composite longbow [Archive] - Wizards Community

composite longbow [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
capeMyrmidon
08-01-06, 06:17 PM I have one little issue with the composite longbow, its description. there is no was the bow could be made with horn or bone. i know short bows were made that way by the asians, but close to six feet of similar construction would make the bow useless.
Wolf72
08-01-06, 09:47 PM iirc composite longbows were shorter than longbows
Watchman
08-02-06, 04:58 AM "Composite longbow" is very much an oxymoron, true enough. Composite bows were usually about a meter tall, tops, and due to their construction did not particularly need to be larger to be more powerful. Steppe nomads and other avid users typically carried them in belt cases, and often a couple of unstrung spares to boot. Pretty much the ultimate horseman's ranged weapon before firearms, and for a while after too.

Longbows are that long because being made of one piece of wood the only real way they can add power is to lenghten the "levers" of the bow-arms. Unsurprisingly this quickly makes them way too large to be used on horseback (allthough it wasn't rare for longbowmen to ride horses, that made them mounted infantry archers - proto-dragoons really - instead of true horse-archers), although the Japanese found a way around that with their asymmetrical daikyus. But then those were AFAIK built up from strips of bamboo, not single pieces of wood. (Side note: during their 1590s Korean excursion the Japanese thought the composite bows of the Koreans were much better than their own longbows - the same presumably goes for the bows used by the Sino-Mongol and Korean troops during the abortive invasions by the Yuan in the 1300s.)

Although in all fairness somewhat larger composite bows were made for infantry use in Central Asia and presumably elsewhere too, odds are that's not why there's two sizes of Composite Bow in the rules.

IMHO you can (and should) just ignore the existence of the Composite Longbow and aside from the size and such substitute its statline for that of the Composite Shortbow, but YMMV. The current statline of the latter could be used to represent earlier, not yet fully evolved designs (such as the ones used during the "chariot age") later superceded by more powerful ones such as the "Hunnic" or the penultimate "Turkish" types.
Gworraent
08-02-06, 12:59 PM You can have a composite longbow. By standard english definition no, but by archery terms yes. By composite, they actually mean recurve. Also, longbows of any type should not be fired on horseback without incuring penalties.
capeMyrmidon
08-02-06, 03:05 PM for me it was just the description of the bow that frustrated me, in the way that a bow of that size cannot be made of horn and bone, laminated wood yes. i'm just nit picking at the topic i still use the bow in my game.
Watchman
08-02-06, 06:15 PM With medieval materials any meaningful amount of recurve in a bow pretty much by definition needs a composite construction - horn, wood and sinew. The main obstacle in building a longbow-sized composite bow (aside from the pointlessness of the exercise - the whole point of reflex bows is that they don't have to be large to be powerful) I can think would actually be the difficulty in finding strips of horn long enough. AFAIK one reason Europeans (aside from some Mediterranean regions) didn't use composite bows (not counting the composite-stave crossbows, which were built quite differently) was the blunt fact they had no suitably long-horned cattle to produce this vital component. Roman military archery did make use of composite bows, but then again they had firm footholds in traditional composite-bow areas in the Middle East and apparently raised many of their auxiliary archer units from there too.
Roxlimn
08-03-06, 01:37 PM Technically, the infantry archers of Northern China and later Han China used larger versions of composite longbows because they could. I think that the longer draw distance impacted armor penetration at longer ranges, although I could be mistaken on that. The typically shorter Mongol bow could be equally powerful on draw-weight, but because of the short throw, produced a projectile of surpassing impulse on the short range, but less dangerous on the longer ranges.
Watchman
08-03-06, 04:24 PM All I know is that composite bow design was an art unto itself. Among other things the assorted militaqry history books I've read have mentioned that for example the angle and lenght the siha (the small "levers" of horn at the ends of the bow-arms), the specific angles of the recurve, the lenght and mode of the actual draw (the exact effects of the "Mongolian" thumb-draw being different depending on if a thumb-ring was used and the details of how the fingers were used, and the three-finger "Persian" draw having still different dynamics), specifics of the arrow used (at least in Middle East tubular arrow-guides were sometimes used to shoot short heavy darts not unlike crossbow bolts in performance for example) and a whole lot of other little details mattered a rather lot to just what actually happened to the guy who was (hopefully) hit with the arrow.

That infantry archers used composite bows larger than was the norm amongst the cavalry certainly suggests there was some value in such a design; it is however a rather different question if the distinction in either size or practical performance was major enough to be noteworthy in the rather abstract D&D terms, which recognize no meaningful difference between the somewhat primitive composite bows used by Middle Eastern chariot warriors towards the end of the Bronze Age and the refined-to-perfection designs the Ottomans had developed towards the end of Middle Ages almost two thousand years later.
MistWolf
08-05-06, 01:58 PM Calling the Composite bow in D&D "Long" doesn't make it a 6 footer. It simply makes it longer than the short composite bow. The "6 foot composite bow" in D&D would be the Great Composite Bow.

Short bows of any type, whether it's a self bow (this is the category the traditional welsh long bow falls into, as well as the short bow of the American Indian- both being carved from a sigle piece), composite bow or compound bow, have a steeper string angle than their longer bretheren. This pinches the fingers more and your release becomes much more critical. Shorter bows are less forgiving. Slight errors in form and imperfect releases have a greater affect on accuracy.

The limbs also have to flex more in shorter bows to achieve the same draw length. That means they have to relax faster to launch the same arow at the same velocity. Arrow weight affects velocity more than with a longer bow.

Composite bow do not have to be recurves. They can be straight bows. Composite bows, or laminated bows, made correctly can launch arrows at a faster velocity for the same draw weight than self bows as the limbs can be made to relax faster. Adding a working recurve tip again increases velocity as the limb relaxes faster.

Longer limbed bows are more effective at launching heavier arrows. This is where the long bow design excells. Matter of fact, the welsh design longbow is most effecient when launching heavy arrows which carry the greater mass needed for deep penetration

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
capeMyrmidon 08-01-06, 06:17 PM	I have one little issue with the composite longbow, its description. there is no was the bow could be made with horn or bone. i know short bows were made that way by the asians, but close to six feet of similar construction would make the bow useless.
Wolf72 08-01-06, 09:47 PM	iirc composite longbows were shorter than longbows
Watchman 08-02-06, 04:58 AM	"Composite longbow" is very much an oxymoron, true enough. Composite bows were usually about a meter tall, tops, and due to their construction did not particularly need to be larger to be more powerful. Steppe nomads and other avid users typically carried them in belt cases, and often a couple of unstrung spares to boot. Pretty much the ultimate horseman's ranged weapon before firearms, and for a while after too. Longbows are that long because being made of one piece of wood the only real way they can add power is to lenghten the "levers" of the bow-arms. Unsurprisingly this quickly makes them way too large to be used on horseback (allthough it wasn't rare for longbowmen to ride horses, that made them mounted infantry archers - proto-dragoons really - instead of true horse-archers), although the Japanese found a way around that with their asymmetrical daikyus. But then those were AFAIK built up from strips of bamboo, not single pieces of wood. (Side note: during their 1590s Korean excursion the Japanese thought the composite bows of the Koreans were much better than their own longbows - the same presumably goes for the bows used by the Sino-Mongol and Korean troops during the abortive invasions by the Yuan in the 1300s.) Although in all fairness somewhat larger composite bows were made for infantry use in Central Asia and presumably elsewhere too, odds are that's not why there's two sizes of Composite Bow in the rules. IMHO you can (and should) just ignore the existence of the Composite Longbow and aside from the size and such substitute its statline for that of the Composite Shortbow, but YMMV. The current statline of the latter could be used to represent earlier, not yet fully evolved designs (such as the ones used during the "chariot age") later superceded by more powerful ones such as the "Hunnic" or the penultimate "Turkish" types.
Gworraent 08-02-06, 12:59 PM	You can have a composite longbow. By standard english definition no, but by archery terms yes. By composite, they actually mean recurve. Also, longbows of any type should not be fired on horseback without incuring penalties.
capeMyrmidon 08-02-06, 03:05 PM	for me it was just the description of the bow that frustrated me, in the way that a bow of that size cannot be made of horn and bone, laminated wood yes. i'm just nit picking at the topic i still use the bow in my game.
Watchman 08-02-06, 06:15 PM	With medieval materials any meaningful amount of recurve in a bow pretty much by definition needs a composite construction - horn, wood and sinew. The main obstacle in building a longbow-sized composite bow (aside from the pointlessness of the exercise - the whole point of reflex bows is that they don't have to be large to be powerful) I can think would actually be the difficulty in finding strips of horn long enough. AFAIK one reason Europeans (aside from some Mediterranean regions) didn't use composite bows (not counting the composite-stave crossbows, which were built quite differently) was the blunt fact they had no suitably long-horned cattle to produce this vital component. Roman military archery did make use of composite bows, but then again they had firm footholds in traditional composite-bow areas in the Middle East and apparently raised many of their auxiliary archer units from there too.
Roxlimn 08-03-06, 01:37 PM	Technically, the infantry archers of Northern China and later Han China used larger versions of composite longbows because they could. I think that the longer draw distance impacted armor penetration at longer ranges, although I could be mistaken on that. The typically shorter Mongol bow could be equally powerful on draw-weight, but because of the short throw, produced a projectile of surpassing impulse on the short range, but less dangerous on the longer ranges.
Watchman 08-03-06, 04:24 PM	All I know is that composite bow design was an art unto itself. Among other things the assorted militaqry history books I've read have mentioned that for example the angle and lenght the siha (the small "levers" of horn at the ends of the bow-arms), the specific angles of the recurve, the lenght and mode of the actual draw (the exact effects of the "Mongolian" thumb-draw being different depending on if a thumb-ring was used and the details of how the fingers were used, and the three-finger "Persian" draw having still different dynamics), specifics of the arrow used (at least in Middle East tubular arrow-guides were sometimes used to shoot short heavy darts not unlike crossbow bolts in performance for example) and a whole lot of other little details mattered a rather lot to just what actually happened to the guy who was (hopefully) hit with the arrow. That infantry archers used composite bows larger than was the norm amongst the cavalry certainly suggests there was some value in such a design; it is however a rather different question if the distinction in either size or practical performance was major enough to be noteworthy in the rather abstract D&D terms, which recognize no meaningful difference between the somewhat primitive composite bows used by Middle Eastern chariot warriors towards the end of the Bronze Age and the refined-to-perfection designs the Ottomans had developed towards the end of Middle Ages almost two thousand years later.
MistWolf 08-05-06, 01:58 PM	Calling the Composite bow in D&D "Long" doesn't make it a 6 footer. It simply makes it longer than the short composite bow. The "6 foot composite bow" in D&D would be the Great Composite Bow. Short bows of any type, whether it's a self bow (this is the category the traditional welsh long bow falls into, as well as the short bow of the American Indian- both being carved from a sigle piece), composite bow or compound bow, have a steeper string angle than their longer bretheren. This pinches the fingers more and your release becomes much more critical. Shorter bows are less forgiving. Slight errors in form and imperfect releases have a greater affect on accuracy. The limbs also have to flex more in shorter bows to achieve the same draw length. That means they have to relax faster to launch the same arow at the same velocity. Arrow weight affects velocity more than with a longer bow. Composite bow do not have to be recurves. They can be straight bows. Composite bows, or laminated bows, made correctly can launch arrows at a faster velocity for the same draw weight than self bows as the limbs can be made to relax faster. Adding a working recurve tip again increases velocity as the limb relaxes faster. Longer limbed bows are more effective at launching heavier arrows. This is where the long bow design excells. Matter of fact, the welsh design longbow is most effecient when launching heavy arrows which carry the greater mass needed for deep penetration