concern about monks belt. [Archive] - Wizards Community

concern about monks belt. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ravos20
01-17-05, 05:49 PM Hiya peeps, im new to this portion of the boards. Last night i was cruising through the character opti boards and i noticed many builds using the monks belt. I looked closer and noticed that they got Wis to AC without taking any classes with that ability.

so i came over here and did a search on monks belt and found it to be true; a character with monks belt gets WIS+1 to ac when unarmored and not encumbered. So i took this up with my DM. He had a ***** fit and when i showed him the entry under the monks "AC Bonus (EX): ect ect" he argued that couldnt have possibly been the intent of the item because , well, look at the price. He was under the assumption that it just gave you the +1 AC thats on the monks AC chart. My DM tries to stick with RAW, unless it is increadibly game breaking (like the 3.0 fatespinner). He is classifying the monks belt for 13,000 gp as gamebreaking. Why wouldnt any character take a monks belt?

thats the question. Im trying to come up with examples of why a character wouldnt want a monks belt. I have already told him of the cleric with belt + Bracers of armor vs. cleric with Fullplate +shield. the latter cleric won that arguement. any other examples of why the item is so cheap (money wise) and why every friggin player on the planet wouldnt use one?

any suggestions would be appreciated :D :D
Kintara
01-17-05, 06:35 PM Well, most characters don't have huge Wisdom bonuses, so that limits the discussion mostly to Clerics. It's not a bad decision for a Cleric to take a Monk's Belt, but they can also just use armor. A +3 armor and +2 shield cost about the same, as you've seemed to point out. A Rogue wouldn't take one because a mithral chain shirt or breastplate will work better. A fighter won't be pumping Wisdom (and will probably want a Belt of Giant Strength). A Wizard or Sorcerer will be pumping their primary spellcasting score first. Plus, they get a good Will save already, so there's less incentive to pump Wisdom.

Think about it like this, there are better, cheaper, ways to get +2 to AC, so the Wisdom mod needs to be pretty high, and they need to be completely unarmored (and not want to wear a Belt of Giant's Strength). Certain Cleric builds might want to go this route, as well as certain Druid builds. It doesn't seem like a big deal, really.
PhaedrusXY
01-17-05, 06:44 PM Not all characters have a huge Wisdom bonus, which you need for this to grant you an AC higher than you can get with armor.

It costs alot more money to get a high AC using this method than it does using armor and a shield, especially for a cleric who can cast Magic Vestment.

To get the most benefit from a monk's belt, you have to buy the belt (13K) and Bracers of Armor (which are alot more expensive that comparable armor and shield). A cleric could instead just get non-magical armor and shield and cast Magic Vestment on them both, and probably wind up with just as high an AC (or nearly so). He could then use his money for other things.

The only character that this item is really great for, other than a monk, is a druid that uses Wildshape alot and gets a wilding clasp for their monk's belt. For them, it is a spectacular item. But so what? A Holy Avenger is a spectacular item for a palladin, and should actually be quite a powerful Epic weapon, if you figure out the cost for all the abilities. Does that mean it should be removed from the game, because one class benefits from it alot more than others?
DM Zoc
01-17-05, 07:10 PM It gets to be a more powerful item depending on the point-buy allowed. As has been pointed out, Wisdom modifier is rarely any higher than +2 unless you are a divine spellcaster, and divine spellcasters can all get more through actually wearing armor. The only real potential abuse comes through a wildshaped druid, and most animals can't wear belts anyway.

Personally, I like this item because it allows for the possibility of playing an unarmored swashbuckling type within the core rules.
evangelion1010
01-17-05, 08:49 PM Personally, I like this item because it allows for the possibility of playing an unarmored swashbuckling type within the core rules.

yes...the joys of finding ways to get dex, int and wisdom to AC....

Anyways, a +5 suit of armor is 25,000 - and as pointed out, if you wear heavy armor, you'll wear full plate. +13 AC for ~28000, or 8+1+ wisdom modifier for 77,000k. You'd need at least an 18 in wisdom for this to be worthwhile...

Thats not counting a shield, which can easily add another +7. Heck, you can even get a +6 armor and shield for 72,000, or get mithril full plate.

Now, at higher levels, a cleric or druid can have a wisdom of 28 fairly easily - which translates into +9 AC, or +19 with bracers. The fighter in mithril fullplate with a shield has 8+5+2+5, or 20.

The high wisdom build pays a lot to get that wisdom - and although it affects spellcasting, paying 36k for the peripat, +4 for leveling 1-16... and starting with 18 wisdom, its not undeserved.

This can also be nice with some archer builds.... since armor is bad for most abilities and with zen archery and imp. zen archery (3.0), you can get insane to hit modifiers.
darczero
01-18-05, 01:04 AM Two Words: Paragon Template. +15 Wisdom (and every other stat, for that matter...)

Other than that, the Monk's Belt usage/abuse (and most other things) on the Character Op boards is usually assuming 18's across the board to begin with, before racial modifiers are considered; add in a decent, Wis-boosting race, combine with the 18 Dex that they all assume, and then toss in a couple more 18's, and yes, the Monk's Belt can seem like a little bit of overkill. Then again, the Char Op board is all about tweaking (or sometimes ignoring) the rules to find the greatest advantages.
PhaedrusXY
01-18-05, 01:07 AM (or sometimes ignoring) As a regular of the CO board, I take exception to that remark. If there is anything they usually do over there, it is stick to the absolute letter of the rules. If you don't believe me, go post something illegal there and see how many people immediately call you on it. ;)
Kintara
01-18-05, 01:42 AM As a regular of the CO board, I take exception to that remark. If there is anything they usually do over there, it is stick to the absolute letter of the rules. If you don't believe me, go post something illegal there and see how many people immediately call you on it. ;)In fact, I think many CO posters appreciate and enjoy working within set boundaries to come up with the most optimized character for that specific situation/environment. It's easy to spit out a free-for-all build with anything going.
Ipsissimus
01-18-05, 07:21 AM There are many items both DMG and splat books that have been somewhat overpowering or just too good in the hands of the class or race it was not originally intended for. Cost to create, market value, and just apparently loop holes some designers may not have thought of in the beginning.

Subtle things to consider that I'm sure many players and DM's over look. There has never been one party member who wasn't at a medium load at one point or another, especially our casters who pump most of their ability points into prime casting, dex, and con. Add personal belongings and just coin...all of a sudden the monk's belt isn't working the right way.

I've read the posts about the belt and how it's almost better for non monks, (shrug)...there's tons of combos out there that can be exploited or made so your DM will either make the item rare or just plan bar it from the game.

There is a reason why all of a sudden, my enlarged duergar monk cannot find Shillelagh oil anymore.

If you DM doesn't like it what are you going do...you could perhaps compromise and adjust the item accordingly. If you happen to find another monk's belt can you email it to my DM so he will put it in the game? ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ravos20 01-17-05, 05:49 PM	Hiya peeps, im new to this portion of the boards. Last night i was cruising through the character opti boards and i noticed many builds using the monks belt. I looked closer and noticed that they got Wis to AC without taking any classes with that ability. so i came over here and did a search on monks belt and found it to be true; a character with monks belt gets WIS+1 to ac when unarmored and not encumbered. So i took this up with my DM. He had a ***** fit and when i showed him the entry under the monks "AC Bonus (EX): ect ect" he argued that couldnt have possibly been the intent of the item because , well, look at the price. He was under the assumption that it just gave you the +1 AC thats on the monks AC chart. My DM tries to stick with RAW, unless it is increadibly game breaking (like the 3.0 fatespinner). He is classifying the monks belt for 13,000 gp as gamebreaking. Why wouldnt any character take a monks belt? thats the question. Im trying to come up with examples of why a character wouldnt want a monks belt. I have already told him of the cleric with belt + Bracers of armor vs. cleric with Fullplate +shield. the latter cleric won that arguement. any other examples of why the item is so cheap (money wise) and why every friggin player on the planet wouldnt use one? any suggestions would be appreciated :D :D
Kintara 01-17-05, 06:35 PM	Well, most characters don't have huge Wisdom bonuses, so that limits the discussion mostly to Clerics. It's not a bad decision for a Cleric to take a Monk's Belt, but they can also just use armor. A +3 armor and +2 shield cost about the same, as you've seemed to point out. A Rogue wouldn't take one because a mithral chain shirt or breastplate will work better. A fighter won't be pumping Wisdom (and will probably want a Belt of Giant Strength). A Wizard or Sorcerer will be pumping their primary spellcasting score first. Plus, they get a good Will save already, so there's less incentive to pump Wisdom. Think about it like this, there are better, cheaper, ways to get +2 to AC, so the Wisdom mod needs to be pretty high, and they need to be completely unarmored (and not want to wear a Belt of Giant's Strength). Certain Cleric builds might want to go this route, as well as certain Druid builds. It doesn't seem like a big deal, really.
PhaedrusXY 01-17-05, 06:44 PM	Not all characters have a huge Wisdom bonus, which you need for this to grant you an AC higher than you can get with armor. It costs alot more money to get a high AC using this method than it does using armor and a shield, especially for a cleric who can cast Magic Vestment. To get the most benefit from a monk's belt, you have to buy the belt (13K) and Bracers of Armor (which are alot more expensive that comparable armor and shield). A cleric could instead just get non-magical armor and shield and cast Magic Vestment on them both, and probably wind up with just as high an AC (or nearly so). He could then use his money for other things. The only character that this item is really great for, other than a monk, is a druid that uses Wildshape alot and gets a wilding clasp for their monk's belt. For them, it is a spectacular item. But so what? A Holy Avenger is a spectacular item for a palladin, and should actually be quite a powerful Epic weapon, if you figure out the cost for all the abilities. Does that mean it should be removed from the game, because one class benefits from it alot more than others?
DM Zoc 01-17-05, 07:10 PM	It gets to be a more powerful item depending on the point-buy allowed. As has been pointed out, Wisdom modifier is rarely any higher than +2 unless you are a divine spellcaster, and divine spellcasters can all get more through actually wearing armor. The only real potential abuse comes through a wildshaped druid, and most animals can't wear belts anyway. Personally, I like this item because it allows for the possibility of playing an unarmored swashbuckling type within the core rules.
evangelion1010 01-17-05, 08:49 PM	Personally, I like this item because it allows for the possibility of playing an unarmored swashbuckling type within the core rules. yes...the joys of finding ways to get dex, int and wisdom to AC.... Anyways, a +5 suit of armor is 25,000 - and as pointed out, if you wear heavy armor, you'll wear full plate. +13 AC for ~28000, or 8+1+ wisdom modifier for 77,000k. You'd need at least an 18 in wisdom for this to be worthwhile... Thats not counting a shield, which can easily add another +7. Heck, you can even get a +6 armor and shield for 72,000, or get mithril full plate. Now, at higher levels, a cleric or druid can have a wisdom of 28 fairly easily - which translates into +9 AC, or +19 with bracers. The fighter in mithril fullplate with a shield has 8+5+2+5, or 20. The high wisdom build pays a lot to get that wisdom - and although it affects spellcasting, paying 36k for the peripat, +4 for leveling 1-16... and starting with 18 wisdom, its not undeserved. This can also be nice with some archer builds.... since armor is bad for most abilities and with zen archery and imp. zen archery (3.0), you can get insane to hit modifiers.
darczero 01-18-05, 01:04 AM	Two Words: Paragon Template. +15 Wisdom (and every other stat, for that matter...) Other than that, the Monk's Belt usage/abuse (and most other things) on the Character Op boards is usually assuming 18's across the board to begin with, before racial modifiers are considered; add in a decent, Wis-boosting race, combine with the 18 Dex that they all assume, and then toss in a couple more 18's, and yes, the Monk's Belt can seem like a little bit of overkill. Then again, the Char Op board is all about tweaking (or sometimes ignoring) the rules to find the greatest advantages.
PhaedrusXY 01-18-05, 01:07 AM	(or sometimes ignoring) As a regular of the CO board, I take exception to that remark. If there is anything they usually do over there, it is stick to the absolute letter of the rules. If you don't believe me, go post something illegal there and see how many people immediately call you on it. ;)
Kintara 01-18-05, 01:42 AM	As a regular of the CO board, I take exception to that remark. If there is anything they usually do over there, it is stick to the absolute letter of the rules. If you don't believe me, go post something illegal there and see how many people immediately call you on it. ;)In fact, I think many CO posters appreciate and enjoy working within set boundaries to come up with the most optimized character for that specific situation/environment. It's easy to spit out a free-for-all build with anything going.
Ipsissimus 01-18-05, 07:21 AM	There are many items both DMG and splat books that have been somewhat overpowering or just too good in the hands of the class or race it was not originally intended for. Cost to create, market value, and just apparently loop holes some designers may not have thought of in the beginning. Subtle things to consider that I'm sure many players and DM's over look. There has never been one party member who wasn't at a medium load at one point or another, especially our casters who pump most of their ability points into prime casting, dex, and con. Add personal belongings and just coin...all of a sudden the monk's belt isn't working the right way. I've read the posts about the belt and how it's almost better for non monks, (shrug)...there's tons of combos out there that can be exploited or made so your DM will either make the item rare or just plan bar it from the game. There is a reason why all of a sudden, my enlarged duergar monk cannot find Shillelagh oil anymore. If you DM doesn't like it what are you going do...you could perhaps compromise and adjust the item accordingly. If you happen to find another monk's belt can you email it to my DM so he will put it in the game? ;)