the flying archer must move at least 10 ft., usually further.

If you take more than a 5 ft. step, you can't make a full attack; you're limited to your movement and one standard action during the round. In this case, the archer would use his standard action to make a single ranged attack.

If the flying archer has the Manyshot feat, he can use that as his standard action and still maintain his minimum forward speed.

If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement. If it is too high above the ground to land, it falls straight down, descending 150 feet in the first round of falling. If this distance brings it to the ground, it takes falling damage. If the fall doesn’t bring the creature to the ground, it must spend its next turn recovering from the stall. It must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it takes falling damage. Otherwise, it has another chance to recover on its next turn.

For an example, check your Monster Manual for the Harpy Archer, whose movement is listed as "20 ft. (4 squares), fly 80 ft. (average)." These ladies have the Manyshot feat. With a +1 frost bow (Mighty +1), +2 arrows and Bracers of Archery (Lesser), they can do a bit of damage with that Manyshot.
Hypersmurf
09-16-04, 09:36 PM If you choose the form of a Celestial being (Angelic), you can have wings.

Alter Self can only change forms within your own type. Unless your type is already Outsider, you can't become a Celestial.

-Hyp.
Shadowfax7
09-16-04, 10:21 PM Couldn't it be a campaign where Aaracroka (sp) exist ??

I believe they are winged humanoids in FR.
BigNastyMP
09-16-04, 10:26 PM Our wise Sage, Mr. Skip Williams, has procured some rules regarding flight and combat. Check out the Rules of the Game section of this very website for information on minimum fly speeds, stalling, and other fun flying facts.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kruxx06 09-16-04, 12:25 PM	One of my players has been using the alterself spell to change into a form with wings, and fight from the air. A creature using the spell to fly can only move at half it's speed through the air, and can only rise 5 feet for every 10 feet going forward. If they don't move at least 15ft a round, they fall. My question is what happens when someone attacks then, and hits when they are flying like that? Would they fall?
Egres 09-16-04, 12:34 PM	One of my players has been using the alterself spell to change into a form with wings, and fight from the air. A creature using the spell to fly can only move at half it's speed through the air, and can only rise 5 feet for every 10 feet going forward. If they don't move at least 15ft a round, they fall. My question is what happens when someone attacks then, and hits when they are flying like that? Would they fall? Why should they fall? I think i didn't understand your question at all. :confused:
Shadowfax7 09-16-04, 12:41 PM	I believe Kruxx is talking about minimum forward speed while flyting . . . If you don't maintain a minimum forward speed, you fall. You need the feats Fly-by-Attack and/or Hover to fight while flying. Which feat depends on how you want to fight; dive in, attack and fly away or hover and fight blow for blow. BTW, these feats are in the MM and normally not available to PCs. At the DM's discretion, they could be made available to PCs. Using Alter Self to give you wings is not a good application for combat, but is very good for fleeing and/or scouting.
Kruxx06 09-16-04, 12:45 PM	I believe Kruxx is talking about minimum forward speed while flyting . . . If you don't maintain a minimum forward speed, you fall. The player in question has been using a bow to fire arrows. My question is along the lines of if you need a minimum forward speed to move, what happens when someone hits you with a greataxe, or a club. Sort of like swating a fly. Would they fall to the ground after being hit, their forward momentum would be affected.
strenoth 09-16-04, 01:03 PM	But effects like that are not party of DnD physicas unless a special attack is made that says so. All the character has to do is make another move actiont he next roudn that maintains the minimum speed forward.
Lilt 09-16-04, 02:05 PM	I suppose it would be possible if the character had a particularily low maneuverability, and was going up against another character with the large and in-charge feat... I just had an idea for a really strange character. A winged half-ogre with large and in-charge.
Gnomish Zombie 09-16-04, 04:11 PM	No Unless you bull rush him (and even then it's streching the rules, but for a good cause, IMO) The only way to make him come down is to reduce his hp... when he is reduced to 1/4 hp (I think it's 1/4) all he can do is glide and he'll eventually be back on the ground. btw, Kudos for your DM for applying the maneuverability rules on that spell... no one in my gaming group does.
kjenks 09-16-04, 05:00 PM	It seems to me that you're judging this situation wrong in two ways. First of all, the Alter Self spell doesn't allow a humanoid to sprout wings. There are no humanoids in the Monster Manual that have wings. So unless you're allowing the PC to change into some off-book creature or the PC is some non-humanoid race, he can't use Alter Self to fly. Second, a flying creature can't get a full attack while flying unless it can hover. So this character would be limited to one arrow per round -- or Multishot. This isn't too scary in most situations. Alter Self Transmutation Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 10 min./level (D) You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself. You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack). You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels. If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components. You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth. You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype. You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check. When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.
Hypersmurf 09-16-04, 07:00 PM	First of all, the Alter Self spell doesn't allow a humanoid to sprout wings. Probably playing 3E. "If the form selected has wings, the character can fly at a speed of 30 feet with poor maneuverability." -Hyp.
kjenks 09-16-04, 07:15 PM	Probably playing 3E. Okay, make that three ways.
Egres 09-16-04, 08:38 PM	The player in question has been using a bow to fire arrows. My question is along the lines of if you need a minimum forward speed to move, what happens when someone hits you with a greataxe, or a club. Sort of like swating a fly. Would they fall to the ground after being hit, their forward momentum would be affected. Then this means that i have intepreted your original post in the right way. And then i repeat...why should they? There are no rules in D&D concerning this. And you should accept it in a game where you can fall from an altitude of 15,000 feet and survive without many problems if you are a 10th level Barbarian,for example.
Kruxx06 09-16-04, 09:27 PM	First of all, the Alter Self spell doesn't allow a humanoid to sprout wings. There are no humanoids in the Monster Manual that have wings. So unless you're allowing the PC to change into some off-book creature or the PC is some non-humanoid race, he can't use Alter Self to fly. If you choose the form of a Celestial being (Angelic), you can have wings. (even in 3.5 if you read that spell description, although your manverability isn't as penalized as it is in 3.0 -- which we are playing in). It just seems odd that there arn't rules for that, if you take a good hit while flying, it doesn't knock you to the ground.
kjenks 09-16-04, 09:32 PM	Yes, there are rules for all of this. See the DMG rules for flying and moving in three dimensions. Assuming you have a flying archer who can't hover (Average, Poor or Clumsy maneuverability, without the Hover feat), the archer must maintain a minimum forward speed of half his flying movement rate. This always means that the flying archer must move at least 10 ft., usually further. If you take more than a 5 ft. step, you can't make a full attack; you're limited to your movement and one standard action during the round. In this case, the archer would use his standard action to make a single ranged attack. If the flying archer has the Manyshot feat, he can use that as his standard action and still maintain his minimum forward speed. If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement. If it is too high above the ground to land, it falls straight down, descending 150 feet in the first round of falling. If this distance brings it to the ground, it takes falling damage. If the fall doesn’t bring the creature to the ground, it must spend its next turn recovering from the stall. It must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it takes falling damage. Otherwise, it has another chance to recover on its next turn. For an example, check your Monster Manual for the Harpy Archer, whose movement is listed as "20 ft. (4 squares), fly 80 ft. (average)." These ladies have the Manyshot feat. With a +1 frost bow (Mighty +1), +2 arrows and Bracers of Archery (Lesser), they can do a bit of damage with that Manyshot.
Hypersmurf 09-16-04, 09:36 PM	If you choose the form of a Celestial being (Angelic), you can have wings. Alter Self can only change forms within your own type. Unless your type is already Outsider, you can't become a Celestial. -Hyp.
Shadowfax7 09-16-04, 10:21 PM	Couldn't it be a campaign where Aaracroka (sp) exist ?? I believe they are winged humanoids in FR.
BigNastyMP 09-16-04, 10:26 PM	Our wise Sage, Mr. Skip Williams, has procured some rules regarding flight and combat. Check out the Rules of the Game section of this very website for information on minimum fly speeds, stalling, and other fun flying facts.