Combining armed and unarmed attacks. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Combining armed and unarmed attacks. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Francius
05-16-06, 12:29 AM I was wandering if it's possible while taking a full round action (obviously) to make an attack with a weapon and then with a punch/headbutt/kick.

Example:

Fighter lvl 6,BAB +6/+1

The +6 attack I make it with a longsword then close up to the defender (does he get an attack of opportunity?)and puch/kick/headbutt with the +1 bonus.

Is it possible?
MayhemST
05-16-06, 12:34 AM Yes it is possible and he does get an AoO unless you have improved unarmed strike, then there's no AoO involved. Also keep in mind that unarmed strikes benefit from Power Attack as well, so if you PA with the longsword and hit, then hit with the unarmed strike, you apply the extra damage from PA as well.
jaelis
05-16-06, 12:37 AM It's no problem. You will draw an AoO for the unarmed strike, so Improved Unarmed Strike would be good.

It is not entirely clear whether you would take the TWF penalties in the situation you describe. If you do, then you might as well take all three attacks. But the unarmed strike has nothing to do with that question, the same issue comes up if you tried to attack once with the sword and once with a dagger.
Francius
05-16-06, 12:40 AM Hey Mayhem,you're here too eh?

Closing up (bring the body close to the defender as the PHB says) to the defender to kick/punch/headbutt him I guess it doesn't count as a move action.

Before I make the unarmed attack shouldn't I drop the longsword?

Would that count as move action?
jaelis
05-16-06, 12:42 AM If you drop the longsword, you don't have to worry about TWFing. Dropping an item is a free action.

You don't have to "close up", you can make an unarmed strike from 5 feet away, just like a longsword attack. Whatever closing you do is represented by the AoO. There's no action involved.
Francius
05-16-06, 12:43 AM If you drop the longsword, you don't have to worry about TWFing. Dropping an item is a free action.

You don't have to "close up", you can make an unarmed strike from 5 feet away, just like a longsword attack. Whatever closing you do is represented by the AoO. There's no action involved.

Ok but, who talked about TWFing?
jaelis
05-16-06, 12:45 AM If you don't drop the sword, you'd be TWFing. I thought that's what you were talking about at first.
Francius
05-16-06, 12:50 AM If you don't drop the sword, you'd be TWFing. I thought that's what you were talking about at first.

If I didn't drop the sword i would be making two attacks with it since I have a BAB of +6/+1.

Would things be different then?
jaelis
05-16-06, 12:54 AM Depending on how your DM reads the TWF rules, you might be able to attack at +6 with the sword and then at +1 with your unarmed strike as an off hand attack. Then you don't need to drop the sword, which is usually a good thing.
Vahenir
05-16-06, 03:03 AM I think, in this situation, the spirit of the rules is more important than the letter of the rules. TWFing rules were designed to keep people from being so much better as to make any other combat options irrelevant.

An unarmed attack is ridiculously ineffective compared to most weapons, for most character types. Why penalize it. You wanna punch someone in the face after taking a swipe at them? Go for it. Don't even drop the sword - punch them with your sword hand, or your left hand. No TWFing because it isn't powerful enough to need to be balanced by penalties. It's a weak attack that you'd really have no reason to do.

I'd even make a feat for it that allows your punch to shake up an enemy if you punch them before taking a swipe. Meaning - sacrifice one of your attacks to make your weak-wristed little punch or kick, and force them to take a penalty to their AC against your next attack. Sounds fun. Go with it.

Spirit before letter, spirit before letter.
mvincent
05-16-06, 04:41 PM If you don't drop the sword, you'd be TWFing.I don't believe so. From the 3.5 FAQ:
"There’s nothing inherent in the full attack action that
requires all the attacks to be made as the same kind of attack or
with the same kind of weapon.
A character with a base attack bonus of +6 or better holding
a longsword, for example, could make a melee attack with the
longsword (using his full base attack bonus), drop the
longsword (a free action), use Quick Draw to draw a dagger
(another free action), then throw the dagger (using his base
attack bonus –5). If the character had both hands free (for
instance, if he didn’t carry a light or heavy shield in his off
hand), he could even use Quick Draw to draw a bow (free
action), draw and nock an arrow (free action) and then shoot
the bow (using his base attack bonus –5).
This situation is actually improved if the melee weapon is a
two-handed weapon. A character can hold a two-handed
weapon in one hand; he just can’t attack with it while it’s held
like that. Thus, he wouldn’t even have to drop the weapon in
order to draw and throw the dagger. If Krusk the 6th-level
barbarian had Quick Draw, he could swing his greataxe (using
his full base attack bonus), then leave the axe in his off-hand
while drawing a javelin with his primary hand (free action), and
finally throw the javelin (using his base attack bonus –5). If
Krusk were drawing a ranged weapon that required two hands
to use (such as a bow), he’d have to drop his greataxe."
Benime
05-16-06, 04:55 PM I don't believe so. From the 3.5 FAQ:
"There’s nothing inherent in the full attack action that
requires all the attacks to be made as the same kind of attack or
with the same kind of weapon.
A character with a base attack bonus of +6 or better holding
a longsword, for example, could make a melee attack with the
longsword (using his full base attack bonus), drop the
longsword (a free action), use Quick Draw to draw a dagger
(another free action), then throw the dagger (using his base
attack bonus –5). If the character had both hands free (for
instance, if he didn’t carry a light or heavy shield in his off
hand), he could even use Quick Draw to draw a bow (free
action), draw and nock an arrow (free action) and then shoot
the bow (using his base attack bonus –5).
This situation is actually improved if the melee weapon is a
two-handed weapon. A character can hold a two-handed
weapon in one hand; he just can’t attack with it while it’s held
like that. Thus, he wouldn’t even have to drop the weapon in
order to draw and throw the dagger. If Krusk the 6th-level
barbarian had Quick Draw, he could swing his greataxe (using
his full base attack bonus), then leave the axe in his off-hand
while drawing a javelin with his primary hand (free action), and
finally throw the javelin (using his base attack bonus –5). If
Krusk were drawing a ranged weapon that required two hands
to use (such as a bow), he’d have to drop his greataxe."

BINGO!

You only suffer TWF penalties if you try to get more than your share of attacks in a round. For example, if you've got a weapon in each hand and a BAB of +6, you can feel free to attack once with each weapon, just keep in mind which one's at +6 and which one's at +1, not to mention the fact that you'll be dealing half strength damage with the off-hand weapon. However, if you try to get that extra attack with the off-hand weapon, you pay for it with huge penalties on all attacks.
mvincent
05-16-06, 05:24 PM if you've got a weapon in each hand and a BAB of +6, you can feel free to attack once with each weapon, just keep in mind which one's at +6 and which one's at +1, not to mention the fact that you'll be dealing half strength damage with the off-hand weapon.I don't believe you'll be doing 1/2 strength damage in this case.
Benime
05-16-06, 05:45 PM I don't believe you'll be doing 1/2 strength damage in this case.

If you review the rules in the equipment section of the 3.5 PHB, you will note that in the section where they define one-hand, two-hand and light weapons, they specifically state that a weapon wielded in the off-hand deals half strength damage.
Kermez
05-16-06, 05:48 PM I don't think that's correct. In the above example, nowhere does a character get an attack with his "off-hand" (for lack of a better term), only with his primary hand. I think this was done on purpose; i.e., all attacks on a full attack must be with the same hand but not necessarily the same weapon, or you suffer TWF penalties.
Benime
05-16-06, 05:52 PM I don't think that's correct. In the above example, nowhere does a character get an attack with his "off-hand" (for lack of a better term), only with his primary hand. I think this was done on purpose; i.e., all attacks on a full attack must be with the same hand but not necessarily the same weapon, or you suffer TWF penalties.

Or it could have been done to avoid complicating the issue with the fact that weapons wielded in a character's off-hand deal half-damage, since the point of the issue was that it doesn't matter what you use to make your attacks in a round, so long as you don't take more than your share. TWF is designed to give you extra attacks.

Can someone with access to a book look up the exact passage? It's at the beginning of the equipment chapter.
mvincent
05-16-06, 06:10 PM If you review the rules in the equipment section of the 3.5 PHB, you will note that in the section where they define one-hand, two-hand and light weapons, they specifically state that a weapon wielded in the off-hand deals half strength damage.What about kicks and headbutts?

Note that the rules regarding handiness have changed somewhat in 3.5 (seems to have been effectively removed), and many passages have not been brought up to date (making this whole topic rather muddled).

I actually pondered the same viewpoint you hold (long before posting), but I'm now asking you to ponder mine. The previously cited passage from the FAQ (that you said "Bingo" to) does not appear to involve 1/2 strength damage.

Kermez's point (that no off-hand weapons were used) is actually very valid, but there are many examples of an attack being considered alternately off-hand or primary hand based soley on current preference (i.e handiness not being a factor). Example:
"If you use the full attack action, you can use armor spikes as either a primary light weapon or as an off-hand light weapon"
or
"You can use the armor spikes as the primary weapon and the two-handed weapon as the off-hand attack"
Benime
05-16-06, 06:23 PM What about kicks and headbutts?

I believe they deal full damage for simplicity's sake. I know bite attacks (which humanoids don't naturally get) deal 1/2 damage unless they've got a fanged maw or something.

Note that the rules regarding handiness have changed somewhat in 3.5, and many passages have not be brought up to date (making this whole topic rather muddled).

I actually pondered the same viewpoint you hold (long before posting), but I'm now asking you to ponder mine. The previously cited passage from the FAQ (that you said "Bingo" to) does not appear to involve 1/2 strength damage.

I apologize for making my points as confusing as possible, lol. :D

Okay, let me rephrase. My "BINGO!" comment was to the quoted passage's references to using different weapons in a full attack action.

THEN, on a different track of the same line, I was noting that you could also use your off-hand, but that in the PHB under the listing for handed-ness concerning weapons in the Equipment chapter, off-hand weapons deal 1/2 strength damage. I realize the quoted ("BINGO"ed? lol) passage above doesn't state that there, but I believe that's because they didn't want to confuse the two issues together like... uh... I just did? :D
mvincent
05-16-06, 06:27 PM I believe they deal full damage for simplicity's sake. They actually deal damage based on whether the player designated them as the primary or off-hand attack (see the armor spike quote above).

I know bite attacks (which humanoids don't naturally get) deal 1/2 damage unless they've got a fanged maw or something.I believe the bite damage is based on whether the natural weapon is labeled the primary or secondary weapon.
Benime
05-16-06, 07:03 PM They actually deal damage based on whether the player designated them as the primary or off-hand attack (see the armor spike quote above).

I believe the bite damage is based on whether the natural weapon is labeled the primary or secondary weapon.

Right. We have an accord. :D
Sledged
05-16-06, 07:09 PM I believe the bite damage is based on whether the natural weapon is labeled the primary or secondary weapon.And as always, there are exceptions. A dragon's tail slap is a secondary weapon that deal 1½ str bonus damage.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Francius 05-16-06, 12:29 AM	I was wandering if it's possible while taking a full round action (obviously) to make an attack with a weapon and then with a punch/headbutt/kick. Example: Fighter lvl 6,BAB +6/+1 The +6 attack I make it with a longsword then close up to the defender (does he get an attack of opportunity?)and puch/kick/headbutt with the +1 bonus. Is it possible?
MayhemST 05-16-06, 12:34 AM	Yes it is possible and he does get an AoO unless you have improved unarmed strike, then there's no AoO involved. Also keep in mind that unarmed strikes benefit from Power Attack as well, so if you PA with the longsword and hit, then hit with the unarmed strike, you apply the extra damage from PA as well.
jaelis 05-16-06, 12:37 AM	It's no problem. You will draw an AoO for the unarmed strike, so Improved Unarmed Strike would be good. It is not entirely clear whether you would take the TWF penalties in the situation you describe. If you do, then you might as well take all three attacks. But the unarmed strike has nothing to do with that question, the same issue comes up if you tried to attack once with the sword and once with a dagger.
Francius 05-16-06, 12:40 AM	Hey Mayhem,you're here too eh? Closing up (bring the body close to the defender as the PHB says) to the defender to kick/punch/headbutt him I guess it doesn't count as a move action. Before I make the unarmed attack shouldn't I drop the longsword? Would that count as move action?
jaelis 05-16-06, 12:42 AM	If you drop the longsword, you don't have to worry about TWFing. Dropping an item is a free action. You don't have to "close up", you can make an unarmed strike from 5 feet away, just like a longsword attack. Whatever closing you do is represented by the AoO. There's no action involved.
Francius 05-16-06, 12:43 AM	If you drop the longsword, you don't have to worry about TWFing. Dropping an item is a free action. You don't have to "close up", you can make an unarmed strike from 5 feet away, just like a longsword attack. Whatever closing you do is represented by the AoO. There's no action involved. Ok but, who talked about TWFing?
jaelis 05-16-06, 12:45 AM	If you don't drop the sword, you'd be TWFing. I thought that's what you were talking about at first.
Francius 05-16-06, 12:50 AM	If you don't drop the sword, you'd be TWFing. I thought that's what you were talking about at first. If I didn't drop the sword i would be making two attacks with it since I have a BAB of +6/+1. Would things be different then?
jaelis 05-16-06, 12:54 AM	Depending on how your DM reads the TWF rules, you might be able to attack at +6 with the sword and then at +1 with your unarmed strike as an off hand attack. Then you don't need to drop the sword, which is usually a good thing.
Vahenir 05-16-06, 03:03 AM	I think, in this situation, the spirit of the rules is more important than the letter of the rules. TWFing rules were designed to keep people from being so much better as to make any other combat options irrelevant. An unarmed attack is ridiculously ineffective compared to most weapons, for most character types. Why penalize it. You wanna punch someone in the face after taking a swipe at them? Go for it. Don't even drop the sword - punch them with your sword hand, or your left hand. No TWFing because it isn't powerful enough to need to be balanced by penalties. It's a weak attack that you'd really have no reason to do. I'd even make a feat for it that allows your punch to shake up an enemy if you punch them before taking a swipe. Meaning - sacrifice one of your attacks to make your weak-wristed little punch or kick, and force them to take a penalty to their AC against your next attack. Sounds fun. Go with it. Spirit before letter, spirit before letter.
mvincent 05-16-06, 04:41 PM	If you don't drop the sword, you'd be TWFing.I don't believe so. From the 3.5 FAQ: "There’s nothing inherent in the full attack action that requires all the attacks to be made as the same kind of attack or with the same kind of weapon. A character with a base attack bonus of +6 or better holding a longsword, for example, could make a melee attack with the longsword (using his full base attack bonus), drop the longsword (a free action), use Quick Draw to draw a dagger (another free action), then throw the dagger (using his base attack bonus –5). If the character had both hands free (for instance, if he didn’t carry a light or heavy shield in his off hand), he could even use Quick Draw to draw a bow (free action), draw and nock an arrow (free action) and then shoot the bow (using his base attack bonus –5). This situation is actually improved if the melee weapon is a two-handed weapon. A character can hold a two-handed weapon in one hand; he just can’t attack with it while it’s held like that. Thus, he wouldn’t even have to drop the weapon in order to draw and throw the dagger. If Krusk the 6th-level barbarian had Quick Draw, he could swing his greataxe (using his full base attack bonus), then leave the axe in his off-hand while drawing a javelin with his primary hand (free action), and finally throw the javelin (using his base attack bonus –5). If Krusk were drawing a ranged weapon that required two hands to use (such as a bow), he’d have to drop his greataxe."
Benime 05-16-06, 04:55 PM	I don't believe so. From the 3.5 FAQ: "There’s nothing inherent in the full attack action that requires all the attacks to be made as the same kind of attack or with the same kind of weapon. A character with a base attack bonus of +6 or better holding a longsword, for example, could make a melee attack with the longsword (using his full base attack bonus), drop the longsword (a free action), use Quick Draw to draw a dagger (another free action), then throw the dagger (using his base attack bonus –5). If the character had both hands free (for instance, if he didn’t carry a light or heavy shield in his off hand), he could even use Quick Draw to draw a bow (free action), draw and nock an arrow (free action) and then shoot the bow (using his base attack bonus –5). This situation is actually improved if the melee weapon is a two-handed weapon. A character can hold a two-handed weapon in one hand; he just can’t attack with it while it’s held like that. Thus, he wouldn’t even have to drop the weapon in order to draw and throw the dagger. If Krusk the 6th-level barbarian had Quick Draw, he could swing his greataxe (using his full base attack bonus), then leave the axe in his off-hand while drawing a javelin with his primary hand (free action), and finally throw the javelin (using his base attack bonus –5). If Krusk were drawing a ranged weapon that required two hands to use (such as a bow), he’d have to drop his greataxe." BINGO! You only suffer TWF penalties if you try to get more than your share of attacks in a round. For example, if you've got a weapon in each hand and a BAB of +6, you can feel free to attack once with each weapon, just keep in mind which one's at +6 and which one's at +1, not to mention the fact that you'll be dealing half strength damage with the off-hand weapon. However, if you try to get that extra attack with the off-hand weapon, you pay for it with huge penalties on all attacks.
mvincent 05-16-06, 05:24 PM	if you've got a weapon in each hand and a BAB of +6, you can feel free to attack once with each weapon, just keep in mind which one's at +6 and which one's at +1, not to mention the fact that you'll be dealing half strength damage with the off-hand weapon.I don't believe you'll be doing 1/2 strength damage in this case.
Benime 05-16-06, 05:45 PM	I don't believe you'll be doing 1/2 strength damage in this case. If you review the rules in the equipment section of the 3.5 PHB, you will note that in the section where they define one-hand, two-hand and light weapons, they specifically state that a weapon wielded in the off-hand deals half strength damage.
Kermez 05-16-06, 05:48 PM	I don't think that's correct. In the above example, nowhere does a character get an attack with his "off-hand" (for lack of a better term), only with his primary hand. I think this was done on purpose; i.e., all attacks on a full attack must be with the same hand but not necessarily the same weapon, or you suffer TWF penalties.
Benime 05-16-06, 05:52 PM	I don't think that's correct. In the above example, nowhere does a character get an attack with his "off-hand" (for lack of a better term), only with his primary hand. I think this was done on purpose; i.e., all attacks on a full attack must be with the same hand but not necessarily the same weapon, or you suffer TWF penalties. Or it could have been done to avoid complicating the issue with the fact that weapons wielded in a character's off-hand deal half-damage, since the point of the issue was that it doesn't matter what you use to make your attacks in a round, so long as you don't take more than your share. TWF is designed to give you extra attacks. Can someone with access to a book look up the exact passage? It's at the beginning of the equipment chapter.
mvincent 05-16-06, 06:10 PM	If you review the rules in the equipment section of the 3.5 PHB, you will note that in the section where they define one-hand, two-hand and light weapons, they specifically state that a weapon wielded in the off-hand deals half strength damage.What about kicks and headbutts? Note that the rules regarding handiness have changed somewhat in 3.5 (seems to have been effectively removed), and many passages have not been brought up to date (making this whole topic rather muddled). I actually pondered the same viewpoint you hold (long before posting), but I'm now asking you to ponder mine. The previously cited passage from the FAQ (that you said "Bingo" to) does not appear to involve 1/2 strength damage. Kermez's point (that no off-hand weapons were used) is actually very valid, but there are many examples of an attack being considered alternately off-hand or primary hand based soley on current preference (i.e handiness not being a factor). Example: "If you use the full attack action, you can use armor spikes as either a primary light weapon or as an off-hand light weapon" or "You can use the armor spikes as the primary weapon and the two-handed weapon as the off-hand attack"
Benime 05-16-06, 06:23 PM	What about kicks and headbutts? I believe they deal full damage for simplicity's sake. I know bite attacks (which humanoids don't naturally get) deal 1/2 damage unless they've got a fanged maw or something. Note that the rules regarding handiness have changed somewhat in 3.5, and many passages have not be brought up to date (making this whole topic rather muddled). I actually pondered the same viewpoint you hold (long before posting), but I'm now asking you to ponder mine. The previously cited passage from the FAQ (that you said "Bingo" to) does not appear to involve 1/2 strength damage. I apologize for making my points as confusing as possible, lol. :D Okay, let me rephrase. My "BINGO!" comment was to the quoted passage's references to using different weapons in a full attack action. THEN, on a different track of the same line, I was noting that you could also use your off-hand, but that in the PHB under the listing for handed-ness concerning weapons in the Equipment chapter, off-hand weapons deal 1/2 strength damage. I realize the quoted ("BINGO"ed? lol) passage above doesn't state that there, but I believe that's because they didn't want to confuse the two issues together like... uh... I just did? :D
mvincent 05-16-06, 06:27 PM	I believe they deal full damage for simplicity's sake. They actually deal damage based on whether the player designated them as the primary or off-hand attack (see the armor spike quote above). I know bite attacks (which humanoids don't naturally get) deal 1/2 damage unless they've got a fanged maw or something.I believe the bite damage is based on whether the natural weapon is labeled the primary or secondary weapon.
Benime 05-16-06, 07:03 PM	They actually deal damage based on whether the player designated them as the primary or off-hand attack (see the armor spike quote above). I believe the bite damage is based on whether the natural weapon is labeled the primary or secondary weapon. Right. We have an accord. :D
Sledged 05-16-06, 07:09 PM	I believe the bite damage is based on whether the natural weapon is labeled the primary or secondary weapon.And as always, there are exceptions. A dragon's tail slap is a secondary weapon that deal 1½ str bonus damage.