Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nicholas the Paladin 10-06-05, 03:06 AM	Hi Guys, I've been lurking around on these boards for about a year now. I got the feeling that others somehow are more succesfull then our party at positioning the fightertypes as buffers, so that the weaker PC can last some more rounds. It seems that the fightertypes in our group start buffering in the beginning, but after two or more rounds have to protect the other PC's from dying..... because the bad-guys walk around it and hack away. This has been unbalancing. - we frequently fight larger party groups (same or more numbers) - we rotate the DM role and I have no reason to believe that one DM is smarter than the other. Am I missing something or are you doing just as badly? ;) for clarity; our group (lvl 5): buffers: - fighter/priest - paladin weaker: - druid - sorceror - rogue - archer ranger
Jaid 10-06-05, 11:53 AM	well, first off, the druid has wild shape now, so even if his natural physical attributes suck horribly, he is now at least reasonably tough. and your ranger is probably at least decent in melee as well, at least in terms of toughness. however, what you should really look into is having the other team-members (especially the spellcasters, who tend to need the protection more) assist in battlefield control. for example, a well placed grease spell can cover a flank pretty nicely. entangle can make people want to cry. spike growth or spike stones can perform similar functions. later on, walls and such will help too. also, if you are using your fighter types as protection, consider having them use reach weapons, and use the AoOs to trip, disarm, etc. the enemy will generally not be as much of a problem on your flank if they have no weapons, for example, and if you trip them then their movement stops. hope that helps.
Tony Vargas 10-06-05, 12:20 PM	What you're talking about is highly situational, so you have to assess each combat as it begins and develops, and act boldly to gain any tactical advantage. If the battlefield is not completely open - if you're underground or there are buildings, trees, rough ground, or hazards, cover, or whatever - you should position yourselves so that your more vulnerable party members can't be aproached without going through, or at least past, the 'fighter wall.' Most enemies should be warry of provoking AoOs. That means a regular melee type should be able to at least slow the progress of the enemy along a 15' front (enemies can't easily pass through his 5' square, and provoke if they go 'around' him at more than a 5'-step-round). With a reach weapon, that becomes 25'. If you're mounted, you figure your reach from your mounts 10'x10' square, so that's a 20' 'front,' 30' with reach (a mounted paladin, for instance). Being Enlarged also boosts - doubles, in fact - your reach and area, giving you a 30' 'front,' 50' with a reach weapon. In the open, you can use magic to create barrriers or deterents to movement of sorts - web or entanglment, for instance, will stop or slow enemies in a largish area - but you'll probably need to tap any second-string melee ability, like the druid in wildshape, his animal companion, or your ranger. You can also try to make greater use of your own mobility. The fighters can move to engage the enemy, and the party can then fall back each round. You can even adopt skirmish tactics if your movement is good compared to the enemy's (and with mounts, even heavy armor types can be fairly mobile out in the open). However, you can't just adopt one strategy and stick with it, you need to tailor your tactics to the enemy and the situation.
tarkin 10-06-05, 01:05 PM	Also, things like a fighter with reach can be very effective at blocking people. And fighters should start in position so that if someone attempts to attack the 'rear guard' players, the fighters can move into position and flank them.
Nicholas the Paladin 10-06-05, 02:20 PM	What you're talking about is highly situational, so you have to assess each combat as it begins and develops, and act boldly to gain any tactical advantage. I get that. When I asked the questoin I realised that it is very situational. Looking back, I think I can say that most of our encounters happen in a reasonabel open space. It's a style we developped over the years. There's mostly variance in terms of opponents and probably the different kind of ground (which can limit movement). The druid probably needs to learn that when wildshaped, he can be more of e threat then when he couldn't: he was mostly extra spellcasting and healing. The ranger can hold his own for a while, but he quickly gets into trouble. He's great at range, but when opponent reach him, the fun stops. Our rogue is of course the greatest threat when sneack attacking. The problem is; two hits and she's down: low AC, low HP's. Maybe we are on a point of change as a group. We kind of realise that unless we work tactically as a group, we won't last. I already adressed this, but it's kinda hard to get it in our system.......when you're used to being a butt-kick group, that fought like a bunch of individuals...this can be a change (we're experienced 2nd edition players, with usually more than above average abilities and that focussed on roleplaying). Apparently, something has changed in 3rd edition :D Thanks guys !
q'afuu 10-06-05, 02:40 PM	Aside from the above comments, I think the biggest issue for your party is the number of buffers vs. the number of characters that have to be protected by them. It's pretty hard for two characters to shield four others, unless the terrain really helps them out. If you compare with the iconic fighter-cleric-rogue-wizard party, you see two buffers (the fighter and the cleric) who have to look after two others, one of which can probably afford to be hit a couple of times (the rogue). That's a lot easier.
Tony Vargas 10-06-05, 03:15 PM	Looking back, I think I can say that most of our encounters happen in a reasonabel open space. It's a style we developped over the years. There's mostly variance in terms of opponents and probably the different kind of ground (which can limit movement). Then, I think you'll need to get more of the PCs to work effectively on the front lines, or in a second-string frontliner capacity. Oddly enough, because the ranger is an archer, and the rogue's best contribution is probably SA, I'd say that should be the Druid and the Rogue... with the ranger, and (obviously) sorcerer, hanging back the longest. The druid probably needs to learn that when wildshaped, he can be more of e threat then when he couldn't: he was mostly extra spellcasting and healing.If he can get natural spell, he can be wildshaped much of the time. Even without it, he can use a strong animal form to be a creadible threat. Once he can do large animals, he can assume a bear form with Improved Grab, which'll make a big difference in keeping enemies from closing with the ranged types. A grappled enemy loses it's dex bonus to foes outside the grapple, so there's an opportunity for the Rogue to make SAs, too. The ranger can hold his own for a while, but he quickly gets into trouble. He's great at range, but when opponent reach him, the fun stops.Then he should stay at range as much as possible, right by the sorcerer. When they're finally overrun, he can switch to melee as a last attempt to 'block' for the (presumably very vulnerable) archanist, and the rogue should move to flank. Our rogue is of course the greatest threat when sneack attacking. The problem is; two hits and she's down: low AC, low HP's. Some problems you just have to throw resources at, and, given your general situation, this may be one of 'em. Via spells/potions (Bear's endurance, Shield of Faith, Barkskin, etc) or items (CON booster, Armor upgrades, etc), gett her AC & hps up to a more surviveable level. She still shouldn't be on the 'front line,' but, with the Druid, she should be on the second line (or flank, fighting in the round). Once enemies get around the two frontliners, they should find themselves facing the rogue and druid, who should either flank, or stand thier ground as the frontliners fall back to flank. If the rogue is the TWF sort, she should try to just take a 5' step (delaying if needed), while someone else takes the move action to flank, otherwise, she should get a magic buckler (no ACP, and she needs the AC) and tumble away after SA'ing. Enemies that are likely to go after the foe who hurt them most could thus be drawn away from the sorcerer and archer be a viscious sneak attack or bear-mauling. Apparently, something has changed in 3rd edition It has, indeed. Monsters do more damage, combat is more complex, and fighter-types have more options. It makes combat more interesting, but good tactics more critical.
Cathon 10-06-05, 07:31 PM	One thing that didn't get mentionned for crowd control is summons. The druid can do spontaneous summons, and if you are being outnumbered by your foes, they are probably generally weaker and will take longer to deal with summoned creatures. Wolves are particularly good at crowd control with their tripping ability. Summons can also help your rogue flank. The rogue can also help with crowd control with a few alchemical items. Bonus if she can make them sneak attackable while doing it. If the sorceror doesn't have good crowd control spells he should start investing in scrolls and wands to improve his versatility. Large numbers of lower level creatures should be bread and butter to an arcane caster in any case. Some guys are going to make it back there, so your weaker characters need to be prepared to handle it when they do. Your ranger and druid should be prepared to melee, your rogue to flank and melee, and your sorceror to improve his defences and maybe throw in a few touch spells.
Nicholas the Paladin 10-07-05, 03:09 AM	One thing that didn't get mentionned for crowd control is summons. The druid can do spontaneous summons, and if you are being outnumbered by your foes, they are probably generally weaker and will take longer to deal with summoned creatures. Wolves are particularly good at crowd control with their tripping ability. Summons can also help your rogue flank. Our druid uses wolves once in a while and they've proven to be effective. The rogue can also help with crowd control with a few alchemical items. Bonus if she can make them sneak attackable while doing it.. 'Fancy' stuff like alchemical potions are rare in our group. I think our style is pretty 'conservative' since we're 2nd edition players: Not many magical items and non-core items are eyed with some carefullness. If the sorceror doesn't have good crowd control spells he should start investing in scrolls and wands to improve his versatility. Large numbers of lower level creatures should be bread and butter to an arcane caster in any case. We already adressed this with our sorceror. His first array of spells contained mostly direct offensive power (he might not have the greatest imagination) He recently gained 2nd level spells, but most were invested in personal protection like 'mirror image.' (which is good too of course) Some guys are going to make it back there, so your weaker characters need to be prepared to handle it when they do. Your ranger and druid should be prepared to melee, your rogue to flank and melee, and your sorceror to improve his defences and maybe throw in a few touch spells. We dabbled with the idea of forming duo's more, so that we can protect each other and gain flanking. The thing that sometime holds us back, is the thought that when we're clustered, we're more vulnerable to Area-effect spells. Guess we're still getting used to 3.xrd edition. We have a small amount of magical items, need to think more tactically and as a team. Buffs: Another thing we adressed recently is the use of spell-buffs in combat....as in ... we get attacked and have one or no round to respond (the DM's can be vicious)what should we do: cast a buff or move into position and attack to block the attackers. This is espacially a question for the fighter/priest. (if we have the luxery of preparation, this does not apply ofcourse). This usually means that the Dwarven fighter/priest uses buffs and in the meantime the human paladin gets whacked (the paladin goes down almost every encounter). Or, the fighter/priest goes straight into battle and doesn't use any of his spells....which makes him wonder, why choose to be a priest in the first place.
JadeSpider9643 10-07-05, 04:51 AM	In your case, (your case being fewer "meat shields" than gooey-centered twinkies, and combat in large open areas) your melee types should consider a more direct approach on crowd control. Instead of controlling WHERE the enemy can go, control IF they can go. Translation: Trip and grapple more.
Tony Vargas 10-07-05, 01:41 PM	We dabbled with the idea of forming duo's more, so that we can protect each other and gain flanking. The thing that sometime holds us back, is the thought that when we're clustered, we're more vulnerable to Area-effect spells. You can do both: just split the duos up a bit. Have 20' or so between the frontliners, the second-stringers and the back (if you're being aproached from one direction, that is). Or form the 'duos' only after the enemy has closed. we get attacked and have one or no round to respond (the DM's can be vicious)what should we do: cast a buff or move into position and attack to block the attackers. Cast a single buff spell, and move to threaten or block an enemy. You can cast a standard-action spell, then take a move action. Or, if the initiatives work out, the priest could buff & move, but not acutally engage, the fighter drink a potion and move but not engage, and the other characters could make ranged attacks and fall back. Net effect, if you can do most of it before the enemy reaches you, is the same as the frontliners advancing. On a related note, both your frontliners can, and probably should, heal themselves (or eachother, if one's taking all the damage) in combat. The Cleric should have enough Concentration to cast on the defensive, and, IIRC, Lay on Hands doesn't provoke.
q'afuu 10-07-05, 02:22 PM	... IIRC, Lay on Hands doesn't provoke. Unfortunately, that's not entirely clear. LoH is a Su ability, and those generally don't provoke AoOs. However, the text for the LoH ability appears to suggest (note that it's a vague implication at best) using it to heal someone does provoke, by specifying that using it to attack undead does not ("Using LoH this way... does not provoke an AoO). It's not exactly damning evidence, but still. Personally, I think using LoH to heal (certainly to heal someone else) should provoke, so I rule it does. YMMV.
Plothos 10-07-05, 02:44 PM	If your party is set up with 2 frontliners and 4 rearguard actors, then your frontliners are going to have to accept some restrictions on their role. Straight fighter types might consider grabbing reach weapons, or even dropping a feat into exotic proficiency to get the spiked chain. Combat reflexes is probably a must, and things like whirlwind attack and mobility can help a lot in terms of keeping between the enemy and the softies. Something like spring attack (a prereq for whirlwind anyway) can help you move to intercept a baddy and move again to a more helpful position after the first guy has been dropped. Mobility will help you survive all that movement, even if you don't have much tumble. Using a chain, whirlwind/combat reflexes, and improved trip, can result in swaths of enemies using their moves just to get up (and get attacked again in the meantime), but you'd better be strong and maybe have a spare chain around in case you have to drop the first one. :) Likewise, the guys in back are going to have to accept the fact that they're going to face enemies head on here and there. The ranger could bite the bullet and take a fighter level for the armor proficiency. This would greatly improve his fighting effectiveness. If he's fighting ranged, he doesn't have to move much either. He could go full plate and buckler, really. Also bear in mind that defense is cheaper than offense. A +2 sword is 8000 gp. Drop it to a +1, and you can get a +1 to your buckler, +1 to your chain shirt, plus a ring of protection, an amulet of natural armor, for a total of +4 to your AC. The guys in back (and up front, especially if they ditch a shield for a 2-handed weapon for reach reasons), may want to consider investing in defense, because they're really not all that much in back, if there isn't that much of a front to begin with.
wizkid 10-08-05, 10:57 AM	Heres a tatic I think could work if space permits. The fighter and the palydin both grab a reach weapon and place themselves so that they have 5-10-feet in between them. Have them both take the combat reflexes feat so they can make more AoOs. have them make readied actions to attack an enemy as soon they take an action aginst the other. In theory this should work. Any flaws will probbaly be pointed out immetitly due to me never acctully having a chance to test this tactic. I like to call it the meat grinder tactic.
Nicholas the Paladin 10-10-05, 02:53 AM	About a smaller problem that we had some discussions about: Buffs: Another thing we adressed recently is the use of spell-buffs in combat....as in ... we get attacked and have one or no round to respond (the DM's can be vicious)what should we do: cast a buff or move into position and attack to block the attackers. This is espacially a question for the fighter/priest. (if we have the luxery of preparation, this does not apply ofcourse). This usually means that the Dwarven fighter/priest uses buffs and in the meantime the human paladin gets whacked (the paladin goes down almost every encounter). Or, the fighter/priest goes straight into battle and doesn't use any of his spells....which makes him wonder, why choose to be a priest in the first place. How do you deal with Buffs and the limited time there usually is? THis can be at the beginning of combat (with one round or no reaction time) or *during* combat. How do you deal with it? (Or a more concrete question: which priestly buffs do you consider worth wasting a combat round for?).
Jaid 10-10-05, 01:19 PM	that depends on how long your combats are. if you typically have 3 round long fights, then 1 round is too much time to spend buffing. use buffs only before fights begin. if, on the other hand, a fight is going to last 8 or 9 rounds, you might consider still spending some time buffing. it's up to you. personally, i would tend to look for two types of spells: 1) fire and forget. cast it in the morning, and ignore it for the rest of the day. 2) free to use. ie, they take a swift action. for other spells, you can always have some offensive stuff. even the default cleric has some offensive magic, such as summon monster spells, spiritual weapon, etc. there is more in the cleric's spell list than just buffing spells, remember.
ninja1 10-10-05, 01:40 PM	I'm with the crowd that points to the low Frontline to Rearline ratio. As q'afuu points out, the standard party sterotyped has a one to one ratio. I would take it one step further and suggest a two Frontline to one Rearline ratio. That would offer plenty of flexibility in avoiding flankers. It would also improve your chances at flanking fewer enemies. Also, in tight situations, some of those Frontline can provide Rearline type support with ranged or reach weapons. As your party is 5th level, might I suggest a few of them considering Leadership with a big burly bodyguard for a Cohort? (EDIT: I meant to write "when they level up next")
Iver Gearsham 10-10-05, 02:53 PM	4 lbs. caltrops in a hard leather tube = 5 ft. by 10 ft. barrier cheap and quick. One tube for every party member. Tanglefoot Bags Ranged touch attack almost auto hits on burly fighter types makes outmaneuvering them easy and can leave them helpless against SA. Sor could make them for 1/3 the Market price if you have time. The Druid has few potted plants that can be carried and thrown for when your fighting in barren areas. Look at Shrink Item threads for battlefield control tools and tactics lots for fun and useful things but there are alot lot of wacky ideas too First Shrink Items do not expand in wounds nor can you hit them directly with insta boulders unless your Dm wants to do that to you as well :evillaugh . Launch Item 1st level spell from FR lets you use tanglefoot bags at long range and you have a chance of taking out medium size and smaller fliers.
Nicholas the Paladin 10-13-05, 08:25 AM	How do you deal with Buffs and the limited time there usually is? THis can be at the beginning of combat (with one round or no reaction time) or *during* combat. How do you deal with it? (Or a more concrete question: which priestly buffs do you consider worth wasting a combat round for?). any ideas? for: - fighter/priest - druid
White_Wizard 10-13-05, 11:02 AM	Being also a fighter your priest is not in the best position to be more than a backup caster: he is very useful in a fight, so he won't have that much freedom of casting of a full priest. If you have few time to cast spells, think what could bring benefit to the whole party (bless spell for example), rather than casting a spell with single target. Your other warrior in the group surely can hold on for a round, especially if this brings a bonus to further combat rounds. The druid, on the other side, should provide most healing and reinforcing spells. I would suggest the use of wild shape only in case of need (at least for now, since he has limited access to that udeful class benefit). He can also prove useful for battleground control (he has several spells that block, distract or set fire on flammable objects). Your rogue should spend most of combat time hidden (think about the use of bluff to hide when under direct sight) and seeking the right moment to stab the enemy: the reason of the sneak attack's awesome damage is that the rogue cannot use it as often as a fighter can swing his sword. Remember that it's a powerful tool, often proving to be resolutive, but it must be used with care. The right blow, in the right place, at the right moment. A ranged oriented ranger should climb every time a fight starts. If you are in a forest think about having your ranger to travel from tree to tree (usually it's only a short amount of delay during a travel). For ranged oriented PCs position is what makes the difference: in the first stance they are out of most humanoid enemies' reach. And, besides, they gain a better view of the battlefield (thus gaining the opportunity to attack enemies positioned beyond their fellows without the penalty associated with characters covering other characters). The sorcerer should have some levitate or fly spell ready for the use. If he hasn't them in it's repertory, seek every chance to buy a wand or every potion and/or scroll with those very useful spells. Rmember that he has probably the most chances to get a good control of the battlefield: even if he lacks of spells like web or similar, he can make a creative use of other spells like burning hands which can set on fire flammable objects (an average bush on fire blocks a 5 foot square and burning hands can set on fire up to a 10 foot area). Try to use charm spells (and other enchantment spells) to confuse the enemy: even if a charmed orc would not fight his own brethren, at least he is out of the fight. Summoning spells are most useful, but since your druid has spontaneous summoning, the sorcerer can focus on other areas of magic. Animate rope can hold off a single enemy just enough to deal with his fellows. Door blocking spells are very good in dungeons. When your sorcerer reachs 6th level and gains access to 3rd level spells think about deep slumber, which affects a large number of HDs or stinking cloud which is area-based, flame arrow could help the ranger a lot. slow spell is also very effective and much more than the 3.0 version since it now affects multiple targets. The same goes for haste .
Nicholas the Paladin 10-15-05, 04:58 AM	If you have few time to cast spells, think what could bring benefit to the whole party (bless spell for example), rather than casting a spell with single target. Your other warrior in the group surely can hold on for a round, especially if this brings a bonus to further combat rounds.. good point The druid, on the other side, should provide most healing and reinforcing spells. I would suggest the use of wild shape only in case of need (at least for now, since he has limited access to that udeful class benefit). He can also prove useful for battleground control (he has several spells that block, distract or set fire on flammable objects).. I started to like the idea that our group could use the druid as a 3rd fighter. Wild shape is not thát spectacular at the moment (medium creatures), but it's way better then what he had to begin with. when looking at his spells list: 1st entangle: great for battelfield controll, not always usable magic fang: nice for hte druid and his companion summon ally: great 2nd barkskin: nice when joining the fight bears/ bulls- buffs: nice when joining the fight fog cloud: I am not all that convinced aboutt this spell heat metal: = attacks soften earth: maybe usefull for battlefield control (weak) summon ally: great 3rd: call lightening: seems nice, but it requires a standard action to do 3d6 damage...not thát spectacular....coudl this be combined while attacking in Wild Shape? as in; give up one attack and recieve a ''lightening strike' in return? prot fr energy: could be nice against specific creatures/attacks sleet storm: good for battlefield controll spike growth: good for battlefield controll summon ally: great .... it is tempting to think that buffing-up and fighting while in Wildshape is very good alternative PLease correct me if I'm wrong Your rogue should spend most of combat time hidden (think about the use of bluff to hide when under direct sight) and seeking the right moment to stab the enemy: the reason of the sneak attack's awesome damage is that the rogue cannot use it as often as a fighter can swing his sword. Remember that it's a powerful tool, often proving to be resolutive, but it must be used with care. The right blow, in the right place, at the right moment.. THis is where things get difficult for the rogue. Many of our fights are in open spaces outside or in larger rooms in dungeons. ... I seems as if the rogue doesn't have that many options to sneak around. bluff to hide when under direct sight: I've never heard about this. A ranged oriented ranger should climb every time a fight starts. If you are in a forest think about having your ranger to travel from tree to tree (usually it's only a short amount of delay during a travel). For ranged oriented PCs position is what makes the difference: in the first stance they are out of most humanoid enemies' reach. And, besides, they gain a better view of the battlefield (thus gaining the opportunity to attack enemies positioned beyond their fellows without the penalty associated with characters covering other characters)..good point The sorcerer should have some levitate or fly spell ready for the use. If he hasn't them in it's repertory, seek every chance to buy a wand or every potion and/or scroll with those very useful spells. Rmember that he has probably the most chances to get a good control of the battlefield: even if he lacks of spells like web or similar, he can make a creative use of other spells like burning hands which can set on fire flammable objects (an average bush on fire blocks a 5 foot square and burning hands can set on fire up to a 10 foot area). Try to use charm spells (and other enchantment spells) to confuse the enemy: even if a charmed orc would not fight his own brethren, at least he is out of the fight. Summoning spells are most useful, but since your druid has spontaneous summoning, the sorcerer can focus on other areas of magic. Animate rope can hold off a single enemy just enough to deal with his fellows. Door blocking spells are very good in dungeons. When your sorcerer reachs 6th level and gains access to 3rd level spells think about deep slumber, which affects a large number of HDs or stinking cloud which is area-based, flame arrow could help the ranger a lot. slow spell is also very effective and much more than the 3.0 version since it now affects multiple targets. The same goes for haste . all good points. I like the idea, that the sorceror should buy a scroll /potion/ wand that could tactically come in handy once in a while
White_Wizard 10-15-05, 08:26 AM	THis is where things get difficult for the rogue. Many of our fights are in open spaces outside or in larger rooms in dungeons. ... I seems as if the rogue doesn't have that many options to sneak around. that could be a good use for the fog cloud spell, which could cover the rogue enough to allow hiding and sneak attacks. bluff to hide when under direct sight: I've never heard about this. That's an application of the Bluff skill listed in PHB: Bluff vs Sense Motive, it does not provoke any AoO and distracts people watching at the character enough to let him use his Hide skill. Normally, in fact, Hide skill cannot be used under direct sight.
Nicholas the Paladin 10-15-05, 08:37 AM	that could be a good use for the fog cloud spell, which could cover the rogue enough to allow hiding and sneak attacks. That's an application of the Bluff skill listed in PHB: Bluff vs Sense Motive, it does not provoke any AoO and distracts people watching at the character enough to let him use his Hide skill. Normally, in fact, Hide skill cannot be used under direct sight. I can see that a fogcloud combined with regulare use of the Bluff-skill to get away after sneak-attacking, could be a devastating combo for the Rogue. The thing is...what wil this mean for the rest of the party?...since it mostly favours rogues and maybe a spellcaster. The rest is just running around, bumping into each other. :D
White_Wizard 10-15-05, 08:57 AM	Yup! That's funny anyway! The spell is 20 ft radius wide and 20 ft high. I just assumed that there is enough space to place it on one side of the battlefield, leaving room to other fighters. If that's not the case try the sorcerer's resources (what is his spell list?). Invisibility and darkness provide very similar benefits (and the second one is also much more compact in it's dimensions, so that it can be placed in nearly every battlefield without having all of the party blinded and bouncing all around). Darkness is also avaliable as a 2nd level cleric spell. That would distract the cleric from the fight, but it may be worth it. If it is not avaliable to your cleric, try scrolls and wands (divine are more expendable than arcane since a wizard could want to keep them for further book-adding, but a divine spellcaster does not falls in such needs - nor does a sorcerer anyway, so your party's scrolls are perfectly expendable with no remorses).
Beppo 10-15-05, 10:48 AM	You can consider also something tricky about all the spells of the fog family. While fighting against more dull combatants you can also buy yourself time with bluffing. For instance, you get jumped by a gang of goblins and orcs. For most of them the average spell should be a mediocre wonder if it's colorful enough. Now think of the sorcerer casting fog cloud and the rogue whispering frantically "Oh no, the life draining cloud of XXX, you sure it's not gonna kill us all?" or maybe bluffing them by choking, crying and finally feigning death dramatically.
Nephlite 10-15-05, 12:27 PM	good point I started to like the idea that our group could use the druid as a 3rd fighter. Wild shape is not thát spectacular at the moment (medium creatures), but Stop right there: Wild Shape is great starting at level 5. Though limited to 1/day. Look at a brown bear or Crocodile lately? BEAR, BLACK Medium Animal Hit Dice: 3d8+6 (19 hp) Initiative: +1 Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares) Armor Class: 13 (+1 Dex, +2 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 12 Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+6 Attack: Claw +6 melee (1d4+4) Full Attack: 2 claws +6 melee (1d4+4) and bite +1 melee (1d6+2) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent Saves: Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +2 Abilities: Str 19, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6 Skills: Climb +4, Listen +4, Spot +4, Swim +8 Feats: Endurance, Run Environment: Temperate forests Organization: Solitary or pair Challenge Rating: 2 Advancement: 4–5 HD (Medium) Level Adjustment: — The black bear is a forest-dwelling omnivore that usually is not dangerous unless an interloper threatens its cubs or food supply. Black bears can be pure black, blond, or cinnamon in color and are rarely more than 5 feet long. Combat Black bears rip prey with their claws and teeth. Skills: A black bear has a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks. Str 19, Dex 13, Con 15 for Druid is nice: AC okay: 13 (+1 Dex, +2 natural). Boars have better AC but lower Strength: NA +6. Crocs are nice: CROCODILE Medium Animal Hit Dice: 3d8+9 (22 hp) Initiative: +1 Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 30 ft. Armor Class: 15 (+1 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 14 Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+6 Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d8+6) or tail slap +6 melee (1d12+6) Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d8+6) or tail slap +6 melee (1d12+6) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Improved grab Special Qualities: Hold breath, low-light vision Saves: Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +2 Abilities: Str 19, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2 Skills: Hide +7*, Listen +4, Spot +4, Swim +12 Feats: Alertness, Skill Focus (Hide) Environment: Warm marshes Organization: Solitary or colony (6–11) Challenge Rating: 2 Advancement: 4–5 HD (Medium) Level Adjustment: — Crocodiles are aggressive predators 11 to 12 feet long. They lie mostly submerged in rivers or marshes, with only their eyes and nostrils showing, waiting for prey to come within reach. Combat Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a crocodile must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, the crocodile establishes a hold on the opponent with its mouth and drags it into deep water, attempting to pin it to the bottom. Hold Breath (Ex): A crocodile can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 4 x its Constitution score before it risks drowning. Skills: A crocodile has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line. *A crocodile gains a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks when in the water. Further, a crocodile can lie in the water with only its eyes and nostrils showing, gaining a +10 cover bonus on Hide checks. Slower than Bears but better.
Nicholas the Paladin 10-15-05, 12:27 PM	You can consider also something tricky about all the spells of the fog family. While fighting against more dull combatants you can also buy yourself time with bluffing. For instance, you get jumped by a gang of goblins and orcs. For most of them the average spell should be a mediocre wonder if it's colorful enough. Now think of the sorcerer casting fog cloud and the rogue whispering frantically "Oh no, the life draining cloud of XXX, you sure it's not gonna kill us all?" or maybe bluffing them by choking, crying and finally feigning death dramatically. ahaaaaa, creativity, bluff, drama, ....I like it and will convey this to my friends. ;)
ninja1 10-15-05, 05:09 PM	I like the idea, that the sorceror should buy a scroll /potion/ wand that could tactically come in handy once in a while Might I recommend approaching the group with this, except suggesting that the party buy it out of the communal fund (before splitting it up amongst the party)? It might go over better :) Me to cleric: I think you should buy several True Resurrection scrolls... just in case. :D