Concerning Critical Misses [Archive] - Wizards Community

Concerning Critical Misses [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mass_Assassin
02-13-06, 08:16 PM I really like critical misses. They add a bit of flavor to the game. They give a wry little twist to combat. They strike a little fear into the players :evillaugh . However, I don't like them to be absolute, because that just doesn't make sense. So I came up with some reasonable critical miss rules to play by. See what you think of them.

Melee Combat: If you roll a natural 1 on an attack roll with a melee weapon, roll against a DC 20, using d20 + Dex modifier + BAB. If you fail, roll a d4.
1=All attackers get an attack of opportunity.
2=You drop your weapon, as if disarmed.
3=You fall prone.
4=You get a -2 penalty on all attacks, skill checks, and AC until the end of your next turn.
Whatever the outcome of the d4, you lose the rest of your actions for that round.

Thrown Weapons: Roll against a DC20 (see above). If you fail, you overbalance, incurring a -2 penalty to attacks, skill checks, and AC until the end of your next turn, and you lose the rest of your actions for that round. (Includes slings)

Ranged Weapon: Roll a d4. If the outcome is a 1, the bow, crossbow, or otherwise becomes damaged and unusable (i.e. the string snaps, the locking mechanism breaks, etc.).
For a masterwork weapon, roll a d8 instead of a d4. A simple fumble is not enough to damage a magic weapon.

A natural 1 is an automatic miss.
Dragonteuthis
02-13-06, 08:54 PM At one time I also experimented with critical miss rules.

My ruling was that if you rolled a natural one, you had to "confirm" the critical miss. If you missed on the confirmation roll, something bad happened. I had several charts drawn up, mostly involved with losing the weapon, damaging your weapon, provoking an AoO, etc. Don't think I had any "hurt yourself" or fall prone ones.

However, I eventually ditched the entire system. It bogs down gameplay and is fun for only one person (the DM, and even then only moderately so).
JadeSpider9643
02-13-06, 09:02 PM Critical failure/fumble charts are a BAD idea. (note that little period there. It's a period, end of sentence, not a comma, there is no "but" or "usually". They are a flat out BAD idea)

A natural 1 on an attack roll is automatic failure on the attack, and even THAT can be devestating. for any high level fighter-type, espically 2 weapon fighters, the more often they make attack rolls the more likly they are to roll 1s eventually. It's bad enough that these masters of hand to hand combat have an inescapeable 5% chance of failure, but to push farther and to assign negative consequences in addition to that is pure PC abuse on the DMs part.
Waterhammer
02-13-06, 09:06 PM I like it, with the following modifications:do it like the OP stated except that a "natural" one is always a miss as the rules state. ALSO instead of rolling d4 roll d20 and have the bad effects occur on 1-4 on the d20 roll. On a roll of 5-20 the character suffers no ill effects at all; other than the auto miss.

If a game has critical hits it should also have critical misses.
draconic_swine
02-14-06, 03:10 PM We have occaisonaly played it where a natural one is always a miss, and a second roll is made. If you miss, you provoke an AoO from the person you're attacking, and this AoO doesn't count against that person's limit for the round.

Really, though, this is all up to preference. It's also the type of thing that will likely end up hurting PCs more in the long run, since due to their much greater lifespan, they're more likely to critically fumble compared to the average monster who survives only for that particular challenge.
tarkin
02-14-06, 03:30 PM There is the natural one rule in the core books.

On a natural 1, you need to make a Dex check, DC = 10, or drop the weapon.
Waterhammer
02-14-06, 09:28 PM There's somthing missing from your charts Mass_Assassin. It's the monsters. Eg.the gelatinous cube. It cannot fall prone, nor drop a weapon. Same for gibbering mouther, and all those puddings and oozes.
yourReality
02-14-06, 09:45 PM there is a fumble chart, concerning critical misses. i dont remember where i found it
it requires a d% roll after every 1 roll on an attack.
such effects include: Drop weapon, attack nearest ally, trip, stunned, dazed, etc.
Dragonteuthis
02-14-06, 10:01 PM There is the natural one rule in the core books.

On a natural 1, you need to make a Dex check, DC = 10, or drop the weapon.

That is actually an "optional" rule in the DMG. Also, it presents its' own problems. Namely, that higher-level characters, who get more attacks per round, therefore become MORE likely to drop their weapon in a given round.

Wizards don't have to worry about "dropping their spellcasting ability." Why should melee fighters have to worry about dropping their contribution to combat?
jeff-heikkinen
02-14-06, 10:37 PM My take:

Critical fumbles are either stupid or pointless, depending on the implementation.

People just don't screw up catastropically in combat that often, either in reality or in heroic fiction. So unless you're deliberately running a comedy game, fumbles must be extremely rare (vastly less common than 1 in 20; a natural 1, then another natural 1, then some sort of confirmation mechanism might give reasonable probabilities), or else have very minor effects, or perhaps even both. Making them extremely rare, or very minor in their effects, makes me question whether they're worth bothering with. If they're not rare and not minor, then they're neither realistic nor a good fit for the (decidedly unrealistic) genre D&D works in.

Fumbles that affect you on a per-attack basis, like all the systems mentioned here (including the optional DMG rule), are especially bad, because they make high-level fighters more likely to screw up than other characters just because they're better at combat, which is exactly backwards by any sane standard. Do not use them, ever, under any circumstances.
Mass_Assassin
02-14-06, 11:17 PM My take:

Critical fumbles are either stupid or pointless, depending on the implementation.

People just don't screw up catastropically in combat that often, either in reality or in heroic fiction. So unless you're deliberately running a comedy game, fumbles must be extremely rare (vastly less common than 1 in 20; a natural 1, then another natural 1, then some sort of confirmation mechanism might give reasonable probabilities), or else have very minor effects, or perhaps even both. Making them extremely rare, or very minor in their effects, makes me question whether they're worth bothering with. If they're not rare and not minor, then they're neither realistic nor a good fit for the (decidedly unrealistic) genre D&D works in.

Fumbles that affect you on a per-attack basis, like all the systems mentioned here (including the optional DMG rule), are especially bad, because they make high-level fighters more likely to screw up than other characters just because they're better at combat, which is exactly backwards by any sane standard. Do not use them, ever, under any circumstances.

There is a way around that. You get to add your Dex mod and your Base Attack bonus to the save, so high-level fighters will pretty much always avoid their fumbles.
Mass_Assassin
02-14-06, 11:21 PM There's somthing missing from your charts Mass_Assassin. It's the monsters. Eg.the gelatinous cube. It cannot fall prone, nor drop a weapon. Same for gibbering mouther, and all those puddings and oozes.

Of course, I always leave room for common sense. There's not much that an ooze can do to itself (throw itself off balance, etc.), so a natural 1 for it would just be a plain automatic miss.
Romanus_Mortus
02-14-06, 11:28 PM Critical fumbles mess with combat the same way extreme critcals do - they screw the players. Some groups might like them, but I find them to be speed bumps that just frustrate people.

Think about the raw statistics.

A player has a 5% chance to miss outright already, no matter what his ability level. I think that's pretty rough.

Even if you make critical misses a roll of two '1's in a row (which I have tried before), you still have a 1/400 chance of critically missing. That's not overly harsh, IMO, but it still works out to about ever 80 rounds of combat for a higher level character (assuming 5 attacks a round). That's only 8 minutes of game time.

Then consider that most foes lose their encounters, while most heroes survive. Then you get teh PC's faced with a far greater likelihood of eventually critically fumbling than any given monster.

No, for me the critical miss is harsh enough. And I even houserule that you have to roll a natural 1, and then roll against enemy AC and miss again (like the opposite of how a crit works), to actually miss on a 1. I just don't buy that a 20th level fighter has a 1/20 chance to miss the broad side of a barn (or a gigantic 1st level commoner, if you prefer).
xxxsammaelxxx
02-14-06, 11:31 PM We use a crit fumble, no chart tho.

A natural one means you have over extended yourself, went off balence, or otherwise attacked poorly enough to provoke an AoO.

so a Nat 1 means an AoO from your opponant.

Its simple enough that we dont need any additional rules or charts, Harmless enough that it doesnt swing the battle one way or another usually, but still scary enough to put the fear into the players when it happens.

Our group enjoys the extra drama it adds to the combat.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mass_Assassin 02-13-06, 08:16 PM	I really like critical misses. They add a bit of flavor to the game. They give a wry little twist to combat. They strike a little fear into the players :evillaugh . However, I don't like them to be absolute, because that just doesn't make sense. So I came up with some reasonable critical miss rules to play by. See what you think of them. Melee Combat: If you roll a natural 1 on an attack roll with a melee weapon, roll against a DC 20, using d20 + Dex modifier + BAB. If you fail, roll a d4. 1=All attackers get an attack of opportunity. 2=You drop your weapon, as if disarmed. 3=You fall prone. 4=You get a -2 penalty on all attacks, skill checks, and AC until the end of your next turn. Whatever the outcome of the d4, you lose the rest of your actions for that round. Thrown Weapons: Roll against a DC20 (see above). If you fail, you overbalance, incurring a -2 penalty to attacks, skill checks, and AC until the end of your next turn, and you lose the rest of your actions for that round. (Includes slings) Ranged Weapon: Roll a d4. If the outcome is a 1, the bow, crossbow, or otherwise becomes damaged and unusable (i.e. the string snaps, the locking mechanism breaks, etc.). For a masterwork weapon, roll a d8 instead of a d4. A simple fumble is not enough to damage a magic weapon. A natural 1 is an automatic miss.
Dragonteuthis 02-13-06, 08:54 PM	At one time I also experimented with critical miss rules. My ruling was that if you rolled a natural one, you had to "confirm" the critical miss. If you missed on the confirmation roll, something bad happened. I had several charts drawn up, mostly involved with losing the weapon, damaging your weapon, provoking an AoO, etc. Don't think I had any "hurt yourself" or fall prone ones. However, I eventually ditched the entire system. It bogs down gameplay and is fun for only one person (the DM, and even then only moderately so).
JadeSpider9643 02-13-06, 09:02 PM	Critical failure/fumble charts are a BAD idea. (note that little period there. It's a period, end of sentence, not a comma, there is no "but" or "usually". They are a flat out BAD idea) A natural 1 on an attack roll is automatic failure on the attack, and even THAT can be devestating. for any high level fighter-type, espically 2 weapon fighters, the more often they make attack rolls the more likly they are to roll 1s eventually. It's bad enough that these masters of hand to hand combat have an inescapeable 5% chance of failure, but to push farther and to assign negative consequences in addition to that is pure PC abuse on the DMs part.
Waterhammer 02-13-06, 09:06 PM	I like it, with the following modifications:do it like the OP stated except that a "natural" one is always a miss as the rules state. ALSO instead of rolling d4 roll d20 and have the bad effects occur on 1-4 on the d20 roll. On a roll of 5-20 the character suffers no ill effects at all; other than the auto miss. If a game has critical hits it should also have critical misses.
draconic_swine 02-14-06, 03:10 PM	We have occaisonaly played it where a natural one is always a miss, and a second roll is made. If you miss, you provoke an AoO from the person you're attacking, and this AoO doesn't count against that person's limit for the round. Really, though, this is all up to preference. It's also the type of thing that will likely end up hurting PCs more in the long run, since due to their much greater lifespan, they're more likely to critically fumble compared to the average monster who survives only for that particular challenge.
tarkin 02-14-06, 03:30 PM	There is the natural one rule in the core books. On a natural 1, you need to make a Dex check, DC = 10, or drop the weapon.
Waterhammer 02-14-06, 09:28 PM	There's somthing missing from your charts Mass_Assassin. It's the monsters. Eg.the gelatinous cube. It cannot fall prone, nor drop a weapon. Same for gibbering mouther, and all those puddings and oozes.
yourReality 02-14-06, 09:45 PM	there is a fumble chart, concerning critical misses. i dont remember where i found it it requires a d% roll after every 1 roll on an attack. such effects include: Drop weapon, attack nearest ally, trip, stunned, dazed, etc.
Dragonteuthis 02-14-06, 10:01 PM	There is the natural one rule in the core books. On a natural 1, you need to make a Dex check, DC = 10, or drop the weapon. That is actually an "optional" rule in the DMG. Also, it presents its' own problems. Namely, that higher-level characters, who get more attacks per round, therefore become MORE likely to drop their weapon in a given round. Wizards don't have to worry about "dropping their spellcasting ability." Why should melee fighters have to worry about dropping their contribution to combat?
jeff-heikkinen 02-14-06, 10:37 PM	My take: Critical fumbles are either stupid or pointless, depending on the implementation. People just don't screw up catastropically in combat that often, either in reality or in heroic fiction. So unless you're deliberately running a comedy game, fumbles must be extremely rare (vastly less common than 1 in 20; a natural 1, then another natural 1, then some sort of confirmation mechanism might give reasonable probabilities), or else have very minor effects, or perhaps even both. Making them extremely rare, or very minor in their effects, makes me question whether they're worth bothering with. If they're not rare and not minor, then they're neither realistic nor a good fit for the (decidedly unrealistic) genre D&D works in. Fumbles that affect you on a per-attack basis, like all the systems mentioned here (including the optional DMG rule), are especially bad, because they make high-level fighters more likely to screw up than other characters just because they're better at combat, which is exactly backwards by any sane standard. Do not use them, ever, under any circumstances.
Mass_Assassin 02-14-06, 11:17 PM	My take: Critical fumbles are either stupid or pointless, depending on the implementation. People just don't screw up catastropically in combat that often, either in reality or in heroic fiction. So unless you're deliberately running a comedy game, fumbles must be extremely rare (vastly less common than 1 in 20; a natural 1, then another natural 1, then some sort of confirmation mechanism might give reasonable probabilities), or else have very minor effects, or perhaps even both. Making them extremely rare, or very minor in their effects, makes me question whether they're worth bothering with. If they're not rare and not minor, then they're neither realistic nor a good fit for the (decidedly unrealistic) genre D&D works in. Fumbles that affect you on a per-attack basis, like all the systems mentioned here (including the optional DMG rule), are especially bad, because they make high-level fighters more likely to screw up than other characters just because they're better at combat, which is exactly backwards by any sane standard. Do not use them, ever, under any circumstances. There is a way around that. You get to add your Dex mod and your Base Attack bonus to the save, so high-level fighters will pretty much always avoid their fumbles.
Mass_Assassin 02-14-06, 11:21 PM	There's somthing missing from your charts Mass_Assassin. It's the monsters. Eg.the gelatinous cube. It cannot fall prone, nor drop a weapon. Same for gibbering mouther, and all those puddings and oozes. Of course, I always leave room for common sense. There's not much that an ooze can do to itself (throw itself off balance, etc.), so a natural 1 for it would just be a plain automatic miss.
Romanus_Mortus 02-14-06, 11:28 PM	Critical fumbles mess with combat the same way extreme critcals do - they screw the players. Some groups might like them, but I find them to be speed bumps that just frustrate people. Think about the raw statistics. A player has a 5% chance to miss outright already, no matter what his ability level. I think that's pretty rough. Even if you make critical misses a roll of two '1's in a row (which I have tried before), you still have a 1/400 chance of critically missing. That's not overly harsh, IMO, but it still works out to about ever 80 rounds of combat for a higher level character (assuming 5 attacks a round). That's only 8 minutes of game time. Then consider that most foes lose their encounters, while most heroes survive. Then you get teh PC's faced with a far greater likelihood of eventually critically fumbling than any given monster. No, for me the critical miss is harsh enough. And I even houserule that you have to roll a natural 1, and then roll against enemy AC and miss again (like the opposite of how a crit works), to actually miss on a 1. I just don't buy that a 20th level fighter has a 1/20 chance to miss the broad side of a barn (or a gigantic 1st level commoner, if you prefer).
xxxsammaelxxx 02-14-06, 11:31 PM	We use a crit fumble, no chart tho. A natural one means you have over extended yourself, went off balence, or otherwise attacked poorly enough to provoke an AoO. so a Nat 1 means an AoO from your opponant. Its simple enough that we dont need any additional rules or charts, Harmless enough that it doesnt swing the battle one way or another usually, but still scary enough to put the fear into the players when it happens. Our group enjoys the extra drama it adds to the combat.