Composite Bow Maximum STR Damage? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Composite Bow Maximum STR Damage? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kitep
11-16-07, 09:23 PM Is there a maximum to the amount of STR damage you can get with a composite bow? The description talks about a +4 bonus, but no where does it say that that's the max. So can I get a +10, +20, +100 or whatever my strength and bank account allows?
runestar
11-16-07, 09:29 PM Whatever your str and wallet allows.

Get +20, +30 or even +100 if you feel so inclined.:)
InkBlot
11-17-07, 04:11 AM Just keep in mind that it's entirely within the DM's power to say that you have to go through some kind of quest to find the materials to make a +200 strength rating bow, or to find a boyer mighty enough to craft it. You may need to travel to other planes of existance even.

Also keep in mind that it's also within the DM's power to make this quest totall un-fun and ruin the game.

Also keep in mind that it's also within your power to vote with your feet.

Also keep in mind that it's might be pretty difficult to find another D&D game to play in on short notice.

In other words, rule 0 is the only limit.
T_Stalker
11-17-07, 07:23 AM And don't forget ofcourse the Bow of the Wintermoon in MiC, who automatically adjusts to your strength.
dman11235
11-17-07, 08:53 AM Or Hank's bow from the cartoon. It's somewhere on the wizards site.
1 ton ghost
11-17-07, 12:54 PM And don't forget ofcourse the Bow of the Wintermoon in MiC, who automatically adjusts to your strength.

really? nice save then...

i know it's generic, but yeah, the "average" mentality is just ot keep throwing more $ at the problem and viola!, a new kick ass bow. but, seriously, it's not always gonna' work. just finding a smithy/fletcher to do it is 1/2 the battle.
i know it's subsumed in the "extra cost", but c'mon. you'd need some seriously good materials that to handle anything over typical human max in a typical human city. guess you'd have better odds in a metropolis. or you could Gather Info to find the archetyal "old wise master" that makes super weapons of 'x' variety on ancient mountain for thousands of years. hammy, i know, but a plot hook nonetheless.
risner
11-17-07, 01:47 PM Is there a maximum to the amount of STR damage you can get with a composite bow? The description talks about a +4 bonus, but no where does it say that that's the max. So can I get a +10, +20, +100 or whatever my strength and bank account allows?

I am more interested on how you got your STR score to 200+?

285 STR in M&M was enough to crack the earth in half.
Ikyotojin
11-17-07, 02:16 PM The problem with bows is that the strong the pull, the strong the user MUST be to pull it. Something that a character with a strength of 20 can pull and gain full bonus from, a character with a strength of 11 wouldn't be able to string.

There should be minimum/maximum ratings for bows in the rules. I use a two point shift with my games. If you have a bow and your strength is 11, then you can use a bow made for someone with as much as 13 strength. The maximum damage bonus is no more than 2 above the pull of the bow. You might have the arms of a titan, but if you pick up a bow made for a skinny kobold, that bow isn't going to fire any further or with any more force than it was made to do.
runestar
11-17-07, 08:07 PM Something that a character with a strength of 20 can pull and gain full bonus from, a character with a strength of 11 wouldn't be able to string.

This is represented by the to-hit penalty you get from using said bow if your str is less than what is needed to get full benefit. Yeah, this means that a PC with 10 str can still use a composite bow built for a titan with 50str...:cool:

i know it's generic, but yeah, the "average" mentality is just ot keep throwing more $ at the problem and viola!, a new kick ass bow. but, seriously, it's not always gonna' work. just finding a smithy/fletcher to do it is 1/2 the battle.

That is the implicit assumption underlying dnd - cities have wealth guidelines of their own, it is assumed that players be allowed to access whatever they want within these limits. DnD is pretty much a wargame to start with, towns are just a transition area where they sell off unwanted loot and restock what they need before entering the next dungeon.:)
Meep222
11-18-07, 02:14 AM just finding a smithy/fletcher to do it is 1/2 the battle.
i know it's subsumed in the "extra cost", but c'mon. you'd need some seriously good materials that to handle anything over typical human max in a typical human city. guess you'd have better odds in a metropolis. or you could Gather Info to find the archetyal "old wise master" that makes super weapons of 'x' variety on ancient mountain for thousands of years. hammy, i know, but a plot hook nonetheless.
Easiest way is to find a midling-high wizard or sorcerer and have them limited wish (it'd make sense to do it, wish says it can do it in the base description) into existance. It'll cost ye a base of 2410gp, then, depending on the DM, they might make ye pay more. Then you don't have to go about finding the stuff, nor finding someone skilled enough to make it.
Kernath
11-18-07, 10:20 AM Limited wish might work.

When a limited wish spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 1,000 gp, you must provide that component.

Since limited wish can duplicate fabricate (even if the caster has been so silly as to prohibit transmutation), and the base materials are technically part of the material component (they're also the target, but we're wishing here, we can stretch the effect ever so slightly), you could wish for a non-magical item worth up to 3,000 gp. That's a composite longbow rated for a strength bonus of up to +26. If your strength is that high, though, you should really consider grabbing some returning javelins and taking the Brutal Throw feat.
risner
11-18-07, 02:03 PM Limited wish might work.

you could wish for a non-magical item worth up to 3,000 gp.

And 3,000/3 = 1,000 gp worth of something disappears from your possessions (since fabricate still requires you pay the raw materials cost in something.)
1 ton ghost
11-18-07, 02:09 PM That is the implicit assumption underlying dnd - cities have wealth guidelines of their own, it is assumed that players be allowed to access whatever they want within these limits. DnD is pretty much a wargame to start with, towns are just a transition area where they sell off unwanted loot and restock what they need before entering the next dungeon.:)

i know, it's just retarded. just assuming price guidlelines by city size vs. gold and all is incredibly foolish and unrealistic. that is to say, everything that isn't "off the rack" or commonplace should have a Gather Info DC to find it. most other RPGs express a system of scoring paralegal/rare stuff, etc.
PC shouldn't be allowed to access whatever they want just cuz' they have the money. actually this is a problem w/ today's kids anyway, but i digress. inevitably, someone, somewhere will want something that will upset game balance and the DM will say "no" despite it "being available" and so forth.
just pouring more $ only into the game makes it more mechanical and is killing the majesty of RP and, ironically, realism. i mean, i would love to have a .50 cal rifle, and technically, it's legal, i just gotta' find it, not just have the $.

just encouraging more +'s and -'s which, IMO, is stagnating an otherwise compelling session.

and i gotta' disagree w/ you on the wargame part. an opinion, nothing more.
runestar
11-18-07, 09:41 PM That is because dnd never intended to fully replicate real life economics, and simply wanted an intuitive and straightforward market system that would facilitate transition from 1 dungeon and the next, without bogging everything down into petty technicalities.

This has nothing to do with real-life economics. Think of the merchant system in games like BG2 or Diablo. The purpose is something similar, because players should be slaying beasts, not playing accountants and ledgers.:P
WebJiCi
11-18-07, 10:02 PM The bone bow from Frostburn adds your STR modifier with the proper proficiency feat.
1 ton ghost
11-19-07, 01:00 PM That is because dnd never intended to fully replicate real life economics, and simply wanted an intuitive and straightforward market system that would facilitate transition from 1 dungeon and the next, without bogging everything down into petty technicalities.

This has nothing to do with real-life economics. Think of the merchant system in games like BG2 or Diablo. The purpose is something similar, because players should be slaying beasts, not playing accountants and ledgers.:P

i hardly call ruling for 1 Gather Info roll to locate an adequate supplier petty or bogging one down in mechanics. well, maybe if the players are young kids or mentally handicapped, but to each his own. if this isn't "streamlined enough for the masses", screw 'em, no one said they have to use it. rule 0 and all that. freedom of choice for others. i'm w/ the later...
no one is tyring to replicate anything. striving for a bit of realism w/ a simple roll of one's dice does not seem like a huge deviation. simply assuming that you can afford item 'x' and then it's available does.
and i don't pplay BG2/Diablo. if it's an RPG, it's gonna' be pen/paper always. just my preference i suppose.
Kernath
11-19-07, 05:19 PM And 3,000/3 = 1,000 gp worth of something disappears from your possessions (since fabricate still requires you pay the raw materials cost in something.)

Where on earth does it say that? Fabricate requires that you PROVIDE the materials necessary to make the item. It says nothing about paying for anything.
risner
11-19-07, 08:15 PM Where on earth does it say that? Fabricate requires that you PROVIDE the materials necessary to make the item. It says nothing about paying for anything.

Fabricate requires you to provide the raw materials for the Craft check.
If you are making a 3,000 gp item, that is 3,000/3 or 1,000 gp worth of raw materials.
Fabricate can use any 1,000 gp of raw materials you would like, but it still uses the raw materials and no the two daggers worth much less in raw materials when melted don't cover the cost.
Kernath
11-20-07, 10:27 AM What "two daggers"?

Limited wish provides up to 1,000 gp of materials for duplicated spells. I don't see how that makes random items in your pack disappear.
risner
11-20-07, 12:10 PM What "two daggers"?

Limited wish provides up to 1,000 gp of materials for duplicated spells. I don't see how that makes random items in your pack disappear.

So you use limited wish for a fabricate? Fine, you got 1,000 gp to make that 3,000 gp item.
But if you simply cast Fabricate without Limited Wish, you need the scenario I lay out below.

Am I failing to make my point or are you trying to be funny?

My point is that fabricate only provides you an instantaneous Craft (one that doesn't take weeks to do), but you still must obey all the Craft rules. You need to pay all the raw materials cost for the check. If you have a lot of raw metal, you can make a number of swords equal to the value of the iron * 3. The key point is the number of pounds of iron will be more than the number of pounds of the final product.

Longsword are worth 15 gp and weight 4 lbs.
To make one Longsword you need 15/3 gp worth of Iron (5 gp.)
Iron is worth 1 sp a pound, so 50 pounds of iron is needed to make one 4 pound Longsword.
Tony Vargas
11-20-07, 01:17 PM There's no rule on it, but it wouldn't hurt to set a maximum. Short bows only go up to +2, for instance, while long go up to +4. That at least implies a limit. Placing such a limit would encourage archers to focus on thier DEX, rather than try to boost thier strength a great deal, and make Weapon Specialization attractive for them. If you think it's more apealing to have super-dexterous Legolas types as archers, and super-strong types eschewing the bow in favor of melee and thrown weapons, then it'd be a good idea. If you don't mind even the most committed archer being muscle-bound, and even the most melee oriented super-strong characters having a bow for ranged combat, then don't worry about it.
jaelis
11-20-07, 03:35 PM i hardly call ruling for 1 Gather Info roll to locate an adequate supplier petty or bogging one down in mechanics. well, maybe if the players are young kids or mentally handicapped, but to each his own. if this isn't "streamlined enough for the masses", screw 'em, no one said they have to use it. rule 0 and all that. freedom of choice for others. i'm w/ the later...
no one is tyring to replicate anything. striving for a bit of realism w/ a simple roll of one's dice does not seem like a huge deviation. simply assuming that you can afford item 'x' and then it's available does.
and i don't pplay BG2/Diablo. if it's an RPG, it's gonna' be pen/paper always. just my preference i suppose.

I think the point is that if your characters are at a level where they can afford expensive things like bows with +50 Str ratings, then they should be hanging out in places where it is reasonable to buy expensive things. Making them roll a GI check for weird stuff is cool, but making the DC difficult to reach isn't much fun.

The 3.5 treasure system is tied to character level, and if you don't let characters buy level-appropriate goods, then the system isn't going to work right.
Kernath
11-22-07, 02:49 PM Am I failing to make my point or are you trying to be funny?

I think you're failing to realize that you haven't stated your point up until now.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14366212&postcount=12

You directly quoted me stating that limited wish would work, then invented some cockamamie idea that 1,000 gp worth of random stuff would just up and disappear from your inventory because "fabricate still requires you pay the raw materials cost in something."

You can stop taking offense at the fact that I'm not a telepath now.
Merlin-Karameikos
11-25-07, 08:46 PM Is there a maximum to the amount of STR damage you can get with a composite bow? The description talks about a +4 bonus, but no where does it say that that's the max. So can I get a +10, +20, +100 or whatever my strength and bank account allows?

I think you might want to re-read the PHB again, specifically the Equipment section. In it under the description for Composite Bow(wether long or short) it says you can get a composite bow that will allow you to use your complete Strength Rating(the +1, 2 or whatever) to your damage. But getting one that is higher than your strength rating does you no good, this is because you then take a -2 to your Attack Roll because you are unable to effectively use the bow.

But yes, there is no maxiumum to the Strength rating you can get for a Composite Bow. Just remember, getting one with too high a rating will be detremental to your PC

I also should mention that if your PC is making this bow, or he is having it made for him, it will take a wizard of three times the strength rating, just as if you were making a weapon with a +1 or +3. So if you want a bow with a +20 Strength rating you need to find a wizard who is at least level 60.
Kitep
11-25-07, 10:42 PM But getting one that is higher than your strength rating does you no good, this is because you then take a -2 to your Attack Roll because you are unable to effectively use the bow.

Ah, but that was one of the reasons for my asking. It's only -2 if it's 1 point over my STR or 100 points over my STR. I'm surprised they didn't make it -2 per point, but they didn't (AFAIK)

I also should mention that if your PC is making this bow, or he is having it made for him, it will take a wizard of three times the strength rating

Where can I find this rule? (It's not that I doubt you, I just like to see things for myself)
Kernath
11-27-07, 04:38 PM Ah, but that was one of the reasons for my asking. It's only -2 if it's 1 point over my STR or 100 points over my STR. I'm surprised they didn't make it -2 per point, but they didn't (AFAIK)

You've got that right. Keep in mind that the bow doesn't grant the bonus to damage itself, you still need the appropriate strength rating to actually add any damage. So, if your bow is stronger than you are, you take a -2 to hit for no additional benefit.

Where can I find this rule? (It's not that I doubt you, I just like to see things for myself)

I'm with you on this one. Making a magically enhanced weapon requires a crafter with caster level equal to or higher than 3 times the enhancement bonus, but there's no reason why a 6-strength kobold couldn't make a composite bow for a cloud giant.
dman11235
11-27-07, 06:32 PM Yeah, there is no rule anywhere that I know of about the 3x strength rating. That's only for magic stuffs. As long as you make the craft DC (which would be high) you're fine.
jaelis
11-27-07, 08:12 PM I also should mention that if your PC is making this bow, or he is having it made for him, it will take a wizard of three times the strength rating, just as if you were making a weapon with a +1 or +3. So if you want a bow with a +20 Strength rating you need to find a wizard who is at least level 60.

Actually, it doesn't take a wizard at all, just a good craftsman.
Mirannan
11-28-07, 01:44 PM There is a small problem here, with trying to be realistic. I think that something up to +4 mighty (a bow made for maximum normal human strength) ought to be reasonably easy but get harder for each plus after that.

This is because of basic stuff like strength of materials. A +4 mighty bow might have a 200lb. pull; a +8 might have something like 1000lb. For one thing, how are you going to make a bowstring that will take half a ton of pull, and how are you going to get arrows that won't just shatter when you try to fire them? For that matter, how are you going to make a bow (made from wood and horn, most likely) that won't also break?

For those reasons, I think that the greater the bonus the more exotic the materials you are going to need. For a +8 bow, maybe the entire thing (string included) needs to be made of mithril, using maybe steel arrows with thin metal flights.

Another point here has already been made - using the bow long term. There is already a built-in penalty for using too much bow, but it isn't severe enough. Stringing a bow takes a fair amount of force, and for a normal-strength human to string a +4 bow is likely going to be just about impossible. And as anyone who's actually used a bow will tell you, leaving the bow strung for long periods of time doesn't cut it either; leaving it strung for a day will likely ruin it, especially in the wet. This is because of creep; simply stated, wood gradually deforms under stress - that's why the rooflines of old buildings aren't straight.

In short, no problems up to maybe +4 or +5; then after that you need either exotic (and expensive) or magically enhanced materials. And no fair your 12 strength elf trying to use Odysseus's bow!

However, this whole subject is a prime candidate for rule 0.
CryoSilver
11-28-07, 02:08 PM But magic is widely available anyways, so it wouldn't be much f a problem.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kitep 11-16-07, 09:23 PM	Is there a maximum to the amount of STR damage you can get with a composite bow? The description talks about a +4 bonus, but no where does it say that that's the max. So can I get a +10, +20, +100 or whatever my strength and bank account allows?
runestar 11-16-07, 09:29 PM	Whatever your str and wallet allows. Get +20, +30 or even +100 if you feel so inclined.:)
InkBlot 11-17-07, 04:11 AM	Just keep in mind that it's entirely within the DM's power to say that you have to go through some kind of quest to find the materials to make a +200 strength rating bow, or to find a boyer mighty enough to craft it. You may need to travel to other planes of existance even. Also keep in mind that it's also within the DM's power to make this quest totall un-fun and ruin the game. Also keep in mind that it's also within your power to vote with your feet. Also keep in mind that it's might be pretty difficult to find another D&D game to play in on short notice. In other words, rule 0 is the only limit.
T_Stalker 11-17-07, 07:23 AM	And don't forget ofcourse the Bow of the Wintermoon in MiC, who automatically adjusts to your strength.
dman11235 11-17-07, 08:53 AM	Or Hank's bow from the cartoon. It's somewhere on the wizards site.
1 ton ghost 11-17-07, 12:54 PM	And don't forget ofcourse the Bow of the Wintermoon in MiC, who automatically adjusts to your strength. really? nice save then... i know it's generic, but yeah, the "average" mentality is just ot keep throwing more $ at the problem and viola!, a new kick ass bow. but, seriously, it's not always gonna' work. just finding a smithy/fletcher to do it is 1/2 the battle. i know it's subsumed in the "extra cost", but c'mon. you'd need some seriously good materials that to handle anything over typical human max in a typical human city. guess you'd have better odds in a metropolis. or you could Gather Info to find the archetyal "old wise master" that makes super weapons of 'x' variety on ancient mountain for thousands of years. hammy, i know, but a plot hook nonetheless.
risner 11-17-07, 01:47 PM	Is there a maximum to the amount of STR damage you can get with a composite bow? The description talks about a +4 bonus, but no where does it say that that's the max. So can I get a +10, +20, +100 or whatever my strength and bank account allows? I am more interested on how you got your STR score to 200+? 285 STR in M&M was enough to crack the earth in half.
Ikyotojin 11-17-07, 02:16 PM	The problem with bows is that the strong the pull, the strong the user MUST be to pull it. Something that a character with a strength of 20 can pull and gain full bonus from, a character with a strength of 11 wouldn't be able to string. There should be minimum/maximum ratings for bows in the rules. I use a two point shift with my games. If you have a bow and your strength is 11, then you can use a bow made for someone with as much as 13 strength. The maximum damage bonus is no more than 2 above the pull of the bow. You might have the arms of a titan, but if you pick up a bow made for a skinny kobold, that bow isn't going to fire any further or with any more force than it was made to do.
runestar 11-17-07, 08:07 PM	Something that a character with a strength of 20 can pull and gain full bonus from, a character with a strength of 11 wouldn't be able to string. This is represented by the to-hit penalty you get from using said bow if your str is less than what is needed to get full benefit. Yeah, this means that a PC with 10 str can still use a composite bow built for a titan with 50str...:cool: i know it's generic, but yeah, the "average" mentality is just ot keep throwing more $ at the problem and viola!, a new kick ass bow. but, seriously, it's not always gonna' work. just finding a smithy/fletcher to do it is 1/2 the battle. That is the implicit assumption underlying dnd - cities have wealth guidelines of their own, it is assumed that players be allowed to access whatever they want within these limits. DnD is pretty much a wargame to start with, towns are just a transition area where they sell off unwanted loot and restock what they need before entering the next dungeon.:)
Meep222 11-18-07, 02:14 AM	just finding a smithy/fletcher to do it is 1/2 the battle. i know it's subsumed in the "extra cost", but c'mon. you'd need some seriously good materials that to handle anything over typical human max in a typical human city. guess you'd have better odds in a metropolis. or you could Gather Info to find the archetyal "old wise master" that makes super weapons of 'x' variety on ancient mountain for thousands of years. hammy, i know, but a plot hook nonetheless. Easiest way is to find a midling-high wizard or sorcerer and have them limited wish (it'd make sense to do it, wish says it can do it in the base description) into existance. It'll cost ye a base of 2410gp, then, depending on the DM, they might make ye pay more. Then you don't have to go about finding the stuff, nor finding someone skilled enough to make it.
Kernath 11-18-07, 10:20 AM	Limited wish might work. When a limited wish spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 1,000 gp, you must provide that component. Since limited wish can duplicate fabricate (even if the caster has been so silly as to prohibit transmutation), and the base materials are technically part of the material component (they're also the target, but we're wishing here, we can stretch the effect ever so slightly), you could wish for a non-magical item worth up to 3,000 gp. That's a composite longbow rated for a strength bonus of up to +26. If your strength is that high, though, you should really consider grabbing some returning javelins and taking the Brutal Throw feat.
risner 11-18-07, 02:03 PM	Limited wish might work. you could wish for a non-magical item worth up to 3,000 gp. And 3,000/3 = 1,000 gp worth of something disappears from your possessions (since fabricate still requires you pay the raw materials cost in something.)
1 ton ghost 11-18-07, 02:09 PM	That is the implicit assumption underlying dnd - cities have wealth guidelines of their own, it is assumed that players be allowed to access whatever they want within these limits. DnD is pretty much a wargame to start with, towns are just a transition area where they sell off unwanted loot and restock what they need before entering the next dungeon.:) i know, it's just retarded. just assuming price guidlelines by city size vs. gold and all is incredibly foolish and unrealistic. that is to say, everything that isn't "off the rack" or commonplace should have a Gather Info DC to find it. most other RPGs express a system of scoring paralegal/rare stuff, etc. PC shouldn't be allowed to access whatever they want just cuz' they have the money. actually this is a problem w/ today's kids anyway, but i digress. inevitably, someone, somewhere will want something that will upset game balance and the DM will say "no" despite it "being available" and so forth. just pouring more $ only into the game makes it more mechanical and is killing the majesty of RP and, ironically, realism. i mean, i would love to have a .50 cal rifle, and technically, it's legal, i just gotta' find it, not just have the $. just encouraging more +'s and -'s which, IMO, is stagnating an otherwise compelling session. and i gotta' disagree w/ you on the wargame part. an opinion, nothing more.
runestar 11-18-07, 09:41 PM	That is because dnd never intended to fully replicate real life economics, and simply wanted an intuitive and straightforward market system that would facilitate transition from 1 dungeon and the next, without bogging everything down into petty technicalities. This has nothing to do with real-life economics. Think of the merchant system in games like BG2 or Diablo. The purpose is something similar, because players should be slaying beasts, not playing accountants and ledgers.:P
WebJiCi 11-18-07, 10:02 PM	The bone bow from Frostburn adds your STR modifier with the proper proficiency feat.
1 ton ghost 11-19-07, 01:00 PM	That is because dnd never intended to fully replicate real life economics, and simply wanted an intuitive and straightforward market system that would facilitate transition from 1 dungeon and the next, without bogging everything down into petty technicalities. This has nothing to do with real-life economics. Think of the merchant system in games like BG2 or Diablo. The purpose is something similar, because players should be slaying beasts, not playing accountants and ledgers.:P i hardly call ruling for 1 Gather Info roll to locate an adequate supplier petty or bogging one down in mechanics. well, maybe if the players are young kids or mentally handicapped, but to each his own. if this isn't "streamlined enough for the masses", screw 'em, no one said they have to use it. rule 0 and all that. freedom of choice for others. i'm w/ the later... no one is tyring to replicate anything. striving for a bit of realism w/ a simple roll of one's dice does not seem like a huge deviation. simply assuming that you can afford item 'x' and then it's available does. and i don't pplay BG2/Diablo. if it's an RPG, it's gonna' be pen/paper always. just my preference i suppose.
Kernath 11-19-07, 05:19 PM	And 3,000/3 = 1,000 gp worth of something disappears from your possessions (since fabricate still requires you pay the raw materials cost in something.) Where on earth does it say that? Fabricate requires that you PROVIDE the materials necessary to make the item. It says nothing about paying for anything.
risner 11-19-07, 08:15 PM	Where on earth does it say that? Fabricate requires that you PROVIDE the materials necessary to make the item. It says nothing about paying for anything. Fabricate requires you to provide the raw materials for the Craft check. If you are making a 3,000 gp item, that is 3,000/3 or 1,000 gp worth of raw materials. Fabricate can use any 1,000 gp of raw materials you would like, but it still uses the raw materials and no the two daggers worth much less in raw materials when melted don't cover the cost.
Kernath 11-20-07, 10:27 AM	What "two daggers"? Limited wish provides up to 1,000 gp of materials for duplicated spells. I don't see how that makes random items in your pack disappear.
risner 11-20-07, 12:10 PM	What "two daggers"? Limited wish provides up to 1,000 gp of materials for duplicated spells. I don't see how that makes random items in your pack disappear. So you use limited wish for a fabricate? Fine, you got 1,000 gp to make that 3,000 gp item. But if you simply cast Fabricate without Limited Wish, you need the scenario I lay out below. Am I failing to make my point or are you trying to be funny? My point is that fabricate only provides you an instantaneous Craft (one that doesn't take weeks to do), but you still must obey all the Craft rules. You need to pay all the raw materials cost for the check. If you have a lot of raw metal, you can make a number of swords equal to the value of the iron * 3. The key point is the number of pounds of iron will be more than the number of pounds of the final product. Longsword are worth 15 gp and weight 4 lbs. To make one Longsword you need 15/3 gp worth of Iron (5 gp.) Iron is worth 1 sp a pound, so 50 pounds of iron is needed to make one 4 pound Longsword.
Tony Vargas 11-20-07, 01:17 PM	There's no rule on it, but it wouldn't hurt to set a maximum. Short bows only go up to +2, for instance, while long go up to +4. That at least implies a limit. Placing such a limit would encourage archers to focus on thier DEX, rather than try to boost thier strength a great deal, and make Weapon Specialization attractive for them. If you think it's more apealing to have super-dexterous Legolas types as archers, and super-strong types eschewing the bow in favor of melee and thrown weapons, then it'd be a good idea. If you don't mind even the most committed archer being muscle-bound, and even the most melee oriented super-strong characters having a bow for ranged combat, then don't worry about it.
jaelis 11-20-07, 03:35 PM	i hardly call ruling for 1 Gather Info roll to locate an adequate supplier petty or bogging one down in mechanics. well, maybe if the players are young kids or mentally handicapped, but to each his own. if this isn't "streamlined enough for the masses", screw 'em, no one said they have to use it. rule 0 and all that. freedom of choice for others. i'm w/ the later... no one is tyring to replicate anything. striving for a bit of realism w/ a simple roll of one's dice does not seem like a huge deviation. simply assuming that you can afford item 'x' and then it's available does. and i don't pplay BG2/Diablo. if it's an RPG, it's gonna' be pen/paper always. just my preference i suppose. I think the point is that if your characters are at a level where they can afford expensive things like bows with +50 Str ratings, then they should be hanging out in places where it is reasonable to buy expensive things. Making them roll a GI check for weird stuff is cool, but making the DC difficult to reach isn't much fun. The 3.5 treasure system is tied to character level, and if you don't let characters buy level-appropriate goods, then the system isn't going to work right.
Kernath 11-22-07, 02:49 PM	Am I failing to make my point or are you trying to be funny? I think you're failing to realize that you haven't stated your point up until now. http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14366212&postcount=12 You directly quoted me stating that limited wish would work, then invented some cockamamie idea that 1,000 gp worth of random stuff would just up and disappear from your inventory because "fabricate still requires you pay the raw materials cost in something." You can stop taking offense at the fact that I'm not a telepath now.
Merlin-Karameikos 11-25-07, 08:46 PM	Is there a maximum to the amount of STR damage you can get with a composite bow? The description talks about a +4 bonus, but no where does it say that that's the max. So can I get a +10, +20, +100 or whatever my strength and bank account allows? I think you might want to re-read the PHB again, specifically the Equipment section. In it under the description for Composite Bow(wether long or short) it says you can get a composite bow that will allow you to use your complete Strength Rating(the +1, 2 or whatever) to your damage. But getting one that is higher than your strength rating does you no good, this is because you then take a -2 to your Attack Roll because you are unable to effectively use the bow. But yes, there is no maxiumum to the Strength rating you can get for a Composite Bow. Just remember, getting one with too high a rating will be detremental to your PC I also should mention that if your PC is making this bow, or he is having it made for him, it will take a wizard of three times the strength rating, just as if you were making a weapon with a +1 or +3. So if you want a bow with a +20 Strength rating you need to find a wizard who is at least level 60.
Kitep 11-25-07, 10:42 PM	But getting one that is higher than your strength rating does you no good, this is because you then take a -2 to your Attack Roll because you are unable to effectively use the bow. Ah, but that was one of the reasons for my asking. It's only -2 if it's 1 point over my STR or 100 points over my STR. I'm surprised they didn't make it -2 per point, but they didn't (AFAIK) I also should mention that if your PC is making this bow, or he is having it made for him, it will take a wizard of three times the strength rating Where can I find this rule? (It's not that I doubt you, I just like to see things for myself)
Kernath 11-27-07, 04:38 PM	Ah, but that was one of the reasons for my asking. It's only -2 if it's 1 point over my STR or 100 points over my STR. I'm surprised they didn't make it -2 per point, but they didn't (AFAIK) You've got that right. Keep in mind that the bow doesn't grant the bonus to damage itself, you still need the appropriate strength rating to actually add any damage. So, if your bow is stronger than you are, you take a -2 to hit for no additional benefit. Where can I find this rule? (It's not that I doubt you, I just like to see things for myself) I'm with you on this one. Making a magically enhanced weapon requires a crafter with caster level equal to or higher than 3 times the enhancement bonus, but there's no reason why a 6-strength kobold couldn't make a composite bow for a cloud giant.
dman11235 11-27-07, 06:32 PM	Yeah, there is no rule anywhere that I know of about the 3x strength rating. That's only for magic stuffs. As long as you make the craft DC (which would be high) you're fine.
jaelis 11-27-07, 08:12 PM	I also should mention that if your PC is making this bow, or he is having it made for him, it will take a wizard of three times the strength rating, just as if you were making a weapon with a +1 or +3. So if you want a bow with a +20 Strength rating you need to find a wizard who is at least level 60. Actually, it doesn't take a wizard at all, just a good craftsman.
Mirannan 11-28-07, 01:44 PM	There is a small problem here, with trying to be realistic. I think that something up to +4 mighty (a bow made for maximum normal human strength) ought to be reasonably easy but get harder for each plus after that. This is because of basic stuff like strength of materials. A +4 mighty bow might have a 200lb. pull; a +8 might have something like 1000lb. For one thing, how are you going to make a bowstring that will take half a ton of pull, and how are you going to get arrows that won't just shatter when you try to fire them? For that matter, how are you going to make a bow (made from wood and horn, most likely) that won't also break? For those reasons, I think that the greater the bonus the more exotic the materials you are going to need. For a +8 bow, maybe the entire thing (string included) needs to be made of mithril, using maybe steel arrows with thin metal flights. Another point here has already been made - using the bow long term. There is already a built-in penalty for using too much bow, but it isn't severe enough. Stringing a bow takes a fair amount of force, and for a normal-strength human to string a +4 bow is likely going to be just about impossible. And as anyone who's actually used a bow will tell you, leaving the bow strung for long periods of time doesn't cut it either; leaving it strung for a day will likely ruin it, especially in the wet. This is because of creep; simply stated, wood gradually deforms under stress - that's why the rooflines of old buildings aren't straight. In short, no problems up to maybe +4 or +5; then after that you need either exotic (and expensive) or magically enhanced materials. And no fair your 12 strength elf trying to use Odysseus's bow! However, this whole subject is a prime candidate for rule 0.
CryoSilver 11-28-07, 02:08 PM	But magic is widely available anyways, so it wouldn't be much f a problem.