Concealment Items [Archive] - Wizards Community

Concealment Items [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sorath
03-01-06, 10:35 PM I am playing a ninja and I am trying to find some items that can help me create a condition of concealment whereby I can make a successful (hopefully) hide check and thereby deny my target his dex bonus so I can sudden strike him.

I have seen the smoke stick and while I know this would suffice, they are a bit pricy at 20gp per stick (which is a one time use). Has anyone created a lesser item that would create concealment and perhaps affect a smaller area for a shorter duration? I was thinking about something like a powder bag that you throw down in front of you which would fill a 5'-0 cube and last for a round or 2.

With an item like that, it would not require me to light it and I could make them relatively cheaply. If no one has created an item like this, I will probably come up with something myself.

Any ideas?
ClementWillowbreaker
03-02-06, 10:01 AM Keep in mind that you cannot hide when being observed, even with cover or concealment. You need Hide in Plain Sight or to create a diversion with the Bluff skill to make your Hide check. Now, if you are tossing in a concealment effect from a hiding place, then advancing under its cover, you are fine the first time.

I suggest looking into command word items for the various Fog, Cloud, or Darkness spells. Or relying on your party members to provide them. A smokestick should be something you use to save your ass, not a round-by-round tactic.
Sorath
03-02-06, 11:00 AM The smoke stick actually creates an effect which, as it states in the PH, is as the Fog Cloud spell. The fog cloud spell grants concealment as follows: The effects obscures all sight including darkvision. Subjects within 5'-0 are granted concealment (receiving 20% miss chance). Subject greater than 5'-0 away are granted total concealment.

If you refer to the PH page 152 regarding concealment it provides the condition whereby:

"You can use concealment to make a hide check. Without concealment, you usually need cover in order to make a hide check."

So with the use of a smoke stick, you are granted concealment whereby you can make a hide check or no hide check if you have total concealment. The way my DM is handling this is that once I move out from behind the concealment, the enemies make spot checks against my hide check to notice me. If they do not notice me, then they are denied their dexterity bonus against my attacks until such time that they do notice my location. Now there may be modifiers depending on the situation. And I might not even get a hide check if there is nothing to hide me, so they're spot check might be a low DC (until such time I have HIPS due to a prestige class or something).

Invisibility works just like this except that they have no chance to get their dexterity bonus while fighting an invisible foe.

What you are thinking about with reference to HIPS is that I cannot make a hide check in the open without having some way to conceal myself, i.e. Hiding in Plain Sight. And since HIPS is not a ninja skill, I would not be able to do that. Which is the reason for using a smoke stick or some similar device.

So my question is, has anyone created a device similar to a smoke stick but less powerful and more cost efficient? I was thinking like a powder bomb that filled a 5 foot cube for 1 round and provided concealment which would allow me a hide check (unlike the smoke stick which grants total concealment to foes which are more than 5 feet away from me).
draconic_swine
03-02-06, 05:23 PM RAW, smokesticks won't allow you to make a hide check. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm):

If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.

You need cover to hide yourself when others know you are there, not the concealment that smokesticks provide. Concealment is only useful (and I use the term "only" very loosely) for hiding when your enemies aren't already aware of your presence.

Besides, if you think about it, where are you supposed to go after you've released the smoke? You can either stay concealed, in which case the enemy knows where you are, or you leave the area, in which case you'd be instantly noticed again.

However, if you want to houserule it otherwise, that's fine. As for the item you're wanting, I'd price it at 5 gp. Why? You only want it to be half the radius, cutting the price in half, and only for it to provide "regular" concealment instead of total concealment, which I would say cuts the price in half again.
Sorath
03-02-06, 05:56 PM Well that does make some sense. I misinterpreted the ruling on Concealment and Cover.

Now, it does say that you can attempt to hide if you create a diversion, where it uses the bluff skill as an example of a diversion (something like "Hey look at that dragon behind you"). But couldn't the use of a smoke stick or a powder bomb be used in such a manner? I mean if I threw the powder bomb at the space my enemy was standing in and then moved from my spot, wouldn't that give me an opportunity to hide?

Just curious, I feel like there could still be some merit and use to an item such as this. The spot skill says that sometimes an individual may not be intentionally hiding, just hard to see.

Thanks.
ClementWillowbreaker
03-02-06, 09:08 PM The reason why using the smokestick is not a diversion is because it's a standard action that does its own thing, and you need a diversion, too which is normally another standard action. Improved Diversion in the CAdv would let you use a smokestick, divert as a move action, and make a Hide check in one round (assuming you don't need more than a 5ft step to get under cover, or not move at all).

The smokestick is a lot better than I remember it, and it's definitely worth the cost. If you put all 10ft of it between you and your opponent, you don't need to distract. You can then close into the cloud, making Hide and Move Silent checks as normal under concealment, and sudden strike the next round. This would work best in narrow hallways, so your opponent couldn't maneuver around the smoke and get on your side. Ironically, if he were to dash bravely into the smoke immediately, he would probably fare better.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sorath 03-01-06, 10:35 PM	I am playing a ninja and I am trying to find some items that can help me create a condition of concealment whereby I can make a successful (hopefully) hide check and thereby deny my target his dex bonus so I can sudden strike him. I have seen the smoke stick and while I know this would suffice, they are a bit pricy at 20gp per stick (which is a one time use). Has anyone created a lesser item that would create concealment and perhaps affect a smaller area for a shorter duration? I was thinking about something like a powder bag that you throw down in front of you which would fill a 5'-0 cube and last for a round or 2. With an item like that, it would not require me to light it and I could make them relatively cheaply. If no one has created an item like this, I will probably come up with something myself. Any ideas?
ClementWillowbreaker 03-02-06, 10:01 AM	Keep in mind that you cannot hide when being observed, even with cover or concealment. You need Hide in Plain Sight or to create a diversion with the Bluff skill to make your Hide check. Now, if you are tossing in a concealment effect from a hiding place, then advancing under its cover, you are fine the first time. I suggest looking into command word items for the various Fog, Cloud, or Darkness spells. Or relying on your party members to provide them. A smokestick should be something you use to save your ass, not a round-by-round tactic.
Sorath 03-02-06, 11:00 AM	The smoke stick actually creates an effect which, as it states in the PH, is as the Fog Cloud spell. The fog cloud spell grants concealment as follows: The effects obscures all sight including darkvision. Subjects within 5'-0 are granted concealment (receiving 20% miss chance). Subject greater than 5'-0 away are granted total concealment. If you refer to the PH page 152 regarding concealment it provides the condition whereby: "You can use concealment to make a hide check. Without concealment, you usually need cover in order to make a hide check." So with the use of a smoke stick, you are granted concealment whereby you can make a hide check or no hide check if you have total concealment. The way my DM is handling this is that once I move out from behind the concealment, the enemies make spot checks against my hide check to notice me. If they do not notice me, then they are denied their dexterity bonus against my attacks until such time that they do notice my location. Now there may be modifiers depending on the situation. And I might not even get a hide check if there is nothing to hide me, so they're spot check might be a low DC (until such time I have HIPS due to a prestige class or something). Invisibility works just like this except that they have no chance to get their dexterity bonus while fighting an invisible foe. What you are thinking about with reference to HIPS is that I cannot make a hide check in the open without having some way to conceal myself, i.e. Hiding in Plain Sight. And since HIPS is not a ninja skill, I would not be able to do that. Which is the reason for using a smoke stick or some similar device. So my question is, has anyone created a device similar to a smoke stick but less powerful and more cost efficient? I was thinking like a powder bomb that filled a 5 foot cube for 1 round and provided concealment which would allow me a hide check (unlike the smoke stick which grants total concealment to foes which are more than 5 feet away from me).
draconic_swine 03-02-06, 05:23 PM	RAW, smokesticks won't allow you to make a hide check. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm): If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went. You need cover to hide yourself when others know you are there, not the concealment that smokesticks provide. Concealment is only useful (and I use the term "only" very loosely) for hiding when your enemies aren't already aware of your presence. Besides, if you think about it, where are you supposed to go after you've released the smoke? You can either stay concealed, in which case the enemy knows where you are, or you leave the area, in which case you'd be instantly noticed again. However, if you want to houserule it otherwise, that's fine. As for the item you're wanting, I'd price it at 5 gp. Why? You only want it to be half the radius, cutting the price in half, and only for it to provide "regular" concealment instead of total concealment, which I would say cuts the price in half again.
Sorath 03-02-06, 05:56 PM	Well that does make some sense. I misinterpreted the ruling on Concealment and Cover. Now, it does say that you can attempt to hide if you create a diversion, where it uses the bluff skill as an example of a diversion (something like "Hey look at that dragon behind you"). But couldn't the use of a smoke stick or a powder bomb be used in such a manner? I mean if I threw the powder bomb at the space my enemy was standing in and then moved from my spot, wouldn't that give me an opportunity to hide? Just curious, I feel like there could still be some merit and use to an item such as this. The spot skill says that sometimes an individual may not be intentionally hiding, just hard to see. Thanks.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-02-06, 09:08 PM	The reason why using the smokestick is not a diversion is because it's a standard action that does its own thing, and you need a diversion, too which is normally another standard action. Improved Diversion in the CAdv would let you use a smokestick, divert as a move action, and make a Hide check in one round (assuming you don't need more than a 5ft step to get under cover, or not move at all). The smokestick is a lot better than I remember it, and it's definitely worth the cost. If you put all 10ft of it between you and your opponent, you don't need to distract. You can then close into the cloud, making Hide and Move Silent checks as normal under concealment, and sudden strike the next round. This would work best in narrow hallways, so your opponent couldn't maneuver around the smoke and get on your side. Ironically, if he were to dash bravely into the smoke immediately, he would probably fare better.