Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ronyon 09-13-04, 09:33 PM	If a character is caught inside a Cloud that provides total concealment, say in the center of an obscuring mist, is that character considered blind? What about characters looking in? I know they cant target you, and must "guess" which space you are in , in oder to attack, but can they see you? Concealment allows one to make a hide check, but that implies that it doesnt automatically hide you. Finally if it does automatically hide you, are you considered invisible?
Orc Fighter 09-13-04, 09:53 PM	From what I read the character is not blind but has the same restrictions as someone attacking the character inside the fog; that is within 5' you get 20% concealment and beyond that they get a 50% chance. I can't see how it would be different unless either character has something that would negate the fog (blindsight for example). But you would not be invisible. Invisibility makes it that you cannot see the person even if they are within 5' of them (even though you get the same 50/50 miss chance) and it gives the invisible attacker a plus to hit since they cannot see the character at all. In the mist you still can see the person within 5' so it would be hard to say they would be invisible.
ronyon 09-13-04, 10:39 PM	Thanks for the input, now let me refine this... The attacker shoots a bolt at the defender.The defender could be in the center of a full concealment cloud or the attacker could be or both.The attacker has blind sight.Since the defender has no way of seeing the attacker, what is the affect? Two guys in a sealed lightless room, and only one of them with dark vision would work the same way, but what way is that?
Orc Fighter 09-14-04, 09:42 PM	If the attacker has blindsight then the concealment would not apply to him so if he is attacking the defender the defender would be caught flat footed since he could not see where the attack is coming from since the defender cannot see anything past 5'. That is what I interpret it as.
carnivore 09-15-04, 12:14 PM	a fun tactic is to cast farie fire on an opponent then cast obscuring mist, they cant target you because you have concealment...however as farie fire negates concealment , you can target them normally.... IIRC they do not get dex to AC so you can sneak attack them as well.
Lilt 09-15-04, 12:57 PM	The Doomtide spell works kindof like what carnivore suggested, but rolled into one spell. It's a 4th level spell, but it counts as several obscuring mists + a faerie fire on each enemy + a 4th-level daze on all other creatures each round. AFAIK, yes: A creature you have total concealment against is denied dex bonus to AC and thus can be sneak-attacked.
carnivore 09-15-04, 01:28 PM	good catch lilt :)
Lilt 09-16-04, 08:47 AM	Actually: Can anybody find a solid quote for this? I just looked it up and couldn't find anything either. Logically, they can't see the attacker and are thus unaware of the attack (and thus can't use deflect arrows or similar abilities) but there's still short leaps of logic between 'unable to see the attacker', 'unaware of the attack', and the goal of denying dex bonus requiring that they be 'unable to react'. Or is there?
carnivore 09-16-04, 09:24 AM	from the SRD here http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/abilitiesAndConditions.html under conditions : blinded Blinded: The character cannot see. He takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a –4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them. Invisible: Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents’ Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). (See Invisibility, under Special Abilities.) INVISIBILITY The ability to move about unseen is not foolproof. While they can’t be seen, invisible creatures can be heard, smelled, or felt. Invisibility makes a creature undetectable by vision, including darkvision. Invisibility does not, by itself, make a creature immune to critical hits, but it does make the creature immune to extra damage from being a ranger’s favored enemy and from sneak attacks. A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance). A creature can use hearing to find an invisible creature. A character can make a Listen check for this purpose as a free action each round. A Listen check result at least equal to the invisible creature’s Move Silently check result reveals its presence. (A creature with no ranks in Move Silently makes a Move Silently check as a Dexterity check to which an armor check penalty applies.) A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location. Listen Check DCs to Detect Invisible Creatures Invisible Creature Is . . . DC In combat or speaking 0 Moving at half speed Move Silently check result Moving at full speed Move Silently check result –4 Running or charging Move Silently check result –20 Some distance away +1 per 10 feet Behind an obstacle (door) +5 Behind an obstacle (stone wall) +15 A creature can grope about to find an invisible creature. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent 5-foot squares using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature’s current location. (If the invisible creature moves, its location, obviously, is once again unknown.) If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck still knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location. If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance). A particularly large and slow creature might get a smaller miss chance. If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has not pinpointed, have the player choose the space where the character will direct the attack. If the invisible creature is there, conduct the attack normally. If the enemy’s not there, roll the miss chance as if it were there, don’t let the player see the result, and tell him that the character has missed. That way the player doesn’t know whether the attack missed because the enemy’s not there or because you successfully rolled the miss chance. If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour fell off or blew away). An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible. Invisible creatures leave tracks. They can be tracked normally. Footprints in sand, mud, or other soft surfaces can give enemies clues to an invisible creature’s location. An invisible creature in the water displaces water, revealing its location. The invisible creature, however, is still hard to see and benefits from concealment. A creature with the scent ability can detect an invisible creature as it would a visible one. A creature with the Blind-Fight feat has a better chance to hit an invisible creature. Roll the miss chance twice, and he misses only if both rolls indicate a miss. (Alternatively, make one 25% miss chance roll rather than two 50% miss chance rolls.) A creature with blindsight can attack (and otherwise interact with) creatures regardless of invisibility. An invisible burning torch still gives off light, as does an invisible object with a light spell (or similar spell) cast upon it. Ethereal creatures are invisible. Since ethereal creatures are not materially present, Spot checks, Listen checks, Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don’t help locate them. Incorporeal creatures are often invisible. Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don’t help creatures find or attack invisible, incorporeal creatures, but Spot checks and possibly Listen checks can help. Invisible creatures cannot use gaze attacks. Invisibility does not thwart detect spells. Since some creatures can detect or even see invisible creatures, it is helpful to be able to hide even when invisible. so if you cant see an attacker they effecively are invisible
ronyon 09-16-04, 05:35 PM	The responses are good but they seem to be predicated on the common sense premise that having total concealment means one can't be seen. That makes sense but the RAW doesn’t seem to state that anywhere. Below are examples in red supporting total concealment as an effect that prevents detection by sight, and examples in blue that contradicts this view. From the SRD: (1)Total Concealment: If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though (2)you can attack into a square that you think he occupies Ok, first we have a reverse definition that equates the lack of line of sight plus the presence of line of effect as total concealment, then we have a hint in the word 'think', used in such away as to suggest an educated guess, necessary 'cause you can't see for yourself. (3)Concealment and Hide Checks: You can use concealment to make a Hide check. Without concealment, you usually need cover to make a Hide check. -Why do we need a hide check if we cant be seen? Maybe this is only for regular concealment, not partial concealment. Yeah duh, that makes sense… HIDE (DEX; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY) Check: Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of(4) anyone who might see you. -Ok this is also explained by applying it only to the regular concealment. (5)If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide -Uh this is just confusing. Does regular concealment prevent people from observing you? According to this and my explanation of citations 4 and 5 it would have to. And if that is so ah never mind… I think these rules need clarification, the RAW is confusing at best and I don’t think I'm helping… Btw, my formating sucks, none of the color high lights showed up from when this was composed in word, may be I'll just delete this whole post...
Saiph 09-26-04, 08:03 PM	I think the concealment affords you an opportunity to go hide elsewhere/nearby. So while they can't see you in the mist (total concealment) once it lifts, you're out of luck. So you hide...in that barrel over there. Then, when it lifts (if it does) they've gotta go find you. Basically, it's like turning out the lights in a room. If you just stand there, you aren't hiding (no matter what you say). If you hide, then you went and ducked under the table, or into the filing cabinet (which one, depends on how well you rolled...). So remember, hiding usually requires the character move.