Concealment and firing a crossbow? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Concealment and firing a crossbow? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Bazcasta
09-14-06, 06:49 PM If I have total concealment (because I am totally hidden in very dense foliage) and then I fire a crossbow at someone's back (i.e. they aren't looking at me, or even for me)... What kind of penalty/bonus do I get on a hide check? I know that there is a -20 penalty to hide after firing a shot, but is this an all the time rule? Used even in the situation described above?

I think that since I have total concealment, and they didn't see the shot (unless they have eyes in the back of their head), shouldn't I then get a bonus on my hide check? Do I even need a hide check?

I'm a little stumped on this.

Thanks
Iver Gearsham
09-14-06, 11:09 PM Total concealment is great but every sniper knows you shoot and scoot for a reason every bolt or arrow is a finger pointing at you or were you shot from.

They may not see you but they will know your in the woods(Or Behind Rocks, Fog) and generaly were you are, Charging and Fireballs Will been done and the enemy will seek to close the distance and engage you.

Be sure it is well traped and deadly ground they must travel to get to you or you need to move faster than they.
Bazcasta
09-15-06, 09:08 AM Okay, I know that a they will know what direction (the woods the bolt/arrow/whatever) came from. So if I have total concealment in a patch of woods that is 20 ft. wide and 30 ft. deep. Now say I fire a bolt from my concealment, then I drop to my hands and knees, and crawl to a new position in some really thick brush. What bonuses/penalties/ anything at all. RAW or houserule or whatever you'd do in that situation.

I'm just curious.

Thanks
Finarin Panjoro
09-15-06, 10:28 AM The terrain would count as heavy undergrowth so you would have a +5 bonus on your hide check according to the DMG. But that's it.

You have to remember that if you've got so much concealment that they can't see you there's a very good chance that you can't see them. To shoot at them you had to move to someplace where you could see them and thus they could see you. This may just mean standing up but it means that when you attack you're more exposed.

So you could snipe from this position and re-hide at a -15 penalty. That's a pretty significant improvement over just having normal concealment and/or cover.
Bazcasta
09-15-06, 10:57 AM Hmm I'll take it how it is, but that doesn't mean I really like it. Say I'm laying in that heavy undergrowth. I know that people are going to come by, so I stay hidden. I listen for them to go by, and then stick out my head, arms and crossbow and shoot (at their backs). I don't like how it is still a -15 to hide. If I shot, and instatly pulled myself back into the undergrowth, and maybe started to crawl back further. I don't get it. Do you think that it is fair how it is?

My reasoning, paintball. I sometimes wear a ghillie suit (http://www.ghilliesuits.com/ProductImages/poncho/PS-woodland_small.jpg) while playing. When I lay down in thick undergrowth. I wait for people to pass me by (usually by going to a spot where I believe they'll come by and listening for them). Then when I do shoot, I try to stay as out of sight as I can. Although this does involve a disguise check. What do you think?
DeSkyggeKriger
09-16-06, 11:41 AM The thing is, I'm pretty sure you can't move at all after attacking. And I'm pretty sure that even if you are standing up in the heavy undergrowth, you'd still get the +5 to Hide. Unless laying Prone gives you a Hide bonus, I don't think anything would change, you'd still take the normal -20 penalty. The only exception would be the -1 to Spot per 10 feet of distance between you and your enemy. Also, lying Prone presents a smaller target, so I would imagine you get the +4 bonus to Hide for "appearing" smaller.

So if you were trying to get a sneak attack, we'll say your enemy is 30 feet away, standing in a clearing. If I were DMing, I would say that the following would apply:

-3 to the enemy's Spot (for being 30 feet away)
+9 to your Hide (for laying prone in the undergrowth)
For a grand total of (essentially) a -8 to your Hide.

I would only allow laying prone after the attack because it counts as a free action, and if you can attempt to hide, why wouldn't you be able to lay down?
Pandaemoni
09-16-06, 05:20 PM Also bear in mind that (unless you are playing with a houserule) there is no facing in this situation. The rules do not allow for you to "shoot him in the back." That's why horses are 10 feet x 10 feet square...the rules assume they are facing every which way at once. (:crazy:)

Your target always spins like an electron, only taking a definite position at the instant you hit him (or rather when the DM describes your hit), then he instantly starts spinning again.
Thorak
09-16-06, 06:10 PM If I have total concealment (because I am totally hidden in very dense foliage) and then I fire a crossbow at someone's back (i.e. they aren't looking at me, or even for me)... What kind of penalty/bonus do I get on a hide check? I know that there is a -20 penalty to hide after firing a shot, but is this an all the time rule? Used even in the situation described above?
If you have total concealment, you don't need to make a Hide check; they can't see you, period. You could be wearing a bright orange jumpsuit, and they wouldn't see you. Total concealment effectively means you're invisible; they might be able to figure out roughly where the shot came from, so sticking around probably isn't smart, but they can't see you directly.

If you just shot a mage, for instance, he could probably Fireball you with some accuracy, because he knows roughly where you are, but he couldn't cast Blindness on you. This was true before the shot, without needing a Hide check, and it will remain true as long as the concealment is total.

If it's anything less than total, however, that's when the sniping rules come into play.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bazcasta 09-14-06, 06:49 PM	If I have total concealment (because I am totally hidden in very dense foliage) and then I fire a crossbow at someone's back (i.e. they aren't looking at me, or even for me)... What kind of penalty/bonus do I get on a hide check? I know that there is a -20 penalty to hide after firing a shot, but is this an all the time rule? Used even in the situation described above? I think that since I have total concealment, and they didn't see the shot (unless they have eyes in the back of their head), shouldn't I then get a bonus on my hide check? Do I even need a hide check? I'm a little stumped on this. Thanks
Iver Gearsham 09-14-06, 11:09 PM	Total concealment is great but every sniper knows you shoot and scoot for a reason every bolt or arrow is a finger pointing at you or were you shot from. They may not see you but they will know your in the woods(Or Behind Rocks, Fog) and generaly were you are, Charging and Fireballs Will been done and the enemy will seek to close the distance and engage you. Be sure it is well traped and deadly ground they must travel to get to you or you need to move faster than they.
Bazcasta 09-15-06, 09:08 AM	Okay, I know that a they will know what direction (the woods the bolt/arrow/whatever) came from. So if I have total concealment in a patch of woods that is 20 ft. wide and 30 ft. deep. Now say I fire a bolt from my concealment, then I drop to my hands and knees, and crawl to a new position in some really thick brush. What bonuses/penalties/ anything at all. RAW or houserule or whatever you'd do in that situation. I'm just curious. Thanks
Finarin Panjoro 09-15-06, 10:28 AM	The terrain would count as heavy undergrowth so you would have a +5 bonus on your hide check according to the DMG. But that's it. You have to remember that if you've got so much concealment that they can't see you there's a very good chance that you can't see them. To shoot at them you had to move to someplace where you could see them and thus they could see you. This may just mean standing up but it means that when you attack you're more exposed. So you could snipe from this position and re-hide at a -15 penalty. That's a pretty significant improvement over just having normal concealment and/or cover.
Bazcasta 09-15-06, 10:57 AM	Hmm I'll take it how it is, but that doesn't mean I really like it. Say I'm laying in that heavy undergrowth. I know that people are going to come by, so I stay hidden. I listen for them to go by, and then stick out my head, arms and crossbow and shoot (at their backs). I don't like how it is still a -15 to hide. If I shot, and instatly pulled myself back into the undergrowth, and maybe started to crawl back further. I don't get it. Do you think that it is fair how it is? My reasoning, paintball. I sometimes wear a ghillie suit (http://www.ghilliesuits.com/ProductImages/poncho/PS-woodland_small.jpg) while playing. When I lay down in thick undergrowth. I wait for people to pass me by (usually by going to a spot where I believe they'll come by and listening for them). Then when I do shoot, I try to stay as out of sight as I can. Although this does involve a disguise check. What do you think?
DeSkyggeKriger 09-16-06, 11:41 AM	The thing is, I'm pretty sure you can't move at all after attacking. And I'm pretty sure that even if you are standing up in the heavy undergrowth, you'd still get the +5 to Hide. Unless laying Prone gives you a Hide bonus, I don't think anything would change, you'd still take the normal -20 penalty. The only exception would be the -1 to Spot per 10 feet of distance between you and your enemy. Also, lying Prone presents a smaller target, so I would imagine you get the +4 bonus to Hide for "appearing" smaller. So if you were trying to get a sneak attack, we'll say your enemy is 30 feet away, standing in a clearing. If I were DMing, I would say that the following would apply: -3 to the enemy's Spot (for being 30 feet away) +9 to your Hide (for laying prone in the undergrowth) For a grand total of (essentially) a -8 to your Hide. I would only allow laying prone after the attack because it counts as a free action, and if you can attempt to hide, why wouldn't you be able to lay down?
Pandaemoni 09-16-06, 05:20 PM	Also bear in mind that (unless you are playing with a houserule) there is no facing in this situation. The rules do not allow for you to "shoot him in the back." That's why horses are 10 feet x 10 feet square...the rules assume they are facing every which way at once. (:crazy:) Your target always spins like an electron, only taking a definite position at the instant you hit him (or rather when the DM describes your hit), then he instantly starts spinning again.
Thorak 09-16-06, 06:10 PM	If I have total concealment (because I am totally hidden in very dense foliage) and then I fire a crossbow at someone's back (i.e. they aren't looking at me, or even for me)... What kind of penalty/bonus do I get on a hide check? I know that there is a -20 penalty to hide after firing a shot, but is this an all the time rule? Used even in the situation described above? If you have total concealment, you don't need to make a Hide check; they can't see you, period. You could be wearing a bright orange jumpsuit, and they wouldn't see you. Total concealment effectively means you're invisible; they might be able to figure out roughly where the shot came from, so sticking around probably isn't smart, but they can't see you directly. If you just shot a mage, for instance, he could probably Fireball you with some accuracy, because he knows roughly where you are, but he couldn't cast Blindness on you. This was true before the shot, without needing a Hide check, and it will remain true as long as the concealment is total. If it's anything less than total, however, that's when the sniping rules come into play.