Confused about bucklers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Confused about bucklers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Darastin
12-07-04, 07:32 AM Once upon a time, I thought: It's easy. If you use a weapon in your off-hand or a two-handed weapon, you are at -1 to hit and don't get the AC bonus. Plain and simple.

Then there was Complete Warrior with the Improved Buckler Defense feat, and I thought: Well, if you want to keep the buckler's AC bonus, take the feat. Doesn't get rid of the -1 to hit but you cant have everything. Very well.

Then I took a closer look at IBD: It only says "weapon in your off-hand", so it won't help with a two-handed weapon. In game terminology, using a weapon in your off-hand does not include two-handed weapons. So if you're a Drizzt clone, it works, if you're a Krusk clone, it won't. But is that fair?

And then I read the buckler's description again:
This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.

It's the last sentence that confuses me. This is the part where it says that you lose the AC bonus, but it only mentions a weapon in your off-hand; while the part about the penalties mentions both a weapon in your off-hand and two-handed weapons.

I did a search on these boards and found several threads where it was said that when wielding a two-handen weapon, you lose the AC bonus unless you take IBD. None of these threads, however, mentioned that last sentence from the buckler description.

Basically, by the RAW you still keep the buckler's shiled bonus when using a two-handed weapon. But that just feels wrong.

So, did I miss something?

Thanks in andance;
Darastin
CruelDM
12-07-04, 08:22 AM If a weapon is two-handed it is wielded in both hands, normally your primary and your off-hand. A bucklers AC is lost if you use a weapon in the off-hand or use your off-hand with a two-handed weapon without the imp. buckler defense feat. That is, of course, unless you have 3 or more hands with which to wield a two handed weapon and leave your off-hand free.

Once you have IBD you no longer have to worry about losing the AC bonus, but you still take the -1 to attacks.
Ipsissimus
12-07-04, 08:27 AM I think because so many of us are focused on numbers that we miss the logical sense of how things could work.

Say for instance you have a great sword and a buckler, and you're trying to deflect an incoming attack. You can pretty much use any part of the blade to try and deflect or block it along with the buckler which is now part of one of your forearms. Hence the +1 to AC...and -1 to AC because generally having the extra weight or encumberance you won't be able to swing the sword as efficiently.

Just think when you're in combat you're not just making one attack per roll, you and your opponant(s) are fencing back and forth in their 5ft square trying to find an opening. When they actually hit or miss that's the time you roll and see if all that work paid off. Having a buckler in that mix only makes it harder for each other you (-1) to hit or not get hit.

Not all the feats/rules seem right even though they are in accordance to the rules.
Thorak
12-07-04, 08:28 AM Like CruelDM said, a weapon in both hands is "a weapon in the off hand". It's also, at the same time, in the primary hand, but the text doesn't require that it not be.
pyro_cat
12-07-04, 09:13 AM now what if the buckler is masterwork... could that remove the -1 penalty? is the -1 penalty an armour check penalty, or just a seperate penalty for using a shield and a weapon in the same hand?
pyro_cat
12-07-04, 09:20 AM now what if the buckler is masterwork... could that remove the -1 penalty? is the -1 penalty an armour check penalty, or just a seperate penalty for using a shield and a weapon in the same hand?
Nyferto
12-07-04, 09:32 AM No its an imposed penalty for using a weapon with the buckler equiped, like TWF or composite bows with under str requirements.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Darastin 12-07-04, 07:32 AM	Once upon a time, I thought: It's easy. If you use a weapon in your off-hand or a two-handed weapon, you are at -1 to hit and don't get the AC bonus. Plain and simple. Then there was Complete Warrior with the Improved Buckler Defense feat, and I thought: Well, if you want to keep the buckler's AC bonus, take the feat. Doesn't get rid of the -1 to hit but you cant have everything. Very well. Then I took a closer look at IBD: It only says "weapon in your off-hand", so it won't help with a two-handed weapon. In game terminology, using a weapon in your off-hand does not include two-handed weapons. So if you're a Drizzt clone, it works, if you're a Krusk clone, it won't. But is that fair? And then I read the buckler's description again: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round. It's the last sentence that confuses me. This is the part where it says that you lose the AC bonus, but it only mentions a weapon in your off-hand; while the part about the penalties mentions both a weapon in your off-hand and two-handed weapons. I did a search on these boards and found several threads where it was said that when wielding a two-handen weapon, you lose the AC bonus unless you take IBD. None of these threads, however, mentioned that last sentence from the buckler description. Basically, by the RAW you still keep the buckler's shiled bonus when using a two-handed weapon. But that just feels wrong. So, did I miss something? Thanks in andance; Darastin
CruelDM 12-07-04, 08:22 AM	If a weapon is two-handed it is wielded in both hands, normally your primary and your off-hand. A bucklers AC is lost if you use a weapon in the off-hand or use your off-hand with a two-handed weapon without the imp. buckler defense feat. That is, of course, unless you have 3 or more hands with which to wield a two handed weapon and leave your off-hand free. Once you have IBD you no longer have to worry about losing the AC bonus, but you still take the -1 to attacks.
Ipsissimus 12-07-04, 08:27 AM	I think because so many of us are focused on numbers that we miss the logical sense of how things could work. Say for instance you have a great sword and a buckler, and you're trying to deflect an incoming attack. You can pretty much use any part of the blade to try and deflect or block it along with the buckler which is now part of one of your forearms. Hence the +1 to AC...and -1 to AC because generally having the extra weight or encumberance you won't be able to swing the sword as efficiently. Just think when you're in combat you're not just making one attack per roll, you and your opponant(s) are fencing back and forth in their 5ft square trying to find an opening. When they actually hit or miss that's the time you roll and see if all that work paid off. Having a buckler in that mix only makes it harder for each other you (-1) to hit or not get hit. Not all the feats/rules seem right even though they are in accordance to the rules.
Thorak 12-07-04, 08:28 AM	Like CruelDM said, a weapon in both hands is "a weapon in the off hand". It's also, at the same time, in the primary hand, but the text doesn't require that it not be.
pyro_cat 12-07-04, 09:13 AM	now what if the buckler is masterwork... could that remove the -1 penalty? is the -1 penalty an armour check penalty, or just a seperate penalty for using a shield and a weapon in the same hand?
pyro_cat 12-07-04, 09:20 AM	now what if the buckler is masterwork... could that remove the -1 penalty? is the -1 penalty an armour check penalty, or just a seperate penalty for using a shield and a weapon in the same hand?
Nyferto 12-07-04, 09:32 AM	No its an imposed penalty for using a weapon with the buckler equiped, like TWF or composite bows with under str requirements.