Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wids 09-30-07, 10:51 PM	hey, just a quick question: is there any limit on the strength bonus you can get for a composite longbow? ie can you have a +12 composite longbow that does 1d8 + 12 (and obviously can only be weilded by a character with strength 34...) cheers
SALDAR 09-30-07, 11:53 PM	There is no limit beyond your coin purse.
InkBlot 10-01-07, 12:42 AM	can you have a +12 composite longbow that does 1d8 + 12 (and obviously can only be weilded by a character with strength 34...) The sample Storm Giant in the Monster Manual wields a composite longbow with a +14 strength rating. A bow so mighty that only the strongest man in the world can draw it is the stuff of myths and legends. In other words, perfect for D&D.
deathbane 10-01-07, 02:52 AM	I was told that each size category above medium allowed 4* more to the bow's str, but I can't find it(not that I tried to hard), however I am about to take my DM shoes off, and put my PC shoes on, and part of me does not want to find it. This is going to be helpful info. thanks *before my DM days
InkBlot 10-01-07, 10:08 AM	There's no such rule. Maybe there was in an older edition.
Aryxbez 10-08-07, 04:34 AM	That was back in 3.0, when you could only have a +4 str, I truly do like being limited, which is why I disliked the way skills are done in 3.0 D&D. However as your bow gets bigger str, eventually probably have to get it made of metal and what not. As wood/ivory/bone can only support so much.
Dracomorph 10-08-07, 04:38 AM	Eventually, outrageous strength bonuses drive a world economy based on manufacturing Adamantine longbows! Yes.
SALDAR 10-08-07, 02:33 PM	However as your bow gets bigger str, eventually probably have to get it made of metal and what not. As wood/ivory/bone can only support so much. It is not so much the strength of the wood, ivory or bone that determines how much tension it can hold but the glues and resins used on these materials that strengthen them. If you wish to use real world physics as a limitation keep in mind that there are glues designed to hold steel components together during building construction and these glue joints hold even when the steel itself breaks from the tension placed upon it.
AAB 10-08-07, 02:41 PM	A bow so mighty that only the strongest man in the world can draw it is the stuff of myths and legends. In other words, perfect for D&D. Yay Odysseus!
Aryxbez 10-08-07, 02:47 PM	It is not so much the strength of the wood, ivory or bone that determines how much tension it can hold but the glues and resins used on these materials that strengthen them. If you wish to use real world physics as a limitation keep in mind that there are glues designed to hold steel components together during building construction and these glue joints hold even when the steel itself breaks from the tension placed upon it. Really I speak of the tension on the bow itself. Surely a Bow can only take so much before it snaps, I thought it would have to be made of stronger materials so the bow won't break from the tension. Well I'm no Physic expert, so that was my thoughts on it.
Moosh Nailo 10-08-07, 03:00 PM	AAB, I take it you read David Gemmel? Isn't he marvelous?
Windspear 10-08-07, 03:07 PM	AAB, I take it you read David Gemmel? Isn't he marvelous? God, that was the most irrelevant thing I´ve ever seen written! :clap: Anyway, No. There isn´t a limit for STR raitings, but I second the motion that the bow should be made of stronger materials.
sir_argenon 10-08-07, 10:09 PM	what is the rule on IMPROVING a composite mighty bow? for instance, if i'm an archer with an mighty bow for my strength, with magical enchantments..etc.. my strength is 19, and i find a tome that increases it permanently to 23, is there anything that i can do to that exact bow to bring it up to speed, or do i have to start from scratch?
Dracomorph 10-08-07, 10:15 PM	I don't think there is a normal way to improve the strength bonus to damage. You would have to houserule one.
Moosh Nailo 10-09-07, 04:47 PM	How about as a legacy weapon? Have the strength increase be part of the progression of abilities. Not 100% sure that'd work, but worth a try. Yeah, that was kinda off, my bad Windspear. But at least the off topic subject was near the topic. Odysseus is portrayed as being one of the greatest archers of the time, with a bow "no other mortal man could pull" in David Gemmell's works "Lord of the Silver Bow" and "Shield of Thunder."
AAB 10-09-07, 07:20 PM	And also... well, the Odyssey.
InkBlot 10-10-07, 01:39 AM	I think increasing the strength rating of a composite bow falls under the same rules as repairing it. Or at least it should. Odysseus is portrayed as being one of the greatest archers of the time, with a bow "no other mortal man could pull" in David Gemmell's works "Lord of the Silver Bow" and "Shield of Thunder." Please don't credit David Gemmel with that. Odysseus has been a great archer with a bow no other mortal man could pull for several thousand years before David Gemmel was born. It was a major plot point in the Iliad: while he was away at war and presumed dead, Odysseus's wife held an archery competition to ward off suitors. Only a man able to shoot an arrow from Odysseus's bow could marry her. Since she knew no man but her husband could do it, this worked out pretty well. Until one day a mysterious and bedraggled man took up the challenge and shot an arrow straight and true from the bow. Of course, this bedraggled man turned out to be Odysseus with a dire need of a shower.
war_thog 10-10-07, 03:17 AM	It's built into the bow. As inherent as masterwork quality. Pick and choose now laddy so you don't have to start from scratch!!
groveborn 10-10-07, 03:30 AM	If you read the PHB, and note the section of composite bows you'll notice there are no limits placed on it. This means that you can have any rating you like, and there are no rules for making it out of different materials. This is flavor for the game which your DM may decide should he choose. In doing so, he places greater limits than the rules do, and reduces your choices. As for improving the weapon, as there are no rules saying you may, then one can assume you may not. Likewise, since there are no rules stating that you may not, one may assume you may. Realistically though, the bow is made the way it is, and cannot be changed. A composit bow in D&D is made from bone, horn, wood, and a resin. You cannot separate such materials, then reglue them to get a better bow. That being said, it's fantasy. It's up to your DM to break the laws of physics.
Rulebook 10-10-07, 06:38 AM	i love making bows with str ratings only usable by raging barbarians. helps cut back on the "enemy steals your bow and shoots you with it" factor
AAB 10-10-07, 10:43 AM	I think increasing the strength rating of a composite bow falls under the same rules as repairing it. Or at least it should. Please don't credit David Gemmel with that. Odysseus has been a great archer with a bow no other mortal man could pull for several thousand years before David Gemmel was born. It was a major plot point in the Iliad: while he was away at war and presumed dead, Odysseus's wife held an archery competition to ward off suitors. Only a man able to shoot an arrow from Odysseus's bow could marry her. Since she knew no man but her husband could do it, this worked out pretty well. Until one day a mysterious and bedraggled man took up the challenge and shot an arrow straight and true from the bow. Of course, this bedraggled man turned out to be Odysseus with a dire need of a shower. Sorry to drag this aside out even further, but wasn't that part of the Odyssey, not the Iliad?
Cifer 10-10-07, 12:46 PM	Surely a Bow can only take so much before it snaps, I thought it would have to be made of stronger materials so the bow won't break from the tension. Well, guess what all those hundreds of GP you put into the bow mean. @AAB It was.
Someone 10-10-07, 01:41 PM	Of course, this bedraggled man turned out to be Odysseus with a dire need of a shower.Or was he a man in need of a dire shower? :P Ahem. The pull of a composite bow is set upon creation, just like whether its masterwork or not. So, if you wanted more pull, you would have to get a new one made. I might allow the material cost that went into the old one to be recycled into a "down payment" of the cost of the new one, but that's about it. Also, isn't there a magic bow that automatically adjusts its pull based on the Str of its wielder?
InkBlot 10-10-07, 01:49 PM	Sorry to drag this aside out even further, but wasn't that part of the Odyssey, not the Iliad? I'm not sure. Sorry. I just always mix them up, and Iliad is easier to spell.
AAB 10-10-07, 02:48 PM	Yeah, I always try to spell Odyssey with two "d"s, but that's wrong. To keep this thread on track, I would personally allow a +1 value weapon enhancement for "variable pull".
InkBlot 10-10-07, 04:36 PM	Now that you mention it, I think I've seen that somewhere. Maybe it was a weapon crystal from MIC?
MaverickWolf 10-11-07, 12:18 PM	I believe there's one or two elf-only bows that adjust (or maybe merely an updated version of one). I'm not certain where it is. I think there was one in the Arms & Equipment Guide, and there's probably one in Races of the Wild. There's also this: Hank's Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a). I'm not sure of the complete cost breakdown on that, simply because it has numerous unique abilities.
1 ton ghost 10-12-07, 01:59 PM	technically, there's no limit, however my bull$hit detector keeps going off here... -it should be fixed at the point of creation realistically as unmaking it to recreate a higher bonus would compromise weapon integrity. of course, you could argue variable magics (Make Whole, etc.) to augment weaponsmith. ie)plan ahead for static bonuses -there should be a ruling beyond +4 apart from a much higher Craft DC let alone the raw materials capable of allowing such a huge feat of Strength. problem is alot of metal isn't pliable usually, so design given proto-rennaissance fantasy cultures is, um, "limited" to say the least. composite w/ resins and all are not 21st century, so it's a tough nut to crack not to mention finding a badass good enough to make such an exquisite weapon. -someone mentioned a size discrepancy. in terms of physics, that's a bright solution, so nj on that. Great Bow and so forth might afford more realistic options for Med. sized ppl. Dragon mag had an incredibly comprehensive bow/x-bow article on it's last published year: late' '06 or early '07 (elf archer on the cover, namely green tones predominate) -another mentioned a "variable Str" weapon ability as a magic option. nj too. -always could go thrown, especially if your Str is so damned high. Brutal Throw swaps out Dex for Str in terms of this, practical.
Cifer 10-12-07, 07:58 PM	-there should be a ruling beyond +4 apart from a much higher Craft DC let alone the raw materials capable of allowing such a huge feat of Strength. problem is alot of metal isn't pliable usually, so design given proto-rennaissance fantasy cultures is, um, "limited" to say the least. composite w/ resins and all are not 21st century, so it's a tough nut to crack not to mention finding a badass good enough to make such an exquisite weapon. On the other hand, a MW composite bow with a +5 bonus costs 900 gp. Of course it's made of some nonstandard material - Something that costs 300 gp as raw materials for a single long staff, to be precise. Unless forest dieback has massively increased over the past years, that doesn't sound like yew to me anymore. Yes, you'd probably need someone with a little more skill than a level 1 expert, which is already ensured by the Craft DC of 25, taking a bonus of +15 to make reliably and needing 14.5 weeks to accomplish.
Taureus_Drakken 10-12-07, 09:02 PM	Also, isn't there a magic bow that automatically adjusts its pull based on the Str of its wielder? I believe there is a relic that does this...But I am AFB right now, and can't verify. ¬Taureus¬
1 ton ghost 10-12-07, 09:14 PM	On the other hand, a MW composite bow with a +5 bonus costs 900 gp. Of course it's made of some nonstandard material - Something that costs 300 gp as raw materials for a single long staff, to be precise. Unless forest dieback has massively increased over the past years, that doesn't sound like yew to me anymore. Yes, you'd probably need someone with a little more skill than a level 1 expert, which is already ensured by the Craft DC of 25, taking a bonus of +15 to make reliably and needing 14.5 weeks to accomplish. no one is arguing the possibility, i'm just of the opinion that throwing more money at a problem doesn't necessarilly get rid of it realistically. it feels wrong (IMO) that more money just means better materials. well, which ones? i know old racial max (human) was 18 and though @ every 4th lvl there's the bump and all, but even in the PHB it stops at +4 (for bows that is). i'm not saying it should, it shouldn't, i want a +5 for a herculean badass like everyone else here, it's just that seems exceptional and worthy of more consideration/effort/something than just throwing more cash at it. plus finding a crafter again. you set the DC at 25, yes? i don't know, i've not checked it, but i'll take you at face value. most of em' Take 10, right? w/ a Skill Focus and MW Tools and all, he'd still have to be very very good. many times leveled in comparison to other ppl in the service industry in town 'x' not including other adventurer types. that's not going to be easy to find. even if you do other ppl like the ruling sovereign, NPCs, etc. have order they want filled. so maybe you have to wait or pay extra to move up the list. hmm, maybe throwing more money at it is the solution.
Cifer 10-12-07, 10:09 PM	well, which ones? There would be Adenwood, a true classic among bowmakers - bowmakers for ogres and orcish berserkers, that is. There are comparably few trees, found only in heights of at least 1500 feet and generally solitary. Now, Adenwood itself is not that stable, but as every good craftsman knows, it can be hardened somewhat with the bonemarrow of dire wolves, which is why many tribes make hunting a dire wolf into a rite of passage for their youths. It's generally assumed that even harder bows might be built if you substituted the dire wolves for dire elks (yeah, I've always wanted to bring a dire elk into the game!) or even dire bears. What, didn't you know that? most of em' Take 10, right? w/ a Skill Focus and MW Tools and all, he'd still have to be very very good. many times leveled in comparison to other ppl in the service industry in town 'x' not including other adventurer types. You could get a 25 when you've got someone taking ten (10) with a skill focus (+3), an apprentice (aid another for +2), masterwork tools (+2), a guidance spell provided by their local adept (+1), some intelligence (+2) and about 5 ranks. In Eberron, there's also the Level-1-Spell Magecraft to be taken into account: A flat +5 bonus to the check, enabling bows with 2,5 points higher strength than usual to be built.
FrostWolf 10-13-07, 04:21 AM	Hmm... Why not have a little side quest to get the stuff to make it? You need resins:Trent sap and a flask of that magical glue stuff. Materials: The bones or horns of some rather strong, earth based animal. Like the horns of a dire ram that is part earth elemental. The String: The sinews (did I spell that right?) of a troll (or something that regenerates). Not only would it give you a break from the campagin, but it might give the othe players the idea to also craft special weapons of their own.
1 ton ghost 10-13-07, 12:26 PM	Hmm... Why not have a little side quest to get the stuff to make it? You need resins:Trent sap and a flask of that magical glue stuff. Materials: The bones or horns of some rather strong, earth based animal. Like the horns of a dire ram that is part earth elemental. The String: The sinews (did I spell that right?) of a troll (or something that regenerates). Not only would it give you a break from the campagin, but it might give the othe players the idea to also craft special weapons of their own. that is good thinking and/or RPing. well said, really. way to throw your DM a bone. we've used this mentality before for a million reasons, typically financial. often under the pretext of assistance for Item Creation, the magical variety that is. we cannibalized some text from other books, 1st ed DMG, Unearthed Arcana's recommended CL buff sections, etc. to guesstimate raw materials for a great many magical goodies. that is, using relevant Gather Infos, various Knowledge (Nature & Arcana typically) checks, Survival and the like, we were able to find, appraise, and gather up said materials. basically, depending on the success of the hunt and calibre of the goods, we'd consider it a % off of the item creation raw materials. -basically, most spell FX/items were easilly broken down by their material component listing as per spell. ie)particularly rare sulphur for a Fireball scroll might shave off 33% (a guess, find your own system) depending on success of rolls leaving you 66% left acrued in special ink, papers, Acme mystic circle paint and bla bla bla. a giant eagle's feather might help to constuct a sight based buff or something that enables Fly. -weapons and armor were no different. harvesting darkwood, admittedly, not super rare, is a pain in the ass when you're drawing missle fire from sylvan types that are upset you're cutting down another special tree. not fun, but the money you save can be used to get some sweet ass revenge...and XP as for this hypothetical superbow, i guess this is where you'd have to hip shoot. they only describe mechanics of said weapons in PHB, not contruction and so on, so it's DM's discretion i guess. your suggestion of dire ram horns, troll gut sinew, and the like are smart deductions and fit well. wtf is Adenwood though?
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 10-14-07, 02:46 PM	As wood/ivory/bone can only support so much. Which just so happens to be an enormous amount. Bone is stronger than steel on the vertical plane.
Decinious 10-14-07, 05:39 PM	With modern bows with pulleys and what not can you not adjust the pull of a bow? So we get a Tinker Gnome to build us a bow that you can adjust the pull of... say 3x the price of the max pull of the bow?
Holy_Beholder 10-14-07, 07:31 PM	Please don't credit David Gemmel with that. Odysseus has been a great archer with a bow no other mortal man could pull for several thousand years before David Gemmel was born. It was a major plot point in the Iliad Actually it was in the odyssey. The suitors failed one by one, then Odysseus strings it, shoots through the axes, and kills them all.(along with Telemachus and a few slaves and servants) Although Telemachus almost pulls it, then holds back, so by the end of the Odyssey, Telemachus can pull it too. I read it recently, so I have it clear in my mind right now/
Cifer 10-15-07, 09:06 AM	With modern bows with pulleys and what not can you not adjust the pull of a bow? So we get a Tinker Gnome to build us a bow that you can adjust the pull of... say 3x the price of the max pull of the bow? What for? There's no penalty for shooting with a Composite bow with too high strength. Otherwise, characters with rapidly changing strength scores (Barbarian Rage, Bull's Strength) would have real problems.
Decinious 10-15-07, 10:43 AM	SRD refutes that... Longbow, Composite: You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while mounted. All composite bows are made with a particular strength rating (that is, each requires a minimum Strength modifier to use with proficiency). If your Strength bonus is less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can’t effectively use it, so you take a –2 penalty on attacks with it. The default composite longbow requires a Strength modifier of +0 or higher to use with proficiency. A composite longbow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow. Each point of Strength bonus granted by the bow adds 100 gp to its cost. For purposes of weapon proficiency and similar feats, a composite longbow is treated as if it were a longbow.
InkBlot 10-15-07, 07:23 PM	Cifer was refering to characters who are stronger than their bows are, I believe. For example, a Barbarian with strength modifier of +5 doesn't take a penalty for using a bow with a strength rating of +3.