Con Damage--Need a good ruling [Archive] - Wizards Community

Con Damage--Need a good ruling [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
electrosis
08-31-04, 09:14 AM Okay last night in my gaming session this came up and where I thought the way I had always run things was right my players pointed out something that perhaps I had missed. Here is what had happened I had attacked his barbarian with a Blade Golem. I did the normal 42 damage from both attacks but the weapons on his hands had wounding so I the barbarian then took two points of con damage. At this point I said you lose 15 hp, lvl 15 barbarian, from the con damage. Big argument started. They claim that the con damage only effects max hp. So now the Barbarians max hp was 185 and since she had taken 42 points of damage and was at 158 hp which is below the new max hp she doesnt lose any more hp from con damage.

The page they used as refrence was 190 from the DMG.
The_Ditto
08-31-04, 09:21 AM Okay last night in my gaming session this came up and where I thought the way I had always run things was right my players pointed out something that perhaps I had missed. Here is what had happened I had attacked his barbarian with a Blade Golem. I did the normal 42 damage from both attacks but the weapons on his hands had wounding so I the barbarian then took two points of con damage. At this point I said you lose 15 hp, lvl 15 barbarian, from the con damage. Big argument started. They claim that the con damage only effects max hp. So now the Barbarians max hp was 185 and since she had taken 42 points of damage and was at 158 hp which is below the new max hp she doesnt lose any more hp from con damage.

The page they used as refrence was 190 from the DMG.

Your characters are cheesing you .. here's the relevant reference .. from the SRD (or from PHB ..)

ABILITY SCORE LOSS
Various attacks cause ability score loss, either ability damage or ability drain. Points lost to ability damage return at the rate of 1 point per day (or double that if the character gets complete bed rest) to each damaged ability, and the spells lesser restoration and restoration offset ability damage as well. Ability drain, however, is permanent, though restoration can restore even those lost ability score points.
While any loss is debilitating, losing all points in an ability score can be devastating.
• Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground.
• Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.
• Constitution 0 means that the character is dead.
• Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless.
• Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless.
• Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless.
Keeping track of negative ability score points is never necessary. A character’s ability score can’t drop below 0.
Having a score of 0 in an ability is different from having no ability score whatsoever.
Some spells or abilities impose an effective ability score reduction, which is different from ability score loss. Any such reduction disappears at the end of the spell’s or ability’s duration, and the ability score immediately returns to its former value.
If a character’s Constitution score drops, then he loses 1 hit point per Hit Die for every point by which his Constitution modifier drops. A hit point score can’t be reduced by Constitution damage or drain to less than 1 hit point per Hit Die.
The ability that some creatures have to drain ability scores is a supernatural one, requiring some sort of attack. Such creatures do not drain abilities from enemies when the enemies strike them, even with unarmed attacks or natural weapons.

Ask them this: If the cleric casts Bear's Endurance on them, and they gain +4 Con, do they just adjust their Max HP? And then have to heal up to it?? Or does it also raise their current HP ??
:smirk:

The easy way to see the effects of all this is to actually track damage properly:

Max HP = X
Current Damage = Y
Current Non-Lethal Damage = Z
Current HP = X - Y

Therefore, if their Max HP change, then they also change their current HP ..

After all, by their rules, if they had 150 Max Hp .. at level 15, and took 5 damage and 2 Con dmg ... they'd have 135 MAX HP, and 145 current HP ..
:uh-huh:

Silly, isn't it??
:tiphat:
FriendoftheDork
08-31-04, 09:31 AM it's much easier if you look at it from this angle:

lvl 15 Barbarian has 185 hp. barbarian takes 42 damage and loses 2 con. barbarian has 160 hp and 42 damage. Thus barbarian has 118 hp remaining!

Ak the players to keep track of damage and max hp seperatly, in addition to current hp.
electrosis
08-31-04, 09:48 AM So in effect all its changing is the Max HP but the damage is calculated on a scale going up so when they reach the max hp in damage then they would be dead. Hopefully I can show them the error of their ways.
FriendoftheDork
08-31-04, 09:57 AM well, when their damage equals their max hp they are limited to partial actionsand streneous activity will cause them to be dying. Death occurs when damage is 10 more than max hp.
electrosis
08-31-04, 10:12 AM Well yah thats what I meant.
The_Ditto
08-31-04, 10:17 AM So in effect all its changing is the Max HP but the damage is calculated on a scale going up so when they reach the max hp in damage then they would be dead. Hopefully I can show them the error of their ways.

Just ask your players the questions I posed ... you'll be amused at their answers .. hehe

1) What happens when you're at max hp, and get a Bear's Endurance spell cast on you? Do you have to heal up to the new max hp?

2) What happens when you at 15th level and lose 2 Con, but you only have 5 damage? Is a Con loss another method of healing??
electrosis
08-31-04, 10:23 AM Actually I think the bears endurance or even the barbarian rage will hit the nail on the head. If you con goes up you get those hp if your con goes down you lose them. Should work just fine thanks for turning the light on.
Thorak
08-31-04, 10:47 AM Like others have suggested; don't keep track of your "current hit points". Keep track of your damage taken. Then, you don't adjust your current hit points when you lose Con, you just adjust your max hit points, and notice that this brings your damage closer to that number. The RAW doesn't suggest this, but it is simpler to keep track of in many ways, and perfectly reflects how the system works.
Ranix
08-31-04, 01:34 PM Wounding damage doesn't make you lose con. It makes you bleed, taking 1 point of damage per round for each point of wounding on you. You were probably in the wrong if you made wounding damage affect constitution.

Con loss does affect both max and current hit points, because that is the only thing that makes any sense at all. If I am poisoned at full hp and lose max hp, do I now have more hp than max? This isn't covered in any rulebook ever. I'm not gonna find the exact phrase that says "you lose hit points equal to your hit dice" when you drop a con modifier, but that bit in quotes is probably the exact wording. Look in your DMG.
masterofmayhem
08-31-04, 02:24 PM Wounding damage doesn't make you lose con. It makes you bleed, taking 1 point of damage per round for each point of wounding on you. You were probably in the wrong if you made wounding damage affect constitution.
You're thinking 3.0. 3.5 Wounding does precisely what was stated above. It was changed because WotC thought it was too hard to track the damage (which I could understand if you have a someone throwing 8 wounding daggers a round).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
electrosis 08-31-04, 09:14 AM	Okay last night in my gaming session this came up and where I thought the way I had always run things was right my players pointed out something that perhaps I had missed. Here is what had happened I had attacked his barbarian with a Blade Golem. I did the normal 42 damage from both attacks but the weapons on his hands had wounding so I the barbarian then took two points of con damage. At this point I said you lose 15 hp, lvl 15 barbarian, from the con damage. Big argument started. They claim that the con damage only effects max hp. So now the Barbarians max hp was 185 and since she had taken 42 points of damage and was at 158 hp which is below the new max hp she doesnt lose any more hp from con damage. The page they used as refrence was 190 from the DMG.
The_Ditto 08-31-04, 09:21 AM	Okay last night in my gaming session this came up and where I thought the way I had always run things was right my players pointed out something that perhaps I had missed. Here is what had happened I had attacked his barbarian with a Blade Golem. I did the normal 42 damage from both attacks but the weapons on his hands had wounding so I the barbarian then took two points of con damage. At this point I said you lose 15 hp, lvl 15 barbarian, from the con damage. Big argument started. They claim that the con damage only effects max hp. So now the Barbarians max hp was 185 and since she had taken 42 points of damage and was at 158 hp which is below the new max hp she doesnt lose any more hp from con damage. The page they used as refrence was 190 from the DMG. Your characters are cheesing you .. here's the relevant reference .. from the SRD (or from PHB ..) ABILITY SCORE LOSS Various attacks cause ability score loss, either ability damage or ability drain. Points lost to ability damage return at the rate of 1 point per day (or double that if the character gets complete bed rest) to each damaged ability, and the spells lesser restoration and restoration offset ability damage as well. Ability drain, however, is permanent, though restoration can restore even those lost ability score points. While any loss is debilitating, losing all points in an ability score can be devastating. • Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground. • Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless. • Constitution 0 means that the character is dead. • Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless. • Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless. • Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless. Keeping track of negative ability score points is never necessary. A character’s ability score can’t drop below 0. Having a score of 0 in an ability is different from having no ability score whatsoever. Some spells or abilities impose an effective ability score reduction, which is different from ability score loss. Any such reduction disappears at the end of the spell’s or ability’s duration, and the ability score immediately returns to its former value. If a character’s Constitution score drops, then he loses 1 hit point per Hit Die for every point by which his Constitution modifier drops. A hit point score can’t be reduced by Constitution damage or drain to less than 1 hit point per Hit Die. The ability that some creatures have to drain ability scores is a supernatural one, requiring some sort of attack. Such creatures do not drain abilities from enemies when the enemies strike them, even with unarmed attacks or natural weapons. Ask them this: If the cleric casts Bear's Endurance on them, and they gain +4 Con, do they just adjust their Max HP? And then have to heal up to it?? Or does it also raise their current HP ?? :smirk: The easy way to see the effects of all this is to actually track damage properly: Max HP = X Current Damage = Y Current Non-Lethal Damage = Z Current HP = X - Y Therefore, if their Max HP change, then they also change their current HP .. After all, by their rules, if they had 150 Max Hp .. at level 15, and took 5 damage and 2 Con dmg ... they'd have 135 MAX HP, and 145 current HP .. :uh-huh: Silly, isn't it?? :tiphat:
FriendoftheDork 08-31-04, 09:31 AM	it's much easier if you look at it from this angle: lvl 15 Barbarian has 185 hp. barbarian takes 42 damage and loses 2 con. barbarian has 160 hp and 42 damage. Thus barbarian has 118 hp remaining! Ak the players to keep track of damage and max hp seperatly, in addition to current hp.
electrosis 08-31-04, 09:48 AM	So in effect all its changing is the Max HP but the damage is calculated on a scale going up so when they reach the max hp in damage then they would be dead. Hopefully I can show them the error of their ways.
FriendoftheDork 08-31-04, 09:57 AM	well, when their damage equals their max hp they are limited to partial actionsand streneous activity will cause them to be dying. Death occurs when damage is 10 more than max hp.
electrosis 08-31-04, 10:12 AM	Well yah thats what I meant.
The_Ditto 08-31-04, 10:17 AM	So in effect all its changing is the Max HP but the damage is calculated on a scale going up so when they reach the max hp in damage then they would be dead. Hopefully I can show them the error of their ways. Just ask your players the questions I posed ... you'll be amused at their answers .. hehe 1) What happens when you're at max hp, and get a Bear's Endurance spell cast on you? Do you have to heal up to the new max hp? 2) What happens when you at 15th level and lose 2 Con, but you only have 5 damage? Is a Con loss another method of healing??
electrosis 08-31-04, 10:23 AM	Actually I think the bears endurance or even the barbarian rage will hit the nail on the head. If you con goes up you get those hp if your con goes down you lose them. Should work just fine thanks for turning the light on.
Thorak 08-31-04, 10:47 AM	Like others have suggested; don't keep track of your "current hit points". Keep track of your damage taken. Then, you don't adjust your current hit points when you lose Con, you just adjust your max hit points, and notice that this brings your damage closer to that number. The RAW doesn't suggest this, but it is simpler to keep track of in many ways, and perfectly reflects how the system works.
Ranix 08-31-04, 01:34 PM	Wounding damage doesn't make you lose con. It makes you bleed, taking 1 point of damage per round for each point of wounding on you. You were probably in the wrong if you made wounding damage affect constitution. Con loss does affect both max and current hit points, because that is the only thing that makes any sense at all. If I am poisoned at full hp and lose max hp, do I now have more hp than max? This isn't covered in any rulebook ever. I'm not gonna find the exact phrase that says "you lose hit points equal to your hit dice" when you drop a con modifier, but that bit in quotes is probably the exact wording. Look in your DMG.
masterofmayhem 08-31-04, 02:24 PM	Wounding damage doesn't make you lose con. It makes you bleed, taking 1 point of damage per round for each point of wounding on you. You were probably in the wrong if you made wounding damage affect constitution. You're thinking 3.0. 3.5 Wounding does precisely what was stated above. It was changed because WotC thought it was too hard to track the damage (which I could understand if you have a someone throwing 8 wounding daggers a round).