Combining Expertise with Power Attack... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Combining Expertise with Power Attack... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Netherek
12-19-06, 05:48 PM Can one use Power Attack when they are using Combat Expertise, fighting defensively, or with Weapon Finesse. I thought I read somewhere that you couldn't do this, but I don't recall where.

Can someone confirm this and where???
Nephlite
12-19-06, 05:56 PM Can one use Power Attack when they are using Combat Expertise, fighting defensively, or with Weapon Finesse. I thought I read somewhere that you couldn't do this, but I don't recall where.

Can someone confirm this and where???

The only one who can't is a raging Barbarian (no combat expertise allowed).

Yuo can combine all three with all the penalties of accuracy that follow:
-4 + - bab (up to +5 combat expertise) + - Bab (power attack, up to all bab)=low chance of hitting. But good damage and Dodge bonus to AC.
draconic_swine
12-19-06, 05:56 PM There's nothing preventing you from combining power attack with any of the three things you mentioned. Combat expertise and fighting defensively are meant to represent your character focusing more on defending himself than attacking, but he is still attacking. This is actually a good tactic to use when fighting an opponent who you can only hit with a natural 20.

There's nothing preventing you from combining power attack and weapon finesse; it just so happens that the majority of weapons that you can use weapon finesse with are light weapons, which can't be power attacked with. For the non-light weapon that are useable with weapon finesse (rapier, whip, spiked chain), you can definitely use power attack as well.
Mitchell
12-19-06, 11:50 PM ...But the BAB you use to feed power attack aren't the same ones that you use to feed expertise. If you want to subtract 2 BAB for PA and 2 BAB for expertise, you are subtracting 4 from your BAB.
Steevo
12-20-06, 12:21 AM ...But the BAB you use to feed power attack aren't the same ones that you use to feed expertise. If you want to subtract 2 BAB for PA and 2 BAB for expertise, you are subtracting 4 from your BAB.

Actually, PA and CE both say that their respective penalties are "limited by your BAB." There's nothing in there that says these penalties "add up," and your actual BAB is not modified (otherwise you would lose twice as much to hit as you took in penalties - once for the penalty itself and once more because your BAB is now smaller.) Therefore after you've applied one of these feats and you go to apply the other, your BAB is still the same value as normal and the cap on the second feat is the same as the first.
Salla
12-20-06, 12:30 AM Actually, PA and CE both say that their respective penalties are "limited by your BAB." There's nothing in there that says these penalties "add up," and your actual BAB is not modified (otherwise you would lose twice as much to hit as you took in penalties - once for the penalty itself and once more because your BAB is now smaller.) Therefore after you've applied one of these feats and you go to apply the other, your BAB is still the same value as normal and the cap on the second feat is the same as the first.

As further evidence that your BAB does not actually decrease, note that someone with multiple attacks due to a high BAB still gets all of them. Someone at +6/+1 who uses 3 points of power attack swings at +3/-2.
draconic_swine
12-20-06, 05:47 PM I hate to break it to you, but if you power attack for an extra 3 damage with a one-handed weapon while using combat expertise to boost your AC by 2 at the same time, you're gonna take a -5 penalty to attack. They are both unnamed penalties, which means that they stack, just like unnamed bonuses would stack. Other than the limit by how much you can adjust your attack bonus, your BAB has nothing to do with it.
Steevo
12-20-06, 07:04 PM I hate to break it to you, but if you power attack for an extra 3 damage with a one-handed weapon while using combat expertise to boost your AC by 2 at the same time, you're gonna take a -5 penalty to attack. They are both unnamed penalties, which means that they stack, just like unnamed bonuses would stack. Other than the limit by how much you can adjust your attack bonus, your BAB has nothing to do with it.

Yes, I'm not arguing against that. I agree completely, in fact. But what I was saying is that if you have a BAB of +5 you can, in fact, opt to take a -5 penalty in order to power attack for +5 damage AND take another -5 penalty to boost AC by +5 at the same time. You're taking a huge penalty to attack (-10), but you are allowed. Both feats are limited by your BAB, but there's nothing anywhere that I know of which says that both penalties combined must total your BAB or less.

The other part of what I was saying is that your BAB itself does not drop from use of these feats. If you take a -5 penalty to power attack for +5 damage, your BAB is still +5. If it weren't, your net attack modifier would drop by twice the penalty, as I described above.
draconic_swine
12-20-06, 08:53 PM Yes, I'm not arguing against that. I agree completely, in fact. But what I was saying is that if you have a BAB of +5 you can, in fact, opt to take a -5 penalty in order to power attack for +5 damage AND take another -5 penalty to boost AC by +5 at the same time. You're taking a huge penalty to attack (-10), but you are allowed. Both feats are limited by your BAB, but there's nothing anywhere that I know of which says that both penalties combined must total your BAB or less.

The other part of what I was saying is that your BAB itself does not drop from use of these feats. If you take a -5 penalty to power attack for +5 damage, your BAB is still +5. If it weren't, your net attack modifier would drop by twice the penalty, as I described above.

That's good, I was just misunderstanding what you said :) The thing that probably threw me was that they don't "add up". Definitely agree with everything else you said, too.
Mitchell
12-20-06, 10:54 PM Yes, I am in agreement. My original post could have been worded better. :cool:
Worloch
12-21-06, 09:02 AM The best time to use this is if you are already fighting something that you need 20's to hit at all.

For instance, a 5th level fighter, 16 str is swinging away with a longsword. His bonus to hit is +8 (+5 BAB, +3 Str). He has Combat Expertise and Power Attack.

His foe is wearing full plate+1, has a 12 dex, and is using a tower shield+1. He is also buffed with Shield of Faith and has the dodge feat, which is set on the fighter. His AC is 28 (+9 armor, +1 dex, +5 shield, +2 deflection, +1 dodge).

The fighter needs to roll a 20 to hit AC 28. This is a 5% chance to hit. A rolled 20 always hits though, so his chance to hit can't drop below that 5%.

He can safely Power Attack for 5, Combat Expertise for 5 and Fight Defensively, dropping his bonus to hit from +8 to -6 (-5 PA, -5 Exp, -4 Defensive) and still have the same chance to hit. However, his AC will go up by 7 (+5 Exp, +2 Defensive) and his damage will go up by 5 or 10 (depending on 1 or 2 handed-ness).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Netherek 12-19-06, 05:48 PM	Can one use Power Attack when they are using Combat Expertise, fighting defensively, or with Weapon Finesse. I thought I read somewhere that you couldn't do this, but I don't recall where. Can someone confirm this and where???
Nephlite 12-19-06, 05:56 PM	Can one use Power Attack when they are using Combat Expertise, fighting defensively, or with Weapon Finesse. I thought I read somewhere that you couldn't do this, but I don't recall where. Can someone confirm this and where??? The only one who can't is a raging Barbarian (no combat expertise allowed). Yuo can combine all three with all the penalties of accuracy that follow: -4 + - bab (up to +5 combat expertise) + - Bab (power attack, up to all bab)=low chance of hitting. But good damage and Dodge bonus to AC.
draconic_swine 12-19-06, 05:56 PM	There's nothing preventing you from combining power attack with any of the three things you mentioned. Combat expertise and fighting defensively are meant to represent your character focusing more on defending himself than attacking, but he is still attacking. This is actually a good tactic to use when fighting an opponent who you can only hit with a natural 20. There's nothing preventing you from combining power attack and weapon finesse; it just so happens that the majority of weapons that you can use weapon finesse with are light weapons, which can't be power attacked with. For the non-light weapon that are useable with weapon finesse (rapier, whip, spiked chain), you can definitely use power attack as well.
Mitchell 12-19-06, 11:50 PM	...But the BAB you use to feed power attack aren't the same ones that you use to feed expertise. If you want to subtract 2 BAB for PA and 2 BAB for expertise, you are subtracting 4 from your BAB.
Steevo 12-20-06, 12:21 AM	...But the BAB you use to feed power attack aren't the same ones that you use to feed expertise. If you want to subtract 2 BAB for PA and 2 BAB for expertise, you are subtracting 4 from your BAB. Actually, PA and CE both say that their respective penalties are "limited by your BAB." There's nothing in there that says these penalties "add up," and your actual BAB is not modified (otherwise you would lose twice as much to hit as you took in penalties - once for the penalty itself and once more because your BAB is now smaller.) Therefore after you've applied one of these feats and you go to apply the other, your BAB is still the same value as normal and the cap on the second feat is the same as the first.
Salla 12-20-06, 12:30 AM	Actually, PA and CE both say that their respective penalties are "limited by your BAB." There's nothing in there that says these penalties "add up," and your actual BAB is not modified (otherwise you would lose twice as much to hit as you took in penalties - once for the penalty itself and once more because your BAB is now smaller.) Therefore after you've applied one of these feats and you go to apply the other, your BAB is still the same value as normal and the cap on the second feat is the same as the first. As further evidence that your BAB does not actually decrease, note that someone with multiple attacks due to a high BAB still gets all of them. Someone at +6/+1 who uses 3 points of power attack swings at +3/-2.
draconic_swine 12-20-06, 05:47 PM	I hate to break it to you, but if you power attack for an extra 3 damage with a one-handed weapon while using combat expertise to boost your AC by 2 at the same time, you're gonna take a -5 penalty to attack. They are both unnamed penalties, which means that they stack, just like unnamed bonuses would stack. Other than the limit by how much you can adjust your attack bonus, your BAB has nothing to do with it.
Steevo 12-20-06, 07:04 PM	I hate to break it to you, but if you power attack for an extra 3 damage with a one-handed weapon while using combat expertise to boost your AC by 2 at the same time, you're gonna take a -5 penalty to attack. They are both unnamed penalties, which means that they stack, just like unnamed bonuses would stack. Other than the limit by how much you can adjust your attack bonus, your BAB has nothing to do with it. Yes, I'm not arguing against that. I agree completely, in fact. But what I was saying is that if you have a BAB of +5 you can, in fact, opt to take a -5 penalty in order to power attack for +5 damage AND take another -5 penalty to boost AC by +5 at the same time. You're taking a huge penalty to attack (-10), but you are allowed. Both feats are limited by your BAB, but there's nothing anywhere that I know of which says that both penalties combined must total your BAB or less. The other part of what I was saying is that your BAB itself does not drop from use of these feats. If you take a -5 penalty to power attack for +5 damage, your BAB is still +5. If it weren't, your net attack modifier would drop by twice the penalty, as I described above.
draconic_swine 12-20-06, 08:53 PM	Yes, I'm not arguing against that. I agree completely, in fact. But what I was saying is that if you have a BAB of +5 you can, in fact, opt to take a -5 penalty in order to power attack for +5 damage AND take another -5 penalty to boost AC by +5 at the same time. You're taking a huge penalty to attack (-10), but you are allowed. Both feats are limited by your BAB, but there's nothing anywhere that I know of which says that both penalties combined must total your BAB or less. The other part of what I was saying is that your BAB itself does not drop from use of these feats. If you take a -5 penalty to power attack for +5 damage, your BAB is still +5. If it weren't, your net attack modifier would drop by twice the penalty, as I described above. That's good, I was just misunderstanding what you said :) The thing that probably threw me was that they don't "add up". Definitely agree with everything else you said, too.
Mitchell 12-20-06, 10:54 PM	Yes, I am in agreement. My original post could have been worded better. :cool:
Worloch 12-21-06, 09:02 AM	The best time to use this is if you are already fighting something that you need 20's to hit at all. For instance, a 5th level fighter, 16 str is swinging away with a longsword. His bonus to hit is +8 (+5 BAB, +3 Str). He has Combat Expertise and Power Attack. His foe is wearing full plate+1, has a 12 dex, and is using a tower shield+1. He is also buffed with Shield of Faith and has the dodge feat, which is set on the fighter. His AC is 28 (+9 armor, +1 dex, +5 shield, +2 deflection, +1 dodge). The fighter needs to roll a 20 to hit AC 28. This is a 5% chance to hit. A rolled 20 always hits though, so his chance to hit can't drop below that 5%. He can safely Power Attack for 5, Combat Expertise for 5 and Fight Defensively, dropping his bonus to hit from +8 to -6 (-5 PA, -5 Exp, -4 Defensive) and still have the same chance to hit. However, his AC will go up by 7 (+5 Exp, +2 Defensive) and his damage will go up by 5 or 10 (depending on 1 or 2 handed-ness).