Combat: Bite Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Combat: Bite Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Alchemistmerlin
06-23-05, 05:09 AM With Psionics it is possible to give your character a bite attack. (Bite of Wolf is the power). In the description it says that, in order to be used in addition to other attacks, it acts as a secondary attack.

I thought, at first, that this was done in the same fashion as fighting with two weapons. However, does that mean my teeth are in my "off hand"? And are my teeth light weapons?

Honestly what kind of penalty am I looking at here, because I won't even take the power if it's going to be -10 as it appears...

Note: I attempted to look this up myself but unfortunately my Players Manual is unavailable too me, and I can't find it in any of my other books.
Ranix
06-23-05, 05:52 AM The info isn't in the player's guide. You should search the site for the SRD to answer real in-depth questions like that.

Anyway, the bite will always be used at your full attack bonus -5. You cannot make iterative attacks from having a high base attack bonus with your bite attack, and the bite takes the -5 penalty even if it's the only attack you make in the round.
Alchemistmerlin
06-23-05, 05:56 AM The info isn't in the player's guide. You should search the site for the SRD to answer real in-depth questions like that.

Anyway, the bite will always be used at your full attack bonus -5. You cannot make iterative attacks from having a high base attack bonus with your bite attack, and the bite takes the -5 penalty even if it's the only attack you make in the round.
That's odd, the power description makes no mention of a penalty when using bite being your only attack :confused:

As stated in the SRD
Your bite attack is a natural weapon, so you are considered armed when attacking with it, and it can be affected by powers, spells, and effects that enhance or improve natural weapons. You can choose to deal nonlethal damage with your bite, taking the standard –4 penalty on your attack roll. If you bite as your only attack, you use your highest base attack bonus on the attack roll, and you can apply your full Strength bonus to damage. If you bite in addition to making other attacks, the bite is a secondary attack.
Greyman
06-23-05, 06:35 AM With Psionics it is possible to give your character a bite attack. (Bite of Wolf is the power). In the description it says that, in order to be used in addition to other attacks, it acts as a secondary attack.

I thought, at first, that this was done in the same fashion as fighting with two weapons. However, does that mean my teeth are in my "off hand"? And are my teeth light weapons?

Honestly what kind of penalty am I looking at here, because I won't even take the power if it's going to be -10 as it appears...Take heart. The penalty is nowhere near as high. Indeed, gaining a bite attack is wholely beneficial to any melee character.

Firstly, a natural attack is considered a light weapon for most effects, so you can use it in a grapple. However, despite this it gains a bonus to damage when you use Power Attack, as it is one of the explicit exceptions. Another exception is that a natural weapon, when used as a primary attack, gains you full strength bonus to damage (that's 1.5 times strength if it's a single primary attack, such as bite, or 1 times if you have multiple primary natural attacks, such as 2 claws).

Secondly, when used in conjunction with a manufactured weapon, your bite is not an "off hand" attack and two weapon fighting penalties do not apply. It becomes a secondary natural attack made in addition to all normal manufactured weapon attacks. This means that the manufactured weapon has no penalty to attack, and the bite is made at -5 to attack, adding only 1/2 of your strength bonus to the damage rolled.

Note that it is an additional attack. You can even use your bite while attacking with a manufactured weapons in each hand. When you do so, two weapon fighting penalties apply to all attacks per round, including the bite, but using the bite does not increase these penalties beyond the normal.

Note: I attempted to look this up myself but unfortunately my Players Manual is unavailable too me, and I can't find it in any of my other books.The relevant information is to be found in the Monster Manual, and is repeated in the Bite of the Wolf power description in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. You can also find it in the System Reference Document.That's odd, the power description makes no mention of a penalty when using bite being your only attack :confused:

As stated in the SRD
Your bite attack is a natural weapon, so you are considered armed when attacking with it, and it can be affected by powers, spells, and effects that enhance or improve natural weapons. You can choose to deal nonlethal damage with your bite, taking the standard –4 penalty on your attack roll. If you bite as your only attack, you use your highest base attack bonus on the attack roll, and you can apply your full Strength bonus to damage. If you bite in addition to making other attacks, the bite is a secondary attack.Ah, you found the SRD entry already. Then you know to ignore Ranix's answer.

Happy hunting.
Alchemistmerlin
06-23-05, 07:03 AM Thank you very much, you've been of great help.
Nom
06-23-05, 07:44 AM When you do so, two weapon fighting penalties apply to all attacks per round, including the bite, but using the bite does not increase these penalties beyond the normal.Are you sure about this? TWF (PH pg 169) specifies a "penalty to your regular attack or attacks made with your primary hand". Secondary natural attacks don't fall into this category, so would not be penalised.
Greyman
06-23-05, 08:58 AM Are you sure about this? TWF (PH pg 169) specifies a "penalty to your regular attack or attacks made with your primary hand". Secondary natural attacks don't fall into this category, so would not be penalised.:uh-huh:
Good point. Let me check on that.

:bigeyes:
You appear to be correct. To confirm it we need an example. Let's find a monster that uses a natural weapon as two manufactured weapons... A... Angels... Archons... Armordillo... Athach!

:eek:
An athach has a BAB of +10, Huge Size (-2), and Strength of 26 (+8), which gives an attack bonus of +16.

Multiweapon Fighting with three one-handed weapons (morningstars), one in each hand, should give a penalty of -4 to attack for each one. Weapon Focus (Bite) will provide a +1 bonus to attack for the bite, that should be added to the -5 penalty for being a secondary weapon, and any others that apply when the atach uses it in conjunction with the morningstars.

The Athach's actual full attack routine is: Morningstar +12/+7 melee (3d6+8), and 2 morningstars +12 melee (3d6+4), and bite +12 melee (2d8+4 plus poison). The Power Attack feat does not appear to be employed by an athach as a default, since the damage is consistant with a +8 bonus from strength 26.

This means that the expected penalties for multiweapon fighting are applied to the athach's morningstars, however, only the -5 penalty and +1 bonus are applied to the bite. No other penalties seem to apply to this example.

:bow:
Nom is correct! When fighting with two, or possibly more, manufactured weapons and natural weapons, the two-weapon fighting penalties, or multi-weapon fighting penalties, are applied only to the manufactured weapons. Not only does the addition of a natural attack not increase multiple weapon fighting penalties, it is not affected by them!
Ranix
06-23-05, 02:45 PM Oh, I'm sorry. I thought the power gave you "a secondary Bite attack as a natural weapon". (Secondary natural weapons always take the -5 penalty, I do believe.)
Colmarr
06-23-05, 05:52 PM Ranix is in fact correct, if the wording of the power is as suggested by Alchemistmerlin.

In the description it says that, in order to be used in addition to other attacks, it acts as a secondary attack.

From the SRD/MM:

Manufactured Weapons: ... Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.

Natural Weapons: Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons.

...

Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a –5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a –2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity.

So, if the PC has a sword and a bite, he makes any sword attacks as normal, and then has one additional attack with the bite, at -5 to hit.

If the PC wields two weapons and a bite, he gets his normal sword attacks under the TWF rules, and then an additional bite attack at -5 to hit.

There is no way to get iterative attacks with the bite, but the Multi-attack feat will reduce the secondary attack penalty from -5 to -2 for all secondary weapons (which is very useful for half-dragons with their bite/claw/claw routine).

IIRC, there are also rules that state that secondary natural attacks add only half strength, and that primary attacks add 1.5 strength if they are the creature's only weapon (for example see the Baboon and Bison in the MM), but I can't seem to find the actual rules text in the SRD. If that is correct, the bite attack would be at half strength when the PC is attacking with another weapon, or 1.5 strength when the PC is attacking only with his bite.
Alchemistmerlin
06-23-05, 05:55 PM Except I'm fighting with 1 weapon and a shield. So is there a penalty? o.o;;
Nom
06-23-05, 07:01 PM IIRC, there are also rules that state that secondary natural attacks add only half strength, and that primary attacks add 1.5 strength if they are the creature's only weapon (for example see the Baboon and Bison in the MM), but I can't seem to find the actual rules text in the SRD. If that is correct, the bite attack would be at half strength when the PC is attacking with another weapon, or 1.5 strength when the PC is attacking only with his bite.Relevant rules are PH pg 299. A single primary weapon adds 1.5 Str (regardless of presence or absence of secondary weapons), multiple primary weapons add Str. Secondary weapons always add 0.5 Str.
Except I'm fighting with 1 weapon and a shield. So is there a penalty? o.o;;No. You have your manufactured weapon routine as normal (for whatever normal is, in this case your normal sword attack/s), and can use your bite as a secondary natural weapon in addition to your normal routine. If you had claws you couldn't use them because one is wielding the sword and the other the shield.

As usual, you need a full attack action to make more than 1 attack, regardless of source.
Alchemistmerlin
06-23-05, 07:22 PM Ok thanks, that's the answer I was hoping for.

Yay for Psychic Warrior doing too much damage :D
Colmarr
06-26-05, 05:17 PM To clarify what Nom said, there is a penalty, but it's only the normal -5 second natural weapon penalty.

To clarify, if your BAB is +3 and you have no strength bonus, your sword attack would be at +3, and your bite attack would be at a total of -2.

If your BAB is +6, your sword attacks would be +6/+1 and your bite attack would be +1.

If your BAB is +6 and your were two-weapon fighting with two shortswords and the TWF feat, your attacks would be sword +4/+4/-1 and your bite attack would be +1. (ie. the TWF penalty doesn't apply to the bite).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alchemistmerlin 06-23-05, 05:09 AM	With Psionics it is possible to give your character a bite attack. (Bite of Wolf is the power). In the description it says that, in order to be used in addition to other attacks, it acts as a secondary attack. I thought, at first, that this was done in the same fashion as fighting with two weapons. However, does that mean my teeth are in my "off hand"? And are my teeth light weapons? Honestly what kind of penalty am I looking at here, because I won't even take the power if it's going to be -10 as it appears... Note: I attempted to look this up myself but unfortunately my Players Manual is unavailable too me, and I can't find it in any of my other books.
Ranix 06-23-05, 05:52 AM	The info isn't in the player's guide. You should search the site for the SRD to answer real in-depth questions like that. Anyway, the bite will always be used at your full attack bonus -5. You cannot make iterative attacks from having a high base attack bonus with your bite attack, and the bite takes the -5 penalty even if it's the only attack you make in the round.
Alchemistmerlin 06-23-05, 05:56 AM	The info isn't in the player's guide. You should search the site for the SRD to answer real in-depth questions like that. Anyway, the bite will always be used at your full attack bonus -5. You cannot make iterative attacks from having a high base attack bonus with your bite attack, and the bite takes the -5 penalty even if it's the only attack you make in the round. That's odd, the power description makes no mention of a penalty when using bite being your only attack :confused: As stated in the SRD Your bite attack is a natural weapon, so you are considered armed when attacking with it, and it can be affected by powers, spells, and effects that enhance or improve natural weapons. You can choose to deal nonlethal damage with your bite, taking the standard –4 penalty on your attack roll. If you bite as your only attack, you use your highest base attack bonus on the attack roll, and you can apply your full Strength bonus to damage. If you bite in addition to making other attacks, the bite is a secondary attack.
Greyman 06-23-05, 06:35 AM	With Psionics it is possible to give your character a bite attack. (Bite of Wolf is the power). In the description it says that, in order to be used in addition to other attacks, it acts as a secondary attack. I thought, at first, that this was done in the same fashion as fighting with two weapons. However, does that mean my teeth are in my "off hand"? And are my teeth light weapons? Honestly what kind of penalty am I looking at here, because I won't even take the power if it's going to be -10 as it appears...Take heart. The penalty is nowhere near as high. Indeed, gaining a bite attack is wholely beneficial to any melee character. Firstly, a natural attack is considered a light weapon for most effects, so you can use it in a grapple. However, despite this it gains a bonus to damage when you use Power Attack, as it is one of the explicit exceptions. Another exception is that a natural weapon, when used as a primary attack, gains you full strength bonus to damage (that's 1.5 times strength if it's a single primary attack, such as bite, or 1 times if you have multiple primary natural attacks, such as 2 claws). Secondly, when used in conjunction with a manufactured weapon, your bite is not an "off hand" attack and two weapon fighting penalties do not apply. It becomes a secondary natural attack made in addition to all normal manufactured weapon attacks. This means that the manufactured weapon has no penalty to attack, and the bite is made at -5 to attack, adding only 1/2 of your strength bonus to the damage rolled. Note that it is an additional attack. You can even use your bite while attacking with a manufactured weapons in each hand. When you do so, two weapon fighting penalties apply to all attacks per round, including the bite, but using the bite does not increase these penalties beyond the normal. Note: I attempted to look this up myself but unfortunately my Players Manual is unavailable too me, and I can't find it in any of my other books.The relevant information is to be found in the Monster Manual, and is repeated in the Bite of the Wolf power description in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. You can also find it in the System Reference Document.That's odd, the power description makes no mention of a penalty when using bite being your only attack :confused: As stated in the SRD Your bite attack is a natural weapon, so you are considered armed when attacking with it, and it can be affected by powers, spells, and effects that enhance or improve natural weapons. You can choose to deal nonlethal damage with your bite, taking the standard –4 penalty on your attack roll. If you bite as your only attack, you use your highest base attack bonus on the attack roll, and you can apply your full Strength bonus to damage. If you bite in addition to making other attacks, the bite is a secondary attack.Ah, you found the SRD entry already. Then you know to ignore Ranix's answer. Happy hunting.
Alchemistmerlin 06-23-05, 07:03 AM	Thank you very much, you've been of great help.
Nom 06-23-05, 07:44 AM	When you do so, two weapon fighting penalties apply to all attacks per round, including the bite, but using the bite does not increase these penalties beyond the normal.Are you sure about this? TWF (PH pg 169) specifies a "penalty to your regular attack or attacks made with your primary hand". Secondary natural attacks don't fall into this category, so would not be penalised.
Greyman 06-23-05, 08:58 AM	Are you sure about this? TWF (PH pg 169) specifies a "penalty to your regular attack or attacks made with your primary hand". Secondary natural attacks don't fall into this category, so would not be penalised.:uh-huh: Good point. Let me check on that. :bigeyes: You appear to be correct. To confirm it we need an example. Let's find a monster that uses a natural weapon as two manufactured weapons... A... Angels... Archons... Armordillo... Athach! :eek: An athach has a BAB of +10, Huge Size (-2), and Strength of 26 (+8), which gives an attack bonus of +16. Multiweapon Fighting with three one-handed weapons (morningstars), one in each hand, should give a penalty of -4 to attack for each one. Weapon Focus (Bite) will provide a +1 bonus to attack for the bite, that should be added to the -5 penalty for being a secondary weapon, and any others that apply when the atach uses it in conjunction with the morningstars. The Athach's actual full attack routine is: Morningstar +12/+7 melee (3d6+8), and 2 morningstars +12 melee (3d6+4), and bite +12 melee (2d8+4 plus poison). The Power Attack feat does not appear to be employed by an athach as a default, since the damage is consistant with a +8 bonus from strength 26. This means that the expected penalties for multiweapon fighting are applied to the athach's morningstars, however, only the -5 penalty and +1 bonus are applied to the bite. No other penalties seem to apply to this example. :bow: Nom is correct! When fighting with two, or possibly more, manufactured weapons and natural weapons, the two-weapon fighting penalties, or multi-weapon fighting penalties, are applied only to the manufactured weapons. Not only does the addition of a natural attack not increase multiple weapon fighting penalties, it is not affected by them!
Ranix 06-23-05, 02:45 PM	Oh, I'm sorry. I thought the power gave you "a secondary Bite attack as a natural weapon". (Secondary natural weapons always take the -5 penalty, I do believe.)
Colmarr 06-23-05, 05:52 PM	Ranix is in fact correct, if the wording of the power is as suggested by Alchemistmerlin. In the description it says that, in order to be used in addition to other attacks, it acts as a secondary attack. From the SRD/MM: Manufactured Weapons: ... Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual –5 penalty (or –2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon. Natural Weapons: Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. ... Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a –5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a –2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity. So, if the PC has a sword and a bite, he makes any sword attacks as normal, and then has one additional attack with the bite, at -5 to hit. If the PC wields two weapons and a bite, he gets his normal sword attacks under the TWF rules, and then an additional bite attack at -5 to hit. There is no way to get iterative attacks with the bite, but the Multi-attack feat will reduce the secondary attack penalty from -5 to -2 for all secondary weapons (which is very useful for half-dragons with their bite/claw/claw routine). IIRC, there are also rules that state that secondary natural attacks add only half strength, and that primary attacks add 1.5 strength if they are the creature's only weapon (for example see the Baboon and Bison in the MM), but I can't seem to find the actual rules text in the SRD. If that is correct, the bite attack would be at half strength when the PC is attacking with another weapon, or 1.5 strength when the PC is attacking only with his bite.
Alchemistmerlin 06-23-05, 05:55 PM	Except I'm fighting with 1 weapon and a shield. So is there a penalty? o.o;;
Nom 06-23-05, 07:01 PM	IIRC, there are also rules that state that secondary natural attacks add only half strength, and that primary attacks add 1.5 strength if they are the creature's only weapon (for example see the Baboon and Bison in the MM), but I can't seem to find the actual rules text in the SRD. If that is correct, the bite attack would be at half strength when the PC is attacking with another weapon, or 1.5 strength when the PC is attacking only with his bite.Relevant rules are PH pg 299. A single primary weapon adds 1.5 Str (regardless of presence or absence of secondary weapons), multiple primary weapons add Str. Secondary weapons always add 0.5 Str. Except I'm fighting with 1 weapon and a shield. So is there a penalty? o.o;;No. You have your manufactured weapon routine as normal (for whatever normal is, in this case your normal sword attack/s), and can use your bite as a secondary natural weapon in addition to your normal routine. If you had claws you couldn't use them because one is wielding the sword and the other the shield. As usual, you need a full attack action to make more than 1 attack, regardless of source.
Alchemistmerlin 06-23-05, 07:22 PM	Ok thanks, that's the answer I was hoping for. Yay for Psychic Warrior doing too much damage :D
Colmarr 06-26-05, 05:17 PM	To clarify what Nom said, there is a penalty, but it's only the normal -5 second natural weapon penalty. To clarify, if your BAB is +3 and you have no strength bonus, your sword attack would be at +3, and your bite attack would be at a total of -2. If your BAB is +6, your sword attacks would be +6/+1 and your bite attack would be +1. If your BAB is +6 and your were two-weapon fighting with two shortswords and the TWF feat, your attacks would be sword +4/+4/-1 and your bite attack would be +1. (ie. the TWF penalty doesn't apply to the bite).